Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 887118

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Compounding pharmacy for enteric coated nardil?

Posted by swoody on March 26, 2009, at 16:41:50

Hello! First post here... so I figured I'd get my virgin post over with:) First a little background... I was recently prescribed Nardil for depression/social phobia, and have read this would be a good option for someone with rejection sensitivity. I was not looking to be inebriated or anything major, just something to help make my exposure therapy a little smoother and alleviate my depression better than all the other antidepressant drug crap classes. I went through a divorce about a year and a half ago and am trying to start a new life, make new friends, etc... I have been clinically depressed for some time and have run the gauntlet of SSRI/SNRIs, TCAs, Benzos, etc... I was wondering if anyone knew of a pharmacy or could post me a link where I could get my prescription Nardil compounded with an enteric coat or capsule, as I have read a lot of complaints about the post-2003 Phizer formulation. I just want it to work close to the original formula and get the most for my $$. Thanks!

 

Re: Compounding pharmacy for enteric coated nardil? swoody

Posted by myco on March 26, 2009, at 21:04:14

In reply to Compounding pharmacy for enteric coated nardil?, posted by swoody on March 26, 2009, at 16:41:50

Welcome to Babble Swoody,

So youve just begun Nardil...good stuff, that med. I'm at about 4 months on Nardil. Currently taking 75mg.

Couple suggestions for you and I am aware of the long-drawn-out debate over new and old Nardil.

First off, you have no experiences (neither do I) with the old nardil...so my first point would be to just give Nardil a try without messing around just yet. Once or if it begins to "fail" for you in terms of efficacy then begin to start looking at options before you ditch it...i.e. the compounder like you mentioned.

ok...first off...as you probably know you can't buy empty enteric capsules very easily I think. The best option there would be to buy some cheap enteric capsule product and empty it out, crush the nardil and fill them and then the only problem is the "seal" has to be enteric coated itself...not sure "licking" or simply wetting with alkaline liquid would be enough but mabye. Try if you like.

You can also buy enteric coating liquid...you will find it at companies who sell to pharmaceutical companies and similar. There are even lil pill kits and enteric coating liquid for use with them.

Compounding pharmacy is an option, albeit a very expensive option...you can have them coat your new nardil for you sure...but again cost may be large.
Remember also, if you really want to chase this idea - I dont recommend it until a last resort though as the med works fine for me, you can search online for the monograph of the old nardil then get the monograph of the new nardil...take them both into compounding pharmacy with you nardil or rx for it....show them and explain the difference....the old has different "ingredients" so if you wanna "match" it as you say you can ask them to take out the phenelzine from the nardil and "remake" the old using it's ingredients....but again to me this sounds bloody expensive and not worth it until you try that new nardil.

You may also experiment, although be careful, with nardil. You can use other meds or supplements/herbs that will increase absorption and distribution, efficacy etc of nardil in your body. I played a bit once but got unlucky and mixed something I shouldnt have with nardil and had a bit of an anxiety/panic issue...so do be careful. MAOI's are not the category of meds you want to play with if you must play.

So ya...before you go this route...just give it shot. It works fine. And to let ya know, just to settle this debate:
The old wasn't enteric coated anyway to my knowledge. I did a little investigating if I remember and looked up each and every compound individually that was in the formulation and none of it was enteric...it all was available to stomach dissolution.

To best increase your odds for availability...know that nardil likes alkaline conditions that best to be dissolved ok....so yes in the intestine would be best but not needed. Take nardil on an empty stomach (if you dont get nauseous - just try) and take it with alot of water no food no juice just water. No food will prevent stomach acid buildup (less acidic conditions) plus all that water will dilute the stomach acid already there alot making conditions more ideal. I do this and yes I do notice a difference than when I take it with food. Give nardil a good 45mins in your stomach with only water no food then eat or have coffee or whatever.

Many new user do attempt to go this way....thinking about this old worn out debate...dont worry about it yet. I find it bollocks anyway. I do understand, from others, there is something different....but it's the inert ingredients in nardil tabs that the issue. There are compounds in there that help "swell" the pill as it's being dissolved...some help nardil "break up" better into it's powder from the solid tab, others toy with pH to help absorption then there are binders and compounds like buffers etc. It's complicated and not worth thinking about until many months down the road.

myco

---------------------------

> Hello! First post here... so I figured I'd get my virgin post over with:) First a little background... I was recently prescribed Nardil for depression/social phobia, and have read this would be a good option for someone with rejection sensitivity. I was not looking to be inebriated or anything major, just something to help make my exposure therapy a little smoother and alleviate my depression better than all the other antidepressant drug crap classes. I went through a divorce about a year and a half ago and am trying to start a new life, make new friends, etc... I have been clinically depressed for some time and have run the gauntlet of SSRI/SNRIs, TCAs, Benzos, etc... I was wondering if anyone knew of a pharmacy or could post me a link where I could get my prescription Nardil compounded with an enteric coat or capsule, as I have read a lot of complaints about the post-2003 Phizer formulation. I just want it to work close to the original formula and get the most for my $$. Thanks!

 

Bioperine/nardil combination maybe? Any feedback? myco

Posted by swoody on March 26, 2009, at 23:49:03

In reply to Re: Compounding pharmacy for enteric coated nardil? swoody, posted by myco on March 26, 2009, at 21:04:14

Thank you very much for your reply... you are right... I may be jumping to conclusions too soon before I know how it is really going to work for me. On a side note, you mentioned different things you can take to increase bioavailability, absorption, etc... I had been researching a little bit, and came across Bioperine which supposedly greatly enhances the absorption of vitamins, minerals, meds, etc...) and supposedly it helps a great deal... I am going to research a bit more, but it is good food for thought to have something that will stretch my dollar in case I need to keep upping the dose (as so many people end up doing). Maybe someone else has had experience with Bioperine and Nardil combinations? It would be interesting to hear feedback on this combination... thanks again!

 

Re: Bioperine/nardil combination maybe? Any feedback? swoody

Posted by Phillipa on March 27, 2009, at 0:11:36

In reply to Bioperine/nardil combination maybe? Any feedback? myco, posted by swoody on March 26, 2009, at 23:49:03

Welcome not to get off topic but if you go the route of compounding as I'm about to do with bioidentical hormones there are cerified compounding pharmacies. Phillipa

 

Re: Bioperine/nardil combination maybe? Any feedback? swoody

Posted by myco on March 27, 2009, at 0:44:03

In reply to Bioperine/nardil combination maybe? Any feedback? myco, posted by swoody on March 26, 2009, at 23:49:03

Ah yes....the word Bioperine throw me for a loop there for a second...this is black pepper extract ok I remember. Yes this extract is good at increasing bioavailability...I have read good things about it but never tried it by itself. I know many herbal supplements will have it mixed in if you look at the ingredients...they put it in for this very reason. Do be careful ok though with sups/herbs with Nardil. Lil side story here...I had a theory that some enzymes in the stomach and intestine that sulfonate - essentially aid in breakdown and excretion of chemicals and toxins in foods might be hindering Nardil bioavailability...ok so I researched and found that green tea extract contains a substance EGCG that inhibits these enzymes...so I though hey add this green tea extract to inhibit the sult enzymes and mabye increase nardil response...bad idea...panic/anxiety/bp issues....so be careful when playing with MAOI's. Research alone is not enough because they dont know enough about these old drugs. Take the supplement in small doses first ok...see how you feel then move up. Hate to see you in a bad position like I was...it sucked

--------------


> Thank you very much for your reply... you are right... I may be jumping to conclusions too soon before I know how it is really going to work for me. On a side note, you mentioned different things you can take to increase bioavailability, absorption, etc... I had been researching a little bit, and came across Bioperine which supposedly greatly enhances the absorption of vitamins, minerals, meds, etc...) and supposedly it helps a great deal... I am going to research a bit more, but it is good food for thought to have something that will stretch my dollar in case I need to keep upping the dose (as so many people end up doing). Maybe someone else has had experience with Bioperine and Nardil combinations? It would be interesting to hear feedback on this combination... thanks again!

 

Re: Bioperine/nardil combination maybe? Any feedback?

Posted by swoody on March 27, 2009, at 1:03:30

In reply to Re: Bioperine/nardil combination maybe? Any feedback? swoody, posted by Phillipa on March 27, 2009, at 0:11:36

Thank you, Phillipa. I still might go to a compounding pharmacy (if the price is right) much later down the road if I have to keep upping the dosage. I believe that Myco stated that upon research, it turns out the "old" nardil didn't have an enteric coating anyway... but if you are already doing the compounding pharmacy route Phillipa, what difference have you noticed (that is if you are having them put an enteric coating on Nardil)?

Also Myco, yeah... I hear ya on being careful not to mess around with the MAOI's. I hope to hear some feedback on the before mentioned combination, and if I do indeed try Bioperine with Nardil, I will start VERY small... and that is IF I have to keep upping the dose of my Nardil. I have always been very careful with what I put into my body... so far the cautious approach has paid off:) Anyway, supposedly MAOI's can greatly increase the effects of stimulants, but I wouldn't think something as mild as green tea would cause that nasty reaction you had... just goes to show that nobody can predict how different combinations will react with different people.

It would still be interesting to read some feedback if anyone has tried Bioperine with Nardil... experiences, anyone?

 

Re: Bioperine/nardil combination maybe? Any feedback? swoody

Posted by myco on March 27, 2009, at 11:19:27

In reply to Re: Bioperine/nardil combination maybe? Any feedback?, posted by swoody on March 27, 2009, at 1:03:30

Swoody....run this post through the alternative board here. Black pepper extract experiences with meds may be more abundant under that section. Otherwise your post could sit here unanswered for ages as most people here are on rx meds only usually.

----------------------------

> Thank you, Phillipa. I still might go to a compounding pharmacy (if the price is right) much later down the road if I have to keep upping the dosage. I believe that Myco stated that upon research, it turns out the "old" nardil didn't have an enteric coating anyway... but if you are already doing the compounding pharmacy route Phillipa, what difference have you noticed (that is if you are having them put an enteric coating on Nardil)?
>
> Also Myco, yeah... I hear ya on being careful not to mess around with the MAOI's. I hope to hear some feedback on the before mentioned combination, and if I do indeed try Bioperine with Nardil, I will start VERY small... and that is IF I have to keep upping the dose of my Nardil. I have always been very careful with what I put into my body... so far the cautious approach has paid off:) Anyway, supposedly MAOI's can greatly increase the effects of stimulants, but I wouldn't think something as mild as green tea would cause that nasty reaction you had... just goes to show that nobody can predict how different combinations will react with different people.
>
> It would still be interesting to read some feedback if anyone has tried Bioperine with Nardil... experiences, anyone?

 

Re: Compounding pharmacy for enteric coated nardil?

Posted by Zana on March 27, 2009, at 14:03:00

In reply to Compounding pharmacy for enteric coated nardil?, posted by swoody on March 26, 2009, at 16:41:50

I am really curious about how it goes with the nardil since MAOIs may be the next thing my pdoc recommends since I have also been through all the SSRIs, atypicals, stimulants etc.
I tried the Ensam patch which was very helpful with my depression but developed a rash in my mouth after the first couple of months.
Have you had side effects with the Nardil? Increased appetite is always mentioned. Increase appetite seems to be a side effect of almost everything. Doesn't seem fair that you have to get fat to feel better...
Thanz for any info.
Zana

 

Re: Compounding pharmacy for enteric coated nardil? Zana

Posted by myco on March 27, 2009, at 14:19:34

In reply to Re: Compounding pharmacy for enteric coated nardil?, posted by Zana on March 27, 2009, at 14:03:00

Me or him hun?

Increased appettite? oh yes....carb and sweet cravings make you ravenous and snarf down the stuff like a pig at the trough just watching your *ss get bigger by the second LOL well that an exaggeration but ya increase carb and sweet cravings is common...I still have that bad once and awhile...nardil lowers blood sugar as you know im sure so its as if my body says sugar now munch munch munch. But weight isnt necessarily gonna run wild with nardil. You will gain some for sure...in the area of 5lbs easily...this is water weight though. The weight will come slowly over months and for some never stops coming. You can fight it though with diet and exercise adjustments...but these are not well developed skills with depressed people who tend to overeat crap and be lazy...so most gain quite a bit of weight and bitch about it without trying to lose - hey thats not everyone. dont be offended but true in many cases

> I am really curious about how it goes with the nardil since MAOIs may be the next thing my pdoc recommends since I have also been through all the SSRIs, atypicals, stimulants etc.
> I tried the Ensam patch which was very helpful with my depression but developed a rash in my mouth after the first couple of months.
> Have you had side effects with the Nardil? Increased appetite is always mentioned. Increase appetite seems to be a side effect of almost everything. Doesn't seem fair that you have to get fat to feel better...
> Thanz for any info.
> Zana

 

Re: Bioperine/nardil combination maybe? Any feedb (nm)

Posted by swoody on April 1, 2009, at 20:35:34

In reply to Re: Bioperine/nardil combination maybe? Any feedback? swoody, posted by myco on March 27, 2009, at 11:19:27

 

Re: Bioperine/nardil combination maybe? Any feedb

Posted by swoody on April 1, 2009, at 20:49:02

In reply to Re: Bioperine/nardil combination maybe? Any feedb (nm), posted by swoody on April 1, 2009, at 20:35:34

So I'm on my first week of Nardil- 15 mg... and am going to be increasing the dose weekly or bi-weekly by 15 mg each time under doctor supervision till a theraputic dose is reached. I picked up some Bioperine at my local health food store and am going to save it until I start feeling the effects of Nardil. It should also be noted that I'm not going to take Bioperine with any other substances that could potentially interact with Nardil, as supposedly bioperine signifigantly inhibits the p450 enzyme (which is what I want) so taking Nardil and Bioperine close to ingesting anything else that could interact with it all could be potentially dangerous... so I will be very cautious.

 

Re: Bioperine/nardil combination maybe? Any feedb

Posted by zonked on April 21, 2009, at 15:58:15

In reply to Re: Bioperine/nardil combination maybe? Any feedb, posted by swoody on April 1, 2009, at 20:49:02

Did anyone have success with Bioperine/Nardil? If so, how do you take the two together?

Thanks -
zonked

 

Re: Compounding pharmacy for enteric coated nardil? myco

Posted by michael marozik on June 10, 2009, at 15:34:31

In reply to Re: Compounding pharmacy for enteric coated nardil? swoody, posted by myco on March 26, 2009, at 21:04:14

what about gelatin capsules, and just grind up nardil and put into gelatin capsules????

 

Re: Bioperine/nardil combination maybe? Any feedback?

Posted by NARDIL KING on July 17, 2012, at 18:26:43

In reply to Bioperine/nardil combination maybe? Any feedback? myco, posted by swoody on March 26, 2009, at 23:49:03

> Thank you very much for your reply... you are right... I may be jumping to conclusions too soon before I know how it is really going to work for me. On a side note, you mentioned different things you can take to increase bioavailability, absorption, etc... I had been researching a little bit, and came across Bioperine which supposedly greatly enhances the absorption of vitamins, minerals, meds, etc...) and supposedly it helps a great deal... I am going to research a bit more, but it is good food for thought to have something that will stretch my dollar in case I need to keep upping the dose (as so many people end up doing). Maybe someone else has had experience with Bioperine and Nardil combinations? It would be interesting to hear feedback on this combination... thanks again!Ok i have been on nardil for 17 years and when it was reformulated in 2003 you must tweak and adjust the new version in order to get it to work like the old version. 1.new version metabolizes less so you might have to take 2 at a time in order to boost the intake. for ex. 2 in the a.m. 1 at noon 2 in evening 2 at bedtime tweak and adjust to your liking. the old nardil would work just by taking 1 three or four times a day...not anymore!!!!!!...also the new nardil seems to have lost a lot of its anxiolotic properties and social phobia ... neurontin will help in this area because it boosts gaba and helps the new nardil boost its gaba boosting properties which i believe are where its anti-anxiety effects come from

 

Re: Bioperine/nardil combination maybe? Any feedback?

Posted by NARDIL KING on July 17, 2012, at 18:27:26

In reply to Bioperine/nardil combination maybe? Any feedback? myco, posted by swoody on March 26, 2009, at 23:49:03

Ok i have been on nardil for 17 years and when it was reformulated in 2003 you must tweak and adjust the new version in order to get it to work like the old version. 1.new version metabolizes less so you might have to take 2 at a time in order to boost the intake. for ex. 2 in the a.m. 1 at noon 2 in evening 2 at bedtime tweak and adjust to your liking. the old nardil would work just by taking 1 three or four times a day...not anymore!!!!!!...also the new nardil seems to have lost a lot of its anxiolotic properties and social phobia ... neurontin will help in this area because it boosts gaba and helps the new nardil boost its gaba boosting properties which i believe are where its anti-anxiety effects come from

 

Re: Bioperine/nardil combination maybe? Any feedb

Posted by redcard1981 on August 21, 2012, at 5:32:57

In reply to Re: Bioperine/nardil combination maybe? Any feedb, posted by swoody on April 1, 2009, at 20:49:02

I have been taking bioperine with nardil for six weeks now and can tell a big difference. The anxiety and depression are gone.

 

Re: Compounding pharmacy for enteric coated nardil?

Posted by greg rizzo on January 8, 2020, at 8:55:11

In reply to Re: Compounding pharmacy for enteric coated nardil? swoody, posted by myco on March 26, 2009, at 21:04:14

You can buy bulk empty enteric apsules on Amazom. I think 500 cost about $30 including shipping. Just started using them myself. You can also use Bioperine, which increases bioavailabily of nutrients and meds. Also available on Amazon at a nominal charge.

 

Re: Compounding pharmacy for enteric coated nardil?

Posted by greg rizzo on January 8, 2020, at 8:59:55

In reply to Re: Compounding pharmacy for enteric coated nardil? myco, posted by michael marozik on June 10, 2009, at 15:34:31

According to a compounding pharmacist I met with, it is best not to crush the Nardil tablets. Just put them in whole inside empty enteric capsules available on Amazon for about $30 for 500. Use size 0 empty capsules.

 

Re: Bioperine/nardil combination maybe? Any feedback?

Posted by greg rizzo on January 8, 2020, at 9:04:41

In reply to Re: Bioperine/nardil combination maybe? Any feedback? swoody, posted by Phillipa on March 27, 2009, at 0:11:36

Main problems with compounding old Nardi;: met with 2 companies. Neither had a source for pure phenelzine (although there are sources listed on the net.) Second twist is that is it very expensive to have it compounded. Or so they told me.

 

Re: Bioperine/nardil combination maybe? Any feedback?

Posted by greg rizzo on January 8, 2020, at 9:11:53

In reply to Re: Bioperine/nardil combination maybe? Any feedback?, posted by swoody on March 27, 2009, at 1:03:30

Theorized that old Nardil did have some form of enteric coating. Likely it was the Carnuba wax that was applied to them.
So there's another theory--could we coat new nardil with carnuba wax to make them more effective Dunno.
Also there is literature stating that stomach acid is the culprit that metabolizes new nardil so quickly. Use an antacid? Again, don't know the answer to this possibility.

 

Re: Compounding pharmacy for enteric coated nardil?

Posted by greg rizzo on January 9, 2020, at 16:08:54

In reply to Re: Compounding pharmacy for enteric coated nardil? swoody, posted by myco on March 26, 2009, at 21:04:14

Wrote this request on FDA website under Freedom of Information but probably won't do any good.\
--------------------------------------

TO: FDA UNDER FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT EFFECTIVE DATE JULY 4, 1967
I plan to compound the Parke Davis version of Nardil ( (phenelzine/phenelzine sulphate)
and am requesting the percentage of each excipient (inactive ingredients ONLY).
I DO NOT NEED THE LIST OF THE EXCIPIENTS, ONLY THE PERCENTAGES OF THE INACTIVE INGREDIENTS.
The reason I plan to compound the Park Davis version of nardil is due to the fact that
when Phizer acquired the manufacturing rights (2003) to nardil they changed the list of
excipients formula, and percentages of the excipients (inactive ingredients) as well that were essential,and previously used by Parke Davis. This change resulted in a tragic and dramatic reduction in efficacy. In short, Nardil no longer works even remotely like the Parke Davis formula of old.
--The Nardil using community (only 85,000 nation wide) was in an uproar with many written
and oral complaints to Phizer to no avail. They claimed they changed the formula and
moved the manufacturing to Paraguay only to extend shelf life. BULL! Profitabiliity of
Nardil for Nardil must have been so low that effective in 2019, they no longer
manufacture Nardil at all.
I desperately hope you can help me in my request. Since 'old nardil' was discontined I
and and thousands of others have suffered greatly, and continuely consider seriously
the notion of suicide. The situation is critical.

Thank You!!! GregRizzo


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