Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 1108778

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Re: Medicines/Supplement that might help 4 coronavirus beckett2

Posted by sigismund on March 4, 2020, at 12:40:25

In reply to Re: Medicines/Supplement that might help 4 coronavirus sigismund, posted by beckett2 on March 4, 2020, at 1:50:42

Yes, I am taking it now. For discomfort. I've no idea about CV.

 

Re: Medicines/Supplement that might help 4 coronavirus

Posted by PeterMartin on March 4, 2020, at 14:28:49

In reply to Re: Medicines/Supplement that might help 4 coronavirus, posted by undopaminergic on March 4, 2020, at 7:57:24

> > > Palmitoylethanolamide (PEA) ...
> >
> > I need to look into this one more. It's bizarre but I came across it a few weeks ago but I can't remember why. At first I thought it was the other PEA that you can't take w MAOis. Confusing they have the same abreviation.
> >
>
> Phenylethylamine, yes. You can take it with MAOIs with caution. Its mechanism of action is the same as for amphetamines.
>
> -undopaminergic
>
>

Right but this is a -different- PEA. It's not phenylalanine it's Palmitoylethanolamide. Both are abbreviated PEA.

The one that could be helpful again viruses is Palmitoylethanolamide.

 

Re: Medicines/Supplement that might help 4 coronavirus

Posted by alexandra_k on March 4, 2020, at 18:33:50

In reply to Re: Medicines/Supplement that might help 4 coronavirus, posted by Lamdage22 on March 4, 2020, at 1:58:34

> I am taking this and it may be the reason why I am still in the (home)gym. I'm a veteran of elbow tendonitis and this time, I was able to avert the full-blown elbow tendonitis and I am still working out.

Have you tried foam rolling (firmly massaging) your triceps and also the muscles on the meaty part of your forearm?

I just say this because sometimes runners experience 'shin splits' or a sort of nagging irritation that can be relieved somewhat by foam rolling / massaging the front of their shin (tibialis anterior).

And sometimes nagging irritations around the elbow region can be linked (in part) to tight muscles in the triceps region, particularly.

I have personally found that when I have elbow irritation it is fixed up by foam rolling my triceps that tend to get a bit over-active from my overhead pressing.

just a thought.

 

Re: Medicines/Supplement that might help 4 coronavirus

Posted by beckett2 on March 4, 2020, at 21:31:37

In reply to Medicines/Supplement that might help 4 coronavirus, posted by PeterMartin on March 3, 2020, at 13:15:00

This channel I subscribe discusses a study on Vit D and viruses. Tne upshot is daily doses (not high)has a beneficial effect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmqgGwT6bw0

Here is the study he discusses:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6121423/pdf/ijms-19-02419.pdf

 

Re: Medicines/Supplement that might help 4 coronavirus

Posted by beckett2 on March 4, 2020, at 21:32:27

In reply to Re: Medicines/Supplement that might help 4 coronavirus beckett2, posted by sigismund on March 4, 2020, at 12:40:25

> Yes, I am taking it now. For discomfort. I've no idea about CV.

Does it help?

 

Re: Medicines/Supplement that might help 4 coronavirus

Posted by sigismund on March 5, 2020, at 0:10:11

In reply to Re: Medicines/Supplement that might help 4 coronavirus, posted by beckett2 on March 4, 2020, at 21:32:27

>Does it help?

I have so many different types of discomfort I thought it should help one of them.

oooooohhhhhh, yes rather than no, I guess.

 

Re: Medicines/Supplement that might help 4 coronavirus

Posted by PeterMartin on March 5, 2020, at 1:14:28

In reply to Re: Medicines/Supplement that might help 4 coronavirus, posted by Lamdage22 on March 4, 2020, at 1:58:34

> I am taking this and it may be the reason why I am still in the (home)gym. I'm a veteran of elbow tendonitis and this time, I was able to avert the full-blown elbow tendonitis and I am still working out.

I searched this just now and found your earlier post about (palmitoylethanolamide) from last November.

Are you still losing weight w/ it?

Do you think it could be a risk for manic breaks? Or does it not really seem to affect your mood much?

I'm currently taking Marplan (MAOi) so I wouldn't want to take anything that could be extremely risky but the research makes it tempting at this moment.

 

Re: Medicines/Supplement that might help 4 coronavirus

Posted by PeterMartin on March 5, 2020, at 1:23:18

In reply to Re: Medicines/Supplement that might help 4 coronavirus, posted by PeterMartin on March 5, 2020, at 1:14:28

n/m this seems to suggest palmitoylethanolamide supplementation could pose some risk for bipolars of which I am one.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15622975.2018.1449966

Don't need a manic episode right now so unless I"m reading that wrong this is one sup I'll skip. It's interesting that pot has almost always been in my system when I've gone manic (many times from '99 to '09). Ever since I stopped in 2009 I've only had had one break in 2015 when I had to discontinue Marplan and started Belviq (now off the market).


==
Familial abnormalities of endocannabinoid signaling in schizophrenia
=
Objectives: Epidemiological and experimental evidence suggests that the endocannabinoid system plays a pathophysiological role in schizophrenia. This is reflected by elevated cerebrospinal levels of the endocannabinoid anandamide in schizophrenia and its initial prodromal states.

Methods: We analyzed plasma concentrations of anandamide, 2-arachidonoyl-sn-glycerol, palmitoylethanolamide and oleoylethanolamide from 25 twin pairs discordant for schizophrenia, six discordant for bipolar disorder and eight healthy twin pairs to determine hereditary traits.

Results: Twin pairs discordant for schizophrenia or bipolar disorder had significantly higher levels of anandamide and palmitoylethanolamide compared to healthy twins (both P&#8201;<&#8201;0.002). Non-affected twins discordant for schizophrenia, who developed a psychotic disorder within 5 years follow-up showed lower anandamide (P&#8201;=&#8201;0.042) and 2-arachidonoyl-sn-glycerol levels (P&#8201;=&#8201;0.049) than twins who remained healthy.

Conclusions: We suggest that the protective upregulation of endocannabinoid signalling reflects either a hereditary trait or mirrors a modulating response to genetically influenced cerebral function involving, e.g., other neurotransmitters or energy metabolism.

 

Re: Medicines/Supplement that might help 4 coronavirus

Posted by undopaminergic on March 5, 2020, at 3:11:02

In reply to Re: Medicines/Supplement that might help 4 coronavirus, posted by PeterMartin on March 4, 2020, at 14:28:49

> > > > Palmitoylethanolamide (PEA) ...
> > >
> > > I need to look into this one more. It's bizarre but I came across it a few weeks ago but I can't remember why. At first I thought it was the other PEA that you can't take w MAOis. Confusing they have the same abreviation.
> > >
> >
> > Phenylethylamine, yes. You can take it with MAOIs with caution. Its mechanism of action is the same as for amphetamines.
> >
> > -undopaminergic
> >
> >
>
> Right but this is a -different- PEA. It's not phenylalanine it's Palmitoylethanolamide. Both are abbreviated PEA.
>

I realised that much.

Phenylethylamine, not phenylalanine, the latter is the precursor.

-undopaminergic

 

Re: Medicines/Supplement that might help 4 coronavirus

Posted by Hugh on March 5, 2020, at 14:02:19

In reply to Medicines/Supplement that might help 4 coronavirus, posted by PeterMartin on March 3, 2020, at 13:15:00

> Anyone else have any recollection of medicines or supplements they've taken that may have had antiviral or prolung properties?

Specialized pro-resolving mediators (SPMs). This is a new supplement. I like it a lot. It's an anti-inflammatory that resolves inflammation rather than blocking it.

https://www.lifeextension.com/magazine/2019/ss/resolve-and-repair-inflammatory-damage

17-HDHA is one of the ingredients in the SPMs capsule I take. It enhances the immune response against the influenza virus.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25392529

SPMs are prolung. They're being investigated as a treatment for chronic inflammation and infection in cystic fibrosis.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphar.2019.00252/full

The kind I take is "Pro-Resolving Mediators" from https://www.lifeextension.com

Here are some other brands:

https://thegreenpharmacy.com
As "SPM Complete"

https://www.nhc.com
As "PRM Resolve"

https://www.metagenics.com
As "SPM Active"

 

Re: Medicines/Supplement that might help 4 coronavirus

Posted by PeterMartin on March 5, 2020, at 18:14:14

In reply to Re: Medicines/Supplement that might help 4 coronavirus, posted by Hugh on March 5, 2020, at 14:02:19

Thanks Hugh for that suggestion. Looking into it.

Does it have any effect on mood? Do you think it would be contradicted w/ any common psych meds?

Looks to be related to EPA in fish oil is that right?

 

Re: Medicines/Supplement that might help 4 coronavirus

Posted by alexandra_k on March 5, 2020, at 21:51:34

In reply to Re: Medicines/Supplement that might help 4 coronavirus, posted by PeterMartin on March 5, 2020, at 18:14:14

https://mmrjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s40779-020-0233-6?utm_source=sn&utm_medium=referral&utm_content=null&utm_campaign=BSLB_1_CA01_GL_BSLB_AWA_CA01_GL_LSGR_PubH_Coronovirus_LandingPage

Lots of suggestions, here.

The Journal Nature is making Coronavirus research freely available.

 

Re: Medicines/Supplement that might help 4 coronavirus PeterMartin

Posted by Hugh on March 6, 2020, at 13:08:24

In reply to Re: Medicines/Supplement that might help 4 coronavirus, posted by PeterMartin on March 5, 2020, at 18:14:14

You're welcome. I don't know of any contraindications with psyche meds, but specialized pro-resolving mediators haven't been available for very long. You might try taking it every other day or every third day in the beginning to see how it affects you. I can feel the effects of one capsule for over 48 hours.

You're right, it is derived from fish oil. But it's far more effective than any fish oil I've ever tried, and I've tried a lot. It does elevate my mood.

This is where I order it:

https://www.lifeextension.com/search#q=pro-resolving%20mediators&t=coveo4A2453FD

You should use one of these discount codes at checkout:

https://www.coupons.com/coupon-codes/life-extension/

 

Re: Medicines/Supplement that might help 4 coronavirus

Posted by Hugh on March 6, 2020, at 13:17:34

In reply to Medicines/Supplement that might help 4 coronavirus, posted by PeterMartin on March 3, 2020, at 13:15:00

Published studies that have examined the use of lactoferrin as a supplement and its effects on immunity have been quite promising. Research using various animals models (i.e., rats, sheep, pigs and cats, as well as others) has found the ingestion of lactoferrin to have direct protective effects on the regulation and modulation of the immune system.

Two studies using healthy human volunteers found the ingestion of lactoferrin derived from cows milk had positive immunoregulatory effects that were specific to the individual. That is, depending on the initial profile of the immune system of each person, lactoferrin ingestion augmented the immune response, leading the researchers to conclude ". . .the data suggests that bovine (cows) lactoferrin may be applied in the clinic to improve the immune status of the patients." A similar human study using ten people who ingested lactoferrin concluded "these results suggest that lactoferrin administration may influence the primary activation of the host defense system."

Complete article:

https://www.lifeextension.com/magazine/2000/10/report_lactoferrin

 

Re: Medicines/Supplement that might help 4 coronavirus

Posted by PeterMartin on March 6, 2020, at 15:14:38

In reply to Re: Medicines/Supplement that might help 4 coronavirus PeterMartin, posted by Hugh on March 6, 2020, at 13:08:24

> You're welcome. I don't know of any contraindications with psyche meds, but specialized pro-resolving mediators haven't been available for very long. You might try taking it every other day or every third day in the beginning to see how it affects you. I can feel the effects of one capsule for over 48 hours.
>
> You're right, it is derived from fish oil. But it's far more effective than any fish oil I've ever tried, and I've tried a lot. It does elevate my mood.
>
> This is where I order it:
>
> https://www.lifeextension.com/search#q=pro-resolving%20mediators&t=coveo4A2453FD
>
> You should use one of these discount codes at checkout:
>
> https://www.coupons.com/coupon-codes/life-extension/
>
>

Thanks a lot! My bottle of it (same brand / Life Extensions) just arrived from Amazon actually. Took my first pill. Hope it doesn't do anything negative to my mood (positive would be great!).

Fish Oil in general tended to make me depressed after a little while. Obv if that happens I'll stop taking it.

Appreciate all of your suggestions during this odd situation.

 

Re: Medicines/Supplement that might help 4 coronavirus PeterMartin

Posted by Hugh on March 6, 2020, at 15:50:17

In reply to Re: Medicines/Supplement that might help 4 coronavirus, posted by PeterMartin on March 6, 2020, at 15:14:38

Good luck. Let us know how it goes.

> > You're welcome. I don't know of any contraindications with psyche meds, but specialized pro-resolving mediators haven't been available for very long. You might try taking it every other day or every third day in the beginning to see how it affects you. I can feel the effects of one capsule for over 48 hours.
> >
> > You're right, it is derived from fish oil. But it's far more effective than any fish oil I've ever tried, and I've tried a lot. It does elevate my mood.
> >
> > This is where I order it:
> >
> > https://www.lifeextension.com/search#q=pro-resolving%20mediators&t=coveo4A2453FD
> >
> > You should use one of these discount codes at checkout:
> >
> > https://www.coupons.com/coupon-codes/life-extension/
> >
> >
>
> Thanks a lot! My bottle of it (same brand / Life Extensions) just arrived from Amazon actually. Took my first pill. Hope it doesn't do anything negative to my mood (positive would be great!).
>
> Fish Oil in general tended to make me depressed after a little while. Obv if that happens I'll stop taking it.
>
> Appreciate all of your suggestions during this odd situation.
>
>

 

Re: Medicines/Supplement that might help 4 coronavirus

Posted by bleauberry on March 6, 2020, at 18:29:57

In reply to Medicines/Supplement that might help 4 coronavirus, posted by PeterMartin on March 3, 2020, at 13:15:00

Any number of herbs and spices are likely to have efficacy to some degree against this virus and others. The main thing is to beef up the immune system, not necessarily to kill microbes. Reishi mushroom, raw garlic or garlic oil (has to stink to retain its powerful anti-viral qualities), oil of oregano is very strong against all microbes. Colloidal silver spray does an amazing job as a spray in the sinuses and throat, as well as consumed systemically. The virus, in my opinion, and apparently many doctors too, is being overhyped for political reasons and for CYA reasons. Many of the infected say it is like a cold or a mild cold. The dead are almost exclusively older patients with pre-existing pulmonary or immune dysfunction. Good ole Vitamin C at 1000mg TID and Vitamin D at 10,000IU is a great way to immediately fortify the immune system. For meds, I am not aware of any, though over in Austria they are talking about some old medicine that has been around a long time that is effective but that's all I know about that a.

 

Re: Medicines/Supplement that might help 4 coronavirus

Posted by beckett2 on March 7, 2020, at 17:22:38

In reply to Medicines/Supplement that might help 4 coronavirus, posted by PeterMartin on March 3, 2020, at 13:15:00

Alright, friends, this letter was forwarded to me. I know about relying on a friend of a friend, but the protocols check out and are reasonable.

I figure our house will get covid-19 eventually, (someone in my town has tested positive!), but we have an 80 y.o. w/ lung issues, so I'm trying to at least put off eventual infection. Cheers y'all.

_________________________________________

"Subject: What I am doing for the upcoming COVID-19 (coronavirus) pandemic


Dear Colleagues, as some of you may recall, when I was a professor of pathology at the University of California San Diego, I was one of the first molecular virologists in the world to work on coronaviruses (the 1970s). I was the first to demonstrate the number of genes the virus contained. Since then, I have kept up with the coronavirus field and its multiple clinical transfers into the human population (e.g., SARS, MERS), from different animal sources. The current projections for its expansion in the US are only probable, due to continued insufficient worldwide data, but it is most likely to be widespread in the US by mid to late March and April.

Here is what I have done and the precautions that I take and will take. These are the same precautions I currently use during our influenza seasons, except for the mask and gloves.:
1) NO HANDSHAKING! Use a fist bump, slight bow, elbow bump, etc.
2) Use ONLY your knuckle to touch light switches. elevator buttons, etc.. Lift the gasoline dispenser with a paper towel or use a disposable glove.
3) Open doors with your closed fist or hip - do not grasp the handle with your hand, unless there is no other way to open the door. Especially important on bathroom and post office/commercial doors.
4) Use disinfectant wipes at the stores when they are available, including wiping the handle and child seat in grocery carts.
5) Wash your hands with soap for 10-20 seconds and/or use a greater than 60% alcohol-based hand sanitizer whenever you return home from ANY activity that involves locations where other people have been.
6) Keep a bottle of sanitizer available at each of your home's entrances. AND in your car for use after getting gas or touching other contaminated objects when you can't immediately wash your hands.
7) If possible, cough or sneeze into a disposable tissue and discard. Use your elbow only if you have to. The clothing on your elbow will contain infectious virus that can be passed on for up to a week or more!

What I have stocked in preparation for the pandemic spread to the US:

1) Latex or nitrile latex disposable gloves for use when going shopping, using the gasoline pump, and all other outside activity when you come in contact with contaminated areas.

Note: This virus is spread in large droplets by coughing and sneezing. This means that the air will not infect you! BUT all the surfaces where these droplets land are infectious for about a week on average - everything that is associated with infected people will be contaminated and potentially infectious. The virus is on surfaces and you will not be infected unless your unprotected face is directly coughed or sneezed upon. This virus only has cell receptors for lung cells (it only infects your lungs) The only way for the virus to infect you is through your nose or mouth via your hands or an infected cough or sneeze onto or into your nose or mouth.

2) Stock up now with disposable surgical masks and use them to prevent you from touching your nose and/or mouth (We touch our nose/mouth 90X/day without knowing it!). This is the only way this virus can infect you - it is lung-specific. The mask will not prevent the virus in a direct sneeze from getting into your nose or mouth - it is only to keep you from touching your nose or mouth.

3) Stock up now with hand sanitizers and latex/nitrile gloves (get the appropriate sizes for your family). The hand sanitizers must be alcohol-based and greater than 60% alcohol to be effective.

4) Stock up now with zinc lozenges. These lozenges have been proven to be effective in blocking coronavirus (and most other viruses) from multiplying in your throat and nasopharynx. Use as directed several times each day when you begin to feel ANY "cold-like" symptoms beginning. It is best to lie down and let the lozenge dissolve in the back of your throat and nasopharynx. Cold-Eeze lozenges is one brand available, but there are other brands available.

I, as many others do, hope that this pandemic will be reasonably contained, BUT I personally do not think it will be. Humans have never seen this snake-associated virus before and have no internal defense against it. Tremendous worldwide efforts are being made to understand the molecular and clinical virology of this virus. Unbelievable molecular knowledge about the genomics, structure, and virulence of this virus has already been achieved. BUT, there will be NO drugs or vaccines available this year to protect us or limit the infection within us. Only symptomatic support is available. I hope these personal thoughts will be helpful during this potentially catastrophic pandemic. You are welcome to share this email.

Good luck to all of us!

James Robb, MD FCAP"


 

Re: Medicines/Supplement that might help 4 coronavirus beckett2

Posted by sigismund on March 8, 2020, at 0:35:23

In reply to Re: Medicines/Supplement that might help 4 coronavirus, posted by beckett2 on March 7, 2020, at 17:22:38

Toilet paper is bulky so the shelves thin out with a few purchases. This led people to think that it was running out, which led to bulk purchases, more shortages, bare shelves and fights in supermarkets.

God knows what it will be like when things we need (like food) are not available.

 

Re: Medicines/Supplement that might help 4 coronavirus

Posted by beckett2 on March 8, 2020, at 3:15:59

In reply to Re: Medicines/Supplement that might help 4 coronavirus beckett2, posted by sigismund on March 8, 2020, at 0:35:23

> Toilet paper is bulky so the shelves thin out with a few purchases. This led people to think that it was running out, which led to bulk purchases, more shortages, bare shelves and fights in supermarkets.
>
> God knows what it will be like when things we need (like food) are not available.

I saw said tp fight. Who swung first is lost to memory, but I recall one woman saying 'I only want one pack'.

 

Re: Medicines/Supplement that might help 4 coronavirus

Posted by Lamdage22 on March 10, 2020, at 11:50:36

In reply to Re: Medicines/Supplement that might help 4 coronavirus, posted by beckett2 on March 8, 2020, at 3:15:59

Every time I read the news, I obsess about Corona. Not healthy.

 

Re: Medicines/Supplement that might help 4 coronavirus

Posted by undopaminergic on March 10, 2020, at 12:00:19

In reply to Re: Medicines/Supplement that might help 4 coronavirus, posted by Lamdage22 on March 10, 2020, at 11:50:36

> Every time I read the news, I obsess about Corona. Not healthy.

I quit following the news years ago, and I have not regretted it.

For one thing, it saves me a lot of time that I can put to better uses.

-undopaminergic

 

Re: Medicines/Supplement that might help 4 coronavirus

Posted by PeterMartin on March 11, 2020, at 2:40:05

In reply to Re: Medicines/Supplement that might help 4 coronavirus, posted by undopaminergic on March 10, 2020, at 12:00:19

I know it's a study w SARS (a different coronavirus) and mice, but does anyone else think this is promising for Stinging Nettle Root (Urtica Silica)? I mentioned it in the original post but didn't link the study:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21338626

Inhibition of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus replication in a lethal SARS-CoV BALB/c mouse model by stinging nettle lectin, Urtica dioica agglutinin.

Abstract
Urtica dioica agglutinin (UDA) is a small plant monomeric lectin, 8.7 kDa in size, with an N-acetylglucosamine specificity that inhibits viruses from Nidovirales in vitro. In the current study, we first examined the efficacy of UDA on the replication of different SARS-CoV strains in Vero 76 cells. UDA inhibited virus replication in a dose-dependent manner and reduced virus yields of the Urbani strain by 90% at 1.1 0.4 &#956;g/ml in Vero 76 cells. Then, UDA was tested for efficacy in a lethal SARS-CoV-infected BALB/c mouse model. BALB/c mice were infected with two LD50 (575 PFU) of virus for 4 h before the mice were treated intraperitoneally with UDA at 20, 10, 5 or 0 mg/kg/day for 4 days. Treatment with UDA at 5 mg/kg significantly protected the mice against a lethal infection with mouse-adapted SARS-CoV (p < 0.001), but did not significantly reduce virus lung titers. All virus-infected mice receiving UDA treatments were also significantly protected against weight loss (p < 0.001). UDA also effectively reduced lung pathology scores. At day 6 after virus exposure, all groups of mice receiving UDA had much lower lung weights than did the placebo-treated mice. Thus, our data suggest that UDA treatment of SARS infection in mice leads to a substantial therapeutic effect that protects mice against death and weight loss. Furthermore, the mode of action of UDA in vitro was further investigated using live SARS-CoV Urbani strain virus and retroviral particles pseudotyped with SARS-CoV spike (S). UDA specifically inhibited the replication of live SARS-CoV or SARS-CoV pseudotyped virus when added just before, but not after, adsorption. These data suggested that UDA likely inhibits SARS-CoV infection by targeting early stages of the replication cycle, namely, adsorption or penetration. In addition, we demonstrated that UDA neutralizes the virus infectivity, presumably by binding to the SARS-CoV spike (S) glycoprotein. Finally, the target molecule for the inhibition of virus replication was partially characterized. When UDA was exposed to N-acetylglucosamine and then UDA was added to cells just prior to adsorption, UDA did not inhibit the virus infection. These data support the conclusion that UDA might bind to N-acetylglucosamine-like residues present on the glycosylated envelope glycoproteins, thereby preventing virus attachment to cells

 

Re: Medicines/Supplement that might help 4 coronavirus

Posted by PeterMartin on March 12, 2020, at 1:01:12

In reply to Re: Medicines/Supplement that might help 4 coronavirus, posted by PeterMartin on March 11, 2020, at 2:40:05

Here's a case a scientist made for Lithium:

https://f1000research.com/articles/9-93/v1/iparadigms

 

Will there be shortages with meds? If so, when?

Posted by Lamdage22 on March 13, 2020, at 8:33:10

In reply to Re: Medicines/Supplement that might help 4 coronavirus, posted by PeterMartin on March 12, 2020, at 1:01:12

Hey Guys,

I think living healthily and adhering to good hygiene is really all that can be done. I quit going to massages, I quit eating out. I study at home anyway. I don't go to the doctors unless unavoidable. I am not so much worried about myself but the elderly in my surroundings. My father is not very worried. I am though. He is 81, I can't dictate how he lives his life.

Do you think there will be a shortage of psychmeds? That would be close to torture for me! I always have a stock of at least 6 up to 12 weeks.


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