Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 1108173

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Re: Can Marplan work better than Nardil or Parnate?

Posted by Stargazer2 on January 25, 2020, at 23:33:10

In reply to Re: Can Marplan work better than Nardil or Parnate? » Stargazer2, posted by Phillipa on January 25, 2020, at 23:12:15

Hi Phillipa,
I had a few bad years and had to do Ketamine last year but I think I know better than my docs as I tell them what to give me. I added DL Phenylalanine which they know nothing about and I tell them it has arrested my suicidal thinking. They have no idea why but as usual just say keep taking it. I lost my Pdoc of over 30 years and that was a recent loss which makes me concerned because of the fear of prescribing MAIs for many docs with less experience. Im not here often but just wanted to drop by. Most of the posts are either too scientific or they boggle my mind completely. So I scan a few and post if I think my experience can help anyone who is struggling. It is not an easy battle and many it seems have suffered for too long. I know why many give up and if I didnt try Ketamine I might not have survived my last bout with it. Night.

 

Re: Can Marplan work better than Nardil or Parnate?

Posted by undopaminergic on January 26, 2020, at 7:24:22

In reply to Can Marplan work better than Nardil or Parnate?, posted by SLS on January 25, 2020, at 12:09:15

You probably know these things, but anyway, isocarboxazid (Marplan) is in part unique compared to the other MAOI alternatives. It a) does not have the GABAergic metabolites of phenelzine (Nardil), b) does not have the intrinsic amphetaminergic action of tranylcypromine (Parnate), c) does not have the l-amphetamine metabolites of selegiline, and d) does not have a preference for MAO-B like selegiline and rasagiline.

The only MAOIs I took were selegiline and rasagiline in low, MAO-B selective doses, but I would love to try tranylcypromine or isocarboxazide, in order of preference.

Also, remember that you can augment the MAOIs if they are not sufficient on their own. I used phenylethylamine (PEA) with selegiline, and while it was a very potent combination, the short half-life of PEA led to constant ups and downs, and I experienced neurotoxicity similar to what long-term meth users do. I would recommend methylphenidate or dextroamphetamine in preference to PEA, but the latter does have the advantage of not requiring a prescription. You can also try augmentation with amino acids, especially phenylalanine, tyrosine, and L-dopa, but if you need more serotonin you can also use tryptophan or 5-hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP).

-undopaminergic

 

Re: Can Marplan work better than Nardil or Parnate?

Posted by undopaminergic on January 26, 2020, at 7:35:31

In reply to Re: Can Marplan work better than Nardil or Parnate?, posted by Stargazer2 on January 25, 2020, at 22:43:11

> Ketamine is essential for prolonged and high risk suicidality.

From what I've read recently, lithium seems to have a specific anti-suicidal action even at very low doses.

Any working antidepressant is of course helpful to reduce suicide risk.

-undopaminergic

 

Re: Can Marplan work better than Nardil or Parnate? » Stargazer2

Posted by Phillipa on January 26, 2020, at 9:23:57

In reply to Re: Can Marplan work better than Nardil or Parnate?, posted by Stargazer2 on January 25, 2020, at 23:33:10

Hi Stargazer, I'm losing my pdoc also and there are none here that will give me what he's been letting me take for the eight years I've been with him. Greg's Dad died a huge loss and a slow death, his Brother than had to be admitted to the hospital post radiation bleeding of bladder from prostate cancer a few years ago. So far he's been in Chapel Hill hospital since Oct 7th. We have purchased and sold this home building smaller one, my shih Tzu of 13 years is losing her eyesight. And I feel like I'm losing my mind too many stresses and I'm getting old. Sorry to go on like this but feel so helpless and old. I hope I can pull it together like I used to be able to. I saw your name and had to at least say hi. Phillipa

 

Re: Can Marplan work better than Nardil or Parnate? » SLS

Posted by Jadde on January 26, 2020, at 9:55:54

In reply to Can Marplan work better than Nardil or Parnate?, posted by SLS on January 25, 2020, at 12:09:15

Hi Scott,

Sorry to hear you are struggling. I have no answers to your questions, however in looking at the archives it seems there are ppl who respond better to Marplan than Nardil. I will be curious to see how you do as I am at 10 weeks on Nardil and still not re-responding. Marplan may be my next trial. And Btw- I will hope that you give it 12 weeks, not 2 :)

Good luck with your decision.

Jade

 

Re: Can Marplan work better than Nardil or Parnate? » Stargazer2

Posted by SLS on January 28, 2020, at 9:45:21

In reply to Re: Can Marplan work better than Nardil or Parnate?, posted by Stargazer2 on January 25, 2020, at 22:43:11

Thanks, Stargazer. Your post was very helpful.

Yes, it was Marplan that was temporarily discontinued in the early 1990s.

> I had success with both Nardil and Marplan. I am currently on Nardil but I may have had a better response to Marplan if it was the drug that was discontinued by Roche back in the early 90s. My memory of what worked and when and the particulars of each med is gone from my memory forever.

Exactly! Too many drugs. Too many years. Too much pain, frustration, and disappointment.

> But I do remember I had a very good run on it. Good luck with that or try Ketamine if you havent already tried it.
> My current regime is Nardil, Ritalin, Lithium, Seroquel, DL Phenylalanine. My moderately successful regime is due to my years of TRD and fighting to survive.

> Im surprised Im still alive despite everything I have been through, including ECT, TMS and Ketamine. I must have 9 lives, maybe a few left.

I feel the same way. Sometimes, I don't understand why I allowed myself to live this long. "Hope", I guess.

> Ketamine is essential for prolonged and high risk suicidality.

I have a few questions to ask you, if you don't mind.

1. What was your experience with ketamine? Do you still take it on a regular basis?

2. Did you use ketamine as I.V. or intranasal? I tried intranasal ketamine 5 years ago, but it did absolutely nothing for me.

3. What was your experience with TMS? Was it "deep TMS"?

Thanks again.


- Scott

 

Re: Can Marplan work better than Nardil or Parnate? » Jadde

Posted by SLS on January 28, 2020, at 9:54:08

In reply to Re: Can Marplan work better than Nardil or Parnate? » SLS, posted by Jadde on January 26, 2020, at 9:55:54

Hi, Jade.

> Hi Scott,
>
> Sorry to hear you are struggling. I have no answers to your questions, however in looking at the archives it seems there are ppl who respond better to Marplan than Nardil. I will be curious to see how you do as I am at 10 weeks on Nardil and still not re-responding. Marplan may be my next trial.

I have seen a few people not respond to Nardil at all until they were on 60-75 mg/day for 12 weeks. I hope you are one of them.

> And Btw- I will hope that you give it 12 weeks, not 2 :)

I'll try my best to take your advice. I wish I had had a greater appreciation for patience back then.

> Good luck with your decision.

Thanks!


- Scott

 

Re: Can Marplan work better than Nardil?

Posted by Stargazer2 on January 29, 2020, at 22:52:39

In reply to Re: Can Marplan work better than Nardil or Parnate? » Stargazer2, posted by SLS on January 28, 2020, at 9:45:21

Hi SLS
I was getting IV Ketamine and had perhaps 10-12 treatments at $500 per infusion, which I dont think is too outrageous, as it is an hour in length administered by an RN and the procedure has its risks. The doctor that provided Ketamine is a psychiatrist with the right credentials and a member of a National Ketamine Assn that has frequent seminars, where she often speaks. The treatment is complex in that I understand there are more nuances than many patients recognize, I.e. the dosage given is critical and the level of dissociation is also critical, for a successful outcome. She also has a pharmacological branch of practice and TMS branch. She is located in CT and I can provide her name if you like just to read her website and her blog which she updates frequently. I do believe she is in the top 1 percent of Ketamine specialists nationally.
The TMS I received was about 5 years ago and I dont think it was identified as the deep methodology. Not sure though. It was NeuroStar brand.
We could speak more offline if you need addl info on Ketamine. I would not recommend getting Ketamine from an
anesthesiologist. Again I have my reasons for saying that.
I hope this info is helpful to you.

 

Re: Can Marplan work better than Nardil?

Posted by Stargazer2 on January 29, 2020, at 22:52:46

In reply to Re: Can Marplan work better than Nardil or Parnate? » Stargazer2, posted by SLS on January 28, 2020, at 9:45:21

Hi SLS
I was getting IV Ketamine and had perhaps 10-12 treatments at $500 per infusion, which I dont think is too outrageous, as it is an hour in length administered by an RN and the procedure has its risks. The doctor that provided Ketamine is a psychiatrist with the right credentials and a member of a National Ketamine Assn that has frequent seminars, where she often speaks. The treatment is complex in that I understand there are more nuances than many patients recognize, I.e. the dosage given is critical and the level of dissociation is also critical, for a successful outcome. She also has a pharmacological branch of practice and TMS branch. She is located in CT and I can provide her name if you like just to read her website and her blog which she updates frequently. I do believe she is in the top 1 percent of Ketamine specialists nationally.
The TMS I received was about 5 years ago and I dont think it was identified as the deep methodology. Not sure though. It was NeuroStar brand.
We could speak more offline if you need addl info on Ketamine. I would not recommend getting Ketamine from an
anesthesiologist. Again I have my reasons for saying that.
I hope this info is helpful to you.

 

Re: Can Marplan work better than Nardil or Parnate? » SLS

Posted by pedr on February 4, 2020, at 21:48:52

In reply to Can Marplan work better than Nardil or Parnate?, posted by SLS on January 25, 2020, at 12:09:15

Hey sls,

"Both of these drugs offer minimal benefit to me, and I don't want to live out my years that way." I am in a similar boat. 25 years of suffering from TRD and I don't know whether to stick or twist. Seen as Adderall is great for my TRD,I figured Parnate would be a sure-fire bit but it just made me more and more depressed the higher dose I went. I did get some good response to Nardil plus Ritalin but try getting that pair prescribed in the US. Nardil by itself for me is a disaster -_-

Ketamine: no effect, dTMS: no effect, unilateral ECT: no effect.

So, if you do end up trying Marplan, please post your findings here.

Many thanks,
Pete

 

Re: Can Marplan work better than Nardil? » Stargazer2

Posted by SLS on February 6, 2020, at 10:21:26

In reply to Re: Can Marplan work better than Nardil?, posted by Stargazer2 on January 29, 2020, at 22:52:39

Hi, Stargazer.

Thank you so much for your reply.

> Hi SLS
> I was getting IV Ketamine and had perhaps 10-12 treatments at $500 per infusion, which I dont think is too outrageous, as it is an hour in length administered by an RN and the procedure has its risks. The doctor that provided Ketamine is a psychiatrist with the right credentials and a member of a National Ketamine Assn that has frequent seminars, where she often speaks. The treatment is complex in that I understand there are more nuances than many patients recognize, I.e. the dosage given is critical and the level of dissociation is also critical, for a successful outcome. She also has a pharmacological branch of practice and TMS branch. She is located in CT and I can provide her name if you like just to read her website and her blog which she updates frequently. I do believe she is in the top 1 percent of Ketamine specialists nationally.
> The TMS I received was about 5 years ago and I dont think it was identified as the deep methodology. Not sure though. It was NeuroStar brand.
> We could speak more offline if you need addl info on Ketamine. I would not recommend getting Ketamine from an
> anesthesiologist. Again I have my reasons for saying that.
> I hope this info is helpful to you.

Very. Thank you.

I tried intranasal ketamine 5 years ago. It didn't help, but I now question the quality of the solution prepared by the compounding pharmacy. Even large doses didn't produce dissociation.

Your description of the importance of dosage is in line with what John Krystal (Yale) said years ago. Too little doesn't work and too much doesn't work.


- Scott


 

Re: Can Marplan work better than Nardil?/SLS

Posted by Stargazer2 on February 8, 2020, at 23:19:01

In reply to Re: Can Marplan work better than Nardil? » Stargazer2, posted by SLS on February 6, 2020, at 10:21:26

Hi Scott,
A few years ago I spoke with Dr Krystal. He was not able to offer me any help even with his expertise with Ketamine. I was very disappointed in his lack of interest in really helping me. I also tried to get into a study under Dr Santacora and they pulled the rug out from under me. Yale is not the esteemed institute they profess to be. I worked there in the ECT Dept but was unimpressed with the results and the overall integrity of the program. I did not see many patients improve but the doctor claimed they did. Ongoing treatments were recommended without any improvements and too many patients were just existing.
But as far as IV Ketamine goes, I think the doc I saw (and will see again) is outstanding and I felt she was in it for the right reasons. Out of the 12 treatment I received, 2 were not effective based on a few things that happened during the treatment. It took me a couple times to relax enough and be able to tolerate some anxiety to not jump up or yell out for help. It is a very scarey thing to experience but I would recommend it. It was expected that I see improvement by the 6-8th treatment.
All I know is my depression really improved when I started taking DL Phenylalanine. Not sure why but my SI was stopped cold. I did this on my own and I think w/o it I may have continued the Ketamine monthly.
SG

 

Re: Can Marplan work better than Nardil?/SLS » Stargazer2

Posted by undopaminergic on February 9, 2020, at 3:44:05

In reply to Re: Can Marplan work better than Nardil?/SLS, posted by Stargazer2 on February 8, 2020, at 23:19:01

> Not sure why but my SI was stopped cold.

What is SI?

-undopaminergic

 

Re: Can Marplan work better than Nardi.. Stargazer

Posted by PeterMartin on February 9, 2020, at 17:50:13

In reply to Re: Can Marplan work better than Nardil or Parnate?, posted by Stargazer2 on January 25, 2020, at 23:33:10

> Hi Phillipa,
> I had a few bad years and had to do Ketamine last year but I think I know better than my docs as I tell them what to give me. I added DL Phenylalanine which they know nothing about and I tell them it has arrested my suicidal thinking. They have no idea why but as usual just say keep taking it.
>>

Stargazer, can you say how much DL Phenylalanine you take a Nardil? I've switched to Marplan (on it again for about 3wks) but I think I'm suffering from some Nardil withdrawals. I've had bad RLS the past 5 or so days and it's really wearing me down.

Marplan doesn't seem to have kicked in yet (I'm praying it does provide a clear response). Thinking back I know I had success w Marplan in earlier years when I used to drink a lot of crystal light which is sweetened w Aspartame. Aspartame is broke down into Phenylalanine iirc.

Curious if you could say the mg you take and whether or not you had any immediate response or if it took days to weeks to help.

Thx!

 

Re: Can Marplan work better than Nardil?/SLS

Posted by PeterMartin on February 9, 2020, at 17:53:07

In reply to Re: Can Marplan work better than Nardil?/SLS » Stargazer2, posted by undopaminergic on February 9, 2020, at 3:44:05

> > Not sure why but my SI was stopped cold.
>
> What is SI?
>

SI = Suicidal ideation. Of specificly: thinking about suicide or wanting to take your own life.

 

Re: Can Marplan work better than Nardil?/undopa/PM

Posted by Stargazer2 on February 9, 2020, at 19:45:05

In reply to Re: Can Marplan work better than Nardil?/SLS » Stargazer2, posted by undopaminergic on February 9, 2020, at 3:44:05

> > Not sure why but my SI was stopped cold.
>
> What is SI?
>
> -undopaminergic
>

SI=Suicide ideation

Im still having trouble posting so Im including the next post with this one.

Peter M: I only take DL-P 500 mg 2-3 times/week.
Interestingly I also drink Crystal light(lemonade) everyday as I was told by my urologist to do this to prevent kidney stones.
I think I did that prior to finding that DL eliminated the daily SI that faced me. IV Ketamine helped but did not sustain the AD effect longer than 3-4 weeks.

I also had my best AD result with Marplan many years ago but after Roche discontinued it I had several bad years w/o relief trying all the typical ADs in the 1990s. Ugh.
I think I retried it but did not regain the original wffects. Nardil has been my go to AD for the last 5-8 years. I take 300 mg Lithium and 25 Seroquel. Its hard to know exactly what helps best but about 2 years ago I was feeling badly enough to undergo Ketamine. I am glad I did and will go back again if the depression comes back with a vengeance. It usually does unless the DL keeps it in remission.

 

Re: Can Marplan work better than Nardil?/undopa/PM » Stargazer2

Posted by SLS on February 10, 2020, at 12:56:51

In reply to Re: Can Marplan work better than Nardil?/undopa/PM, posted by Stargazer2 on February 9, 2020, at 19:45:05

Hi Stargazer.

What dosage of Marplan did you find worked best?

How long does it take to kick-in?

What side effects did you have?

Does Nardil work better than Marplan for you now?

Thanks.


- Scott

 

Re: Can Marplan work better than Nardil or Parnate? » SLS

Posted by jay2112 on February 18, 2020, at 17:11:50

In reply to Can Marplan work better than Nardil or Parnate?, posted by SLS on January 25, 2020, at 12:09:15

> Hi, All.
>
> I have been agonizing with waves of anergic, crushing, and suicidal depression for almost two years while looking for alternatives to Nardil and Parnate. Both of these drugs offer minimal benefit to me, and I don't want to live out my years that way. I have persisted with Effexor for 6 months - even going up to 450 mg/day. With each dosage increase - or decrease - I experienced a few days of significant improvement. It was delicious.
>
> I tried Marplan many years ago, but abandoned it after only two weeks because of my impulsiveness. Very stupid. I don't remember what dosage I took. I experienced no side effects during that time.
>
> Years ago, doctors labelled Marplan as being a "weak Nardil". So my question is, has anyone responded better to Marplan than they did to both Nardil and Parnate?
>
> For anyone who is doing well on Marplan:
>
> How did you respond to Nardil and Parnate?
>
> What dosage are you taking?
>
> How long did it take to begin working?
>
> Side effects?
>
> I need to make a decision in a few days.
>
> Thank you - Very much.
>
> :-)
>
>
> - Scott

Hi Scott:

I am sorry you are having some heavy challenges. I just thought I would chime in with some of my thoughts, although I donèt know quite so much about MAOIès. (My apostrophe, and other keys arenèt working..ughh...sorry..lol)

But, a few things...one, are you still on the lithiumÉ I personally found a heavy hitter dose of lithium, 900mg, plus 450mg of Effexor...also, adding in a high dose of lamictal..200mg 2x daily...and 1mg of xanax, 3x daily, which, isnèt perfect, but gives a good whollop to both depression and anxiety. Clonidine also works well for my PTSD. On top of that, a small dose of Remeron...15mg. Seriously, it is a power-punch to depression and anxiety. Plus, I have been reading that lithium is one of the best treatments for anhedonia, especially in combination with an a.d. My psychiatrist swears by the combo.

Best,

Jay

 

Re: Can Marplan work better than Nardil?/SLS

Posted by stargazer2 on February 19, 2020, at 8:33:38

In reply to Re: Can Marplan work better than Nardil?/undopa/PM » Stargazer2, posted by SLS on February 10, 2020, at 12:56:51

Marplan worked for a few days at a low normal dose I think. No memory of what dose but maybe 2-3 pills a day. No other meds taken with it. No recall of any side effects.
My advice if you havent tried DL Phenylalanine is to try it. Buy on Amazon (500 mg dose). Take at a very low dose. I only take 2-3 times a week with Lithium 300, Seroquel 25 at night.
I found this eliminated my suicidal thoughts and has kept them at bay, allowing me to stop Ketamine for the last year.
Miracle? Not sure but you know anything that can work after so many powerful drugs have failed could be considered that.
I read about it i this site once tried it years ago and do not think it was helpful it now it has been the key.
Hoping something will work for you soon. I know you have struggled for a long time as I have. Was there any combo that worked or came close?

 

Re: Can Marplan work better than Nardil?/SLS

Posted by stargazer2 on February 19, 2020, at 8:34:50

In reply to Re: Can Marplan work better than Nardil?/undopa/PM » Stargazer2, posted by SLS on February 10, 2020, at 12:56:51

Marplan worked for a few days at a low normal dose I think. No memory of what dose but maybe 2-3 pills a day. No other meds taken with it. No recall of any side effects.
My advice if you havent tried DL Phenylalanine is to try it. Buy on Amazon (500 mg dose). Take at a very low dose. I only take 2-3 times a week with Lithium 300, Seroquel 25 at night.
I found this eliminated my suicidal thoughts and has kept them at bay, allowing me to stop Ketamine for the last year.
Miracle? Not sure but you know anything that can work after so many powerful drugs have failed could be considered that.
I read about it i this site once tried it years ago and do not think it was helpful it now it has been the key.
Hoping something will work for you soon. I know you have struggled for a long time as I have. Was there any combo that worked or came close?

 

Re: Can Marplan work better than Nardil?/SLS

Posted by stargazer2 on February 19, 2020, at 8:34:54

In reply to Re: Can Marplan work better than Nardil?/undopa/PM » Stargazer2, posted by SLS on February 10, 2020, at 12:56:51

Marplan worked for a few days at a low normal dose I think. No memory of what dose but maybe 2-3 pills a day. No other meds taken with it. No recall of any side effects.
My advice if you havent tried DL Phenylalanine is to try it. Buy on Amazon (500 mg dose). Take at a very low dose. I only take 2-3 times a week with Lithium 300, Seroquel 25 at night.
I found this eliminated my suicidal thoughts and has kept them at bay, allowing me to stop Ketamine for the last year.
Miracle? Not sure but you know anything that can work after so many powerful drugs have failed could be considered that.
I read about it i this site once tried it years ago and do not think it was helpful it now it has been the key.
Hoping something will work for you soon. I know you have struggled for a long time as I have. Was there any combo that worked or came close?

 

Re: Can Marplan work better than Nardil?/SLS

Posted by Lamdage22 on February 19, 2020, at 9:21:04

In reply to Re: Can Marplan work better than Nardil?/SLS, posted by stargazer2 on February 19, 2020, at 8:33:38

Scott, tried Phenylalanine?

 

Re: Can Marplan work better than Nardil?/SLS

Posted by undopaminergic on February 19, 2020, at 9:55:23

In reply to Re: Can Marplan work better than Nardil?/SLS, posted by Lamdage22 on February 19, 2020, at 9:21:04

> Scott, tried Phenylalanine?
>

This is a good idea. It is the precursor of phenylethylamine (PEA), and also the precursor of tyrosine (Tyr), which in turn is the precursor to L-dopa, which in turn is the precursor to dopamine (DA). Thus, if you are targeting DA, it is better to use Tyr or L-dopa than phenylalanine (Phe). If you can't get enough PEA from Phe, you can use PEA directly; however, you should be very careful if you do this while on a MAOI, as it can produce a hypertensive attack.

-undopaminergic

 

Re: Can Marplan work better than Nardil?/SLS

Posted by Stargazer2 on February 19, 2020, at 11:42:56

In reply to Re: Can Marplan work better than Nardil?/SLS, posted by undopaminergic on February 19, 2020, at 9:55:23

Im on a MAO and have experienced no hypertension but we all metabolize differently so use caution. Ritalin is contraindicated with Nardil or any MAO.
My current meds are:
Nardil 30, Ritalin 5 TID daytime.
Seriquel (generic) 50, Lithium 300, DL-PA 500 mg only 2times/wk. bottle says 2-3 capsules daily.
I will never start any med at recommended dose anymore. I start low and go up slowly. I think over the years the doses I was prescribed were higher than needed and I overshot the window. Doctors always think more is better but in my case, more was deadly and with severe S,E.s. When I tried the MAOs, I felt something after a few days with the exception of Parnate and Emsam. If needed I would try Marplan and Parnate again but my current regime is pretty good for me.
I apologize for the multiple posts. After not being able to post on and off the past few weeks Im now over posting the same post multiple times.

 

Re: Can Marplan work better than Nardil?/SLS

Posted by Lamdage22 on February 19, 2020, at 12:59:43

In reply to Re: Can Marplan work better than Nardil?/SLS, posted by undopaminergic on February 19, 2020, at 9:55:23

I was thinking more about D-Phenylalanine being a precursor to endorphins. It could help with Anhedonia

> > Scott, tried Phenylalanine?
> >
>
> This is a good idea. It is the precursor of phenylethylamine (PEA), and also the precursor of tyrosine (Tyr), which in turn is the precursor to L-dopa, which in turn is the precursor to dopamine (DA). Thus, if you are targeting DA, it is better to use Tyr or L-dopa than phenylalanine (Phe). If you can't get enough PEA from Phe, you can use PEA directly; however, you should be very careful if you do this while on a MAOI, as it can produce a hypertensive attack.
>
> -undopaminergic
>


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