Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 1109162

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Re: AP's and relief

Posted by undopaminergic on March 25, 2020, at 4:47:32

In reply to Re: AP's and relief, posted by Lamdage22 on March 25, 2020, at 3:06:53

> Hi undopaminergic,

Hi!

> i am trying to avoid tardive dyskinesia and Sulprid or Amisulpride is notorious for that. And the reviews of Tiapride are not the best.
>

I don't agree tardive dyskinesia (TD) is at all common with sulpiride or amisulpride. In fact it is rare even with the old typicals.

This is an interesting report on TD with quetiapine (Seroquel):
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19673087
It is particularly interesting because there was no TD with amisulpride but after switching to quetiapine it manifested, and the TD worsened after switching to ziprasidone. All of these drugs are atypical APs.

There are obviously individual vulnerabilities at play here. TD cannot be predicted, and it seems that it can happen with any AP, including clozapine:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5560019/
In this study, the patient developed TD after more than 6 years of clozapine. It does not make intuitive sense.

> I can live with the side effects. I can't live with tardive dyskinesia and disfigurement because of tics.
>

I agree it would be most unfortunate. That is another reason to minimise exposure to APs.

> Long term I am planning to come off of Seroquel. I just reduced it from 800 to 700.
>

Oh, I'm glad to hear that. Your signature still says 900 mg.

> Sometimes doing nothing with meds is better. Or do you find that the "trymania" here leads to success very often?
>

Most suggestions made here are not implemented, and in most cases, the individual is lost to follow-up. I don't think the success rate of suggestions here are worse than the trials done by psychiatrists, but quite possibly better.

-undopaminergic

 

Re: AP's and relief

Posted by Lamdage22 on March 25, 2020, at 4:54:54

In reply to Re: AP's and relief, posted by undopaminergic on March 25, 2020, at 4:47:32

I don't think that either. Yeah, i didn't have any problems going from 800 to 700 but I was on 800 for months. I started out at 900. Amisulpride can have a mood brightening effect which would be an advantage. Also less weight gain. But the weight gain is under good control! So the only arguments left would be less sedation and more mood brightening.

Hmm. I don't know. I did get symptoms from Haldol. I had Face spasm. Also I am very prone to Akathisia. Thats why I remain sceptical.

> I don't think the success rate of suggestions here are worse than the trials done by psychiatrists, but quite possibly better.

 

Re: AP's and relief

Posted by undopaminergic on March 25, 2020, at 4:57:24

In reply to Re: AP's and relief, posted by Lamdage22 on March 25, 2020, at 4:47:05

> If you want to say it like this, maybe. I got addicted to not being depressed and the euphoria and I had no idea what psychosis even is, so I didn't recognize. It was very destructive. I don't have Psychosis now but I do take tons of Neuroleptics. I was on MAOI not just once. I wasn't always psychotic on it but it always ended that way. The first diagnosis after Phenelzine was Phenelzine induced Psychosis.
>
> I have lost friends due to this. Manic/psychotic and greatly reduced social anxiety but this combination wasn't helpful for my relationships!
>
> There is no way to prove that i wouldn't have been psychotic if i hadn't tried Nardil, but it seems likely. You can't prove the opposite either!
>

Sorry you had to quit the MAOI, especially as it sounds like it was very effective for your depression.

Did stopping the phenelzine make the psychosis either better or worse?

-undopaminergic

 

Re: AP's and relief

Posted by Lamdage22 on March 25, 2020, at 4:58:47

In reply to Re: AP's and relief, posted by undopaminergic on March 25, 2020, at 4:57:24

Better! At least in the long run. Yeah it was tough to give up but necessary. I should have quit the first time I had Psychosis on it.

 

Re: AP's and relief

Posted by Lamdage22 on March 25, 2020, at 5:04:34

In reply to Re: AP's and relief, posted by Lamdage22 on March 25, 2020, at 4:58:47

Im a big friend of getting blood work and optimizing nutrients. I had several deficiencies. I should have done that in the first place. And if I had been given my current Antidepresant regimen right away, things would be MUCH better. The combination of these two things would have been the sweet spot. But you can't know in advance! That is the problem.

 

Re: AP's and relief

Posted by undopaminergic on March 25, 2020, at 5:12:31

In reply to Re: AP's and relief, posted by Lamdage22 on March 25, 2020, at 4:54:54

> I don't think that either. Yeah, i didn't have any problems going from 800 to 700 but I was on 800 for months. I started out at 900. Amisulpride can have a mood brightening effect which would be an advantage. Also less weight gain. But the weight gain is under good control! So the only arguments left would be less sedation and more mood brightening.
>
> Hmm. I don't know. I did get symptoms from Haldol. I had Face spasm. Also I am very prone to Akathisia. Thats why I remain sceptical.
>

I had a kind of neck-spasm on mirtazapine. These things happen, I don't mean to claim otherwise, but I'm trying to put it into perspective.

In my experience, you can get the antidepressive effect from sulpiride too. Amisulpride is not available where I live, which is why I tried sulpiride first, and got tolerance to the stimulating/antidepressant effect. I bought amisulpride (Solian) on the Internet in the hope that it might work better, but it didn't.

Flupenthixol has antidepressant effects (typically 0.5 to 1 mg for this purpose), but I did not have success with it.

And a bunch of atypicals have been approved for adjunctive uses in depression. This means they are better than placebo.

-undopaminergic

 

Re: AP's and relief

Posted by undopaminergic on March 25, 2020, at 5:17:40

In reply to Re: AP's and relief, posted by Lamdage22 on March 25, 2020, at 4:58:47

> Better! At least in the long run. Yeah it was tough to give up but necessary. I should have quit the first time I had Psychosis on it.
>

How long did it take to get the psychosis under control? Did you have to try many APs?

-undopaminergic

 

Re: AP's and relief

Posted by Lamdage22 on March 25, 2020, at 5:22:23

In reply to Re: AP's and relief, posted by undopaminergic on March 25, 2020, at 5:17:40

4 months for overly psychotic symptoms, one year for more subtle symptoms. Then it took several years to really beat the post psychotic depression. The shame and guilt for how I behaved still remains.

 

Re: AP's and relief

Posted by undopaminergic on March 25, 2020, at 5:25:28

In reply to Re: AP's and relief, posted by Lamdage22 on March 25, 2020, at 5:04:34

> Im a big friend of getting blood work and optimizing nutrients. I had several deficiencies. I should have done that in the first place. And if I had been given my current Antidepresant regimen right away, things would be MUCH better. The combination of these two things would have been the sweet spot. But you can't know in advance! That is the problem.
>

Right. There are doctors who specialise in this kind of thing. It would be interesting to work with one.

If anything, I regret that I have been unable to try MAOIs, and that I have taken so long before I tried my first TCA. I have mixed feelings about reboxetine (Edronax). It was helpful at the time, but I now have "tardive" depersonalisation due to it.

-undopaminergic

 

Re: AP's and relief

Posted by Lamdage22 on March 25, 2020, at 5:25:33

In reply to Re: AP's and relief, posted by Lamdage22 on March 25, 2020, at 5:22:23

I was much less belligerent right away after stopping though. Like I said: It didn't help.

 

Re: AP's and relief

Posted by Lamdage22 on March 25, 2020, at 5:31:58

In reply to Re: AP's and relief, posted by undopaminergic on March 25, 2020, at 5:25:28

You mean nutrients? Yeah I work with one

> Right. There are doctors who specialise in this kind of thing. It would be interesting to work with one.

But you could have reacted the way I did. You never know. I think it is good that other meds are tried first. I think the first thing if somebody is initially depressed should be testing for nutrient deficiencies. Then therapy to see if history and surroundings contribute to the problem. If both can be anwered with "no", you can then try meds. And not right away MAOI. Just my two cents!

> If anything, I regret that I have been unable to try MAOIs, and that I have taken so long before I tried my first TCA. I have mixed feelings about reboxetine (Edronax). It was helpful at the time, but I now have "tardive" depersonalisation due to it.

 

Re: AP's and relief

Posted by undopaminergic on March 25, 2020, at 5:32:12

In reply to Re: AP's and relief, posted by Lamdage22 on March 25, 2020, at 5:22:23

> 4 months for overly psychotic symptoms, one year for more subtle symptoms. Then it took several years to really beat the post psychotic depression. The shame and guilt for how I behaved still remains.
>

My hallucinations resolved quickly, and have not come back yet, more than 10 years later. Some of the delusions took a long time.

Then again, I have not particularly been working on all of the delusions, but only the negative (eg. paranoid) ones. Things like "I have all the time in the world" I have even been deliberately cultivating in the interest of positive thinking.

-undopaminergic

 

Re: AP's and relief

Posted by undopaminergic on March 25, 2020, at 5:43:58

In reply to Re: AP's and relief, posted by Lamdage22 on March 25, 2020, at 5:31:58

I mean nutrients, vitamins, herbals, and supplements.

> You mean nutrients? Yeah I work with one
>
> > Right. There are doctors who specialise in this kind of thing. It would be interesting to work with one.
>

----

I went to a psychologist, before the drugs (except for caffeine). She kind of "diagnosed" a mild depression, and she arranged for me to see a doctor, who then prescribed a SSRI.

But the talk therapy was not intense enough to expect much effect. I mean that once of twice a months is not enough.

Yeah, I suppose anyone is at risk of responding to MAOIs the way you did, but we never can predict that.

I am of the opinion that the approach to treating mental disorders should be multi-modal. You should use psychopharmacology in addition to psychotherapy for best effects. Some drugs can even facilitate psychotherapy. And of course you should address vitamin and mineral deficiencies if you have them. Hormones too.

> But you could have reacted the way I did. You never know. I think it is good that other meds are tried first. I think the first thing if somebody is initially depressed should be testing for nutrient deficiencies. Then therapy to see if history and surroundings contribute to the problem. If both can be anwered with "no", you can then try meds. And not right away MAOI. Just my two cents!
>
> > If anything, I regret that I have been unable to try MAOIs, and that I have taken so long before I tried my first TCA. I have mixed feelings about reboxetine (Edronax). It was helpful at the time, but I now have "tardive" depersonalisation due to it.
>
>

 

Re: AP's and relief

Posted by Lamdage22 on March 25, 2020, at 5:58:55

In reply to Re: AP's and relief, posted by undopaminergic on March 25, 2020, at 5:43:58

There is no one size fits all. Someone who is completely delusional cant do real therapy.

 

Re: AP's and relief

Posted by undopaminergic on March 25, 2020, at 7:50:32

In reply to Re: AP's and relief, posted by Lamdage22 on March 25, 2020, at 5:58:55

> There is no one size fits all. Someone who is completely delusional cant do real therapy.
>

That's what I meant by using psychopharmacology to facilitate psychotherapy.

In your example, you would first use APs to get the worst of the psychosis under control, and then you would initiate psychotherapy.

Another example is that a person who is too apathetic (or has alogia) will have nothing to say in therapy, so you could use a stimulant to ameliorate the apathy first.

-undopaminergic

 

Re: AP's and relief

Posted by Lamdage22 on March 25, 2020, at 11:29:07

In reply to Re: AP's and relief, posted by undopaminergic on March 25, 2020, at 7:50:32

True, true. However i wonder if that is the case for so many people.

 

Re: AP's and relief

Posted by Lamdage22 on March 25, 2020, at 11:40:35

In reply to Re: AP's and relief, posted by undopaminergic on March 25, 2020, at 7:50:32

True, true. However i wonder if that is the case for so many people.

 

Re: AP's and relief

Posted by Lamdage22 on March 25, 2020, at 11:46:26

In reply to Re: AP's and relief, posted by Lamdage22 on March 25, 2020, at 11:40:35

Yeah, my relationship with meds is complicated due to this MAOI experience. Meds scare me.

 

Re: AP's and relief

Posted by undopaminergic on March 25, 2020, at 12:13:47

In reply to Re: AP's and relief, posted by Lamdage22 on March 25, 2020, at 11:29:07

> True, true. However i wonder if that is the case for so many people.

Everyone who has an opinion says that the combination (of drugs and psychological measures) is best, but in practice, this approach is not used as much as it should be.

-undopaminergic

 

Re: AP's and relief

Posted by undopaminergic on March 25, 2020, at 13:20:41

In reply to Re: AP's and relief, posted by Lamdage22 on March 25, 2020, at 11:46:26

> Yeah, my relationship with meds is complicated due to this MAOI experience. Meds scare me.
>

I should probably be more "afraid" than I am, given that I have experienced neurotoxic effects from PEA abuse and "tardive" depersonalisation from reboxetine.

Actually, I've been using "tardive" wrong. I thought it meant "persistent" but it is actually "late-occurring". My apologies!

My persistent depersonalisation actually happened almost right away with reboxetine. Partially lasting to this day, which is more than 15 years later.

-undopaminergic

 

Re: AP's and relief

Posted by Lamdage22 on March 25, 2020, at 13:45:39

In reply to Re: AP's and relief, posted by undopaminergic on March 25, 2020, at 13:20:41

Hmm that sounds really tough.

 

Re: AP's and relief

Posted by rjlockhart37 on March 25, 2020, at 23:16:16

In reply to AP's and relief, posted by rjlockhart37 on March 22, 2020, at 16:31:30

right now i take zyprexa and seroquel, and prozac, they are definitely more preferable than diazepam. It's aspirin, you know like headaches, well its just like taking aspirin, does not totally relieve anxiety

 

Re: AP's and relief

Posted by Lamdage22 on March 26, 2020, at 4:03:13

In reply to Re: AP's and relief, posted by rjlockhart37 on March 25, 2020, at 23:16:16

Do you have weight gain?

 

Re: AP's and relief

Posted by undopaminergic on March 26, 2020, at 5:09:27

In reply to Re: AP's and relief, posted by Lamdage22 on March 25, 2020, at 13:45:39

> Hmm that sounds really tough.

Objectively, yes, subjectively, I'm so used to it that I scarcely notice.

-undopaminergic

 

Re: AP's and relief » Lamdage22

Posted by rjlockhart37 on March 26, 2020, at 14:07:38

In reply to Re: AP's and relief, posted by Lamdage22 on March 26, 2020, at 4:03:13

actually no, that's surprising, but i've been on zyprexa for years, and at first when i started it, yes there was weight gain. But ... very surprisingly, i date moderate amount of both, there is no weight gain. I just stay at the same place, which very unusual.

just forget about the benzos crap wrote about, anti-psychosis meds are very calming and at times better than benzos. diazepam doesn't do sh*t for me nad i'm serious, that's why i posted APs are better


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