![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 26 to 50 of 50. Go back in thread:
Posted by shadows721 on November 24, 2003, at 23:33:43
In reply to Re: neurontin withdrawal - WELT TYPE RASH, posted by Jadzia on November 24, 2003, at 7:46:51
I am so sorry you are experiencing such awful withdrawal. I too am on Neurontin for tremors, but it doesn't seem that affective. It did help dull my back pain. I haven't noticed it really helped my anxiety at least not for long. How long were you on this med before you found out about the physical dependency? Is there a website on this? After reading the article about this manufacturer, I don't know what to believe about neurontin.
Posted by Snowie on November 25, 2003, at 5:20:41
In reply to Re: neurontin withdrawal - WELT TYPE RASH, posted by Jadzia on November 24, 2003, at 7:46:51
Jadzia,
I'm responding to your posts for several reasons - but before I start I want to tell you I'm very sorry that you had such a bad reaction to Neurontin.
I've taken Neurontin for several years for anxiety. It works great for me in smaller doses than perhaps what is prescribed for pain management or for seizures. I started taking Neurontin on a lark when Xanax stopped being as effective as it had been years before.
I have also gotten rashes from meds. The first rash was on the upper part of my back a week or so after taking Zoloft. I went off Zoloft immediately without calling my then pdoc. The second rash, much worse than the first, was on every inch of my stomach below my navel a week or so after taking BuSpar. It was beet red with bumps everywhere, and itched like crazy. I called my then pdoc and he told me to continue taking BuSpar, but to take Benadryl for the rash. He said Benadryl should get rid of the rash. He was right, but this med was terrible for me. I stopped taking BuSpar a couple of months later. I've taken a lot of meds over the years, and the one thing I've read over and over is that if you develop a rash as a result of taking a med, to stop taking it and call your pdoc. I believe my pdoc should have told me to stop taking it, but then that is one reason he is no longer my pdoc. Why I developed rashes to meds that most people don't is unknown, but we're all different and our body chemistries react differently to different meds. I don't think Zoloft or BuSpar are bad drugs since they apparently help millions of people worldwide. They just didn't help me.
I've also heard lots of people say that Neurontin didn't do anything to help them with anxiety. Why it helps me with anxiety is a mystery, but it does. I don't overanalyze that aspect of it, but since it works, I take it.
Snowie
Posted by Jadzia on November 25, 2003, at 7:43:30
In reply to The truth revealed on neurontin on a news program, posted by shadows721 on November 24, 2003, at 23:10:46
I want you all to know that I didn't make a "Conclusion" regarding Neurontin by watching one T.V. show, i.e., MSNBC Dateline.
Watching that Dateline Program ONLY REINFORCED what I had known all along............NEURONTIN IS NOT THE "SAFE" DRUG IT HAS BEEN MADE OUT TO BE.
I go the distance...........I investigate ALL SIDES.........I dig deep into the Internet.......I read Any & Every "thing" I can find on a particular "subject", in this case, Neurontin.
Did you know if you mix Neurontin with Depakote it can cause Stevens-Johnson Syndrome????
Of course we don't know.............BECAUSE THE DRUG COMPANIES DON'T WANT US TO KNOW.....They don't even want your Doctor to know.
I merely ran across a "Medical Paper" published by a Doctor who is also a Psychiatrist. He "Observed" this horrible & unwanted "side-effect" occur in SEVERAL of his Patients........thus began his "investigation" into Neurontin & Depakote.
I URGE ANYONE who has experienced "unwanted side-effects" from Neurontin, or any other Medication, to go to the FDA's (Food & Drug Administration) web site and file an "Adverse Reaction" Report.
This is how the FDA "Regulates" the Drug Manufacturer's.............this is the ONLY way the FDA can help us. This is where Attorney's go to find out about "Potential" HUGE Lawsuits against Drug Manufacturers.
That is how one Attorney found ME........and they will NOT SOLICIT your "business".........it is against the law for an Attorney to do that. What the Attorney did is, he emailed me requesting a copy of the "Paper" I wrote on my experience with Neurontin.
This Attorney is not filing a "Class Action" suit, he is filing on behalf of "Individuals" who have been harmed by the use of Neurontin.
If you want his name and email address, please contact me at mail4debbie@sbcglobal.net.
Posted by SandyWeb on November 25, 2003, at 7:44:06
In reply to Re: in defense of neurontin, posted by platinumbride on November 20, 2003, at 10:28:36
I have been on Neurontin for a few months now. I'm at 1600mg/day for social anxiety. It really has worked wonders for me. It really seems to be working in multiple ways. I feel more stable now than I have since my childhood!
It is such a shame that one med doesn't work the same way on every person. Then again, that would mean that we would be too much alike....and how boring would that be? *smile*
There is a list that is devoted to Neurontin. You may want to join it. The messages come directly to your email address.
Neurontin-L-request@Maelstrom.StJohns.Edu
Just send a Subscribe message to the above address.
Good luck everyone!
SandyWeb
Posted by Jadzia on November 25, 2003, at 8:06:12
In reply to To: Jadzia, posted by shadows721 on November 24, 2003, at 23:33:43
It didn't take long for my Physical Addiction to become apparent to me..........maybe six months into the use of Neurontin..........but NO ONE BELIEVED ME!!!!!!
Because Neurontin doesn't make you "feel good", I would often forget to take it. I thought I was coming down with the Flu.........until it happened several times, and I put two and two together. When I would take the Neurontin the "withdrawal symptoms" would disappear within 20 to 30 minutes.
So I did a "controlled" test on myself.
Because Neurontin is NOT SUPPOSED TO BE ADDICTING, I should not have had ANY problem with abrupt cessation of this Medication. So I STOPPED taking it..........by day two I was so ill that I thought I was going to die.
I couldn't stand it anymore so I took two 400mg of Neurontin.........low and behold......within 20 to 30 minutes ALL WITHDRAWAL SYMPTOMS had subsided.
I am NOT ON ANY OTHER MEDICATIONS.........Any other posibility has been "eliminated" by my Psychiatrist............even "humiliating" weekly drug test for "street-drugs" have proved I am NOT ON ANY OTHER MEDICATIONS.
My "precious" Doctor was FORCED by 15 other PDoc's to make me "drug test"...........They simply didn't BELIEVE ME that I was Physically Addicted to Neurontin.
Now EVERYONE BELIEVES ME........especially my Doctor.........she is so proud of me........she is so happy that I proved them WRONG.
She is also HORRIFIED that she was OUT AND OUT LIED TO.........and that now, there is the possibility that many of her Patients have been placed in harms way.
One way or another, if even ONE in a THOUSAND people are adversly "affected" by Neurontin, then think about how many people that TRULY IS........MILLIONS OF PEOPLE ARE ON NEURONTIN.
HUNDREDS have emailed me with their "horror stories"..........and I am just one person they are reaching out to.
Posted by Jadzia on November 25, 2003, at 8:20:27
In reply to Re: neurontin withdrawal - WELT TYPE RASH » Jadzia, posted by Snowie on November 25, 2003, at 5:20:41
In the begining, when I was prescribed Neurontin for "Anger Control", I told my Psychiatrist that I felt like I constantly had this HUGE KNOT in my stomach..........and that I felt like POISEN was running through my viens instead of blood.
So he prescribed me Neurontin........for the fist few months it felt like a "God Send".......it felt like this HUGE BLACK CANCEROUS TUMOR had been removed from my stomach.
But soon, as Neurontin wormed its way into my mind, it "turned" on me.........I became UNCONTROLLABLE.......my simple "Anger" turned into Uncontrollable Anger, Rage & Hostility, with NO REMORSE.
I developed IBS, I developed a Welt Type Rash, I became HOMOCIDAL..........I wanted to KILL PEOPLE. I plotted and planned many a persons death.........thank GOD that my "intellect" overrides my "emotions", and thank GOD that I have the "Fear of God" instilled in me. I became a "Prisoner" in my OWN HOME.
I have NEVER in my entire life, seen one drug wreak such havoc upon so many.
Posted by shadows721 on November 25, 2003, at 16:33:15
In reply to Re: neurontin withdrawal RASH - In the Beginning, posted by Jadzia on November 25, 2003, at 8:20:27
Is there anything to help you through this horrible withdrawal. This stuff is scaring me now. I have been on it off and on for 6 months. I do find when I take 900 mg that I feel very depressed. I need to take an anticonvulsant medication for my tremor, but I don't know of one that isn't addictive. Do you?
Posted by Lynn O on November 25, 2003, at 21:42:26
In reply to Re: in defense of neurontin, posted by SandyWeb on November 25, 2003, at 7:44:06
I have been taking Neurontin for 4 months, to combat pain due to Fibromyalgia. I have had extremely good luck with it for pain. The anti-anxiety component is a nice side-effect for me, but I was given this prescription for pain. I am able to live pain-free because of this med. If I miss my middle dose of the day, I start to feel slightly sore, about 6 hours later. Taking the 3rd/last dose of the day at that time causes the pain to subside. It has been a world of difference for me, and the longer I take it, the less pain I'm in. The dose I take is 300mg, 3x per day. If I didn't take this, I would have to walk around with 12 hour Lidoderm patches (Lidocain) applied to various body parts, which is extremely unattractive! :)HaHa!
Posted by Lynn O on November 25, 2003, at 22:32:39
In reply to Re: neurontin withdrawal, posted by karen_kay on November 23, 2003, at 9:01:36
> Hi! Thought I might add my experience with the drug. I have Bipolar disorder and was taking 1200 mgs of Neurontin 4 times a day for anxiety. This is because my pdoc didn't want to take a chance of me getting addicted to benzos. The neurontin helped me out a lot. I really stopped pacing, cleaning obsessively, grinding my teeth, and other things. But, I put on weight. And it was hard to hold a conversation with me. And therapy began to really do its job. So, I stopped Neurontin cold turkey (I wouldn't suggest!). I didn't have any side effects, that I can recall. But, while I was taking Neurontin I did have a suicide attempt. Whether Neurontin had anything to do with it is beyond me. Neurontin helped me get my life in control. But, when I felt I didn't need it anymore, I quit taking it. Now, next week I have to tell my doctor I haven't taken it in over 2 months. He might be mad at me. Same thing for the antipsychotic Abilify. Who knows, after the doctor visit, I might need to resume taking it!!
Hi Karen,
I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that we all pay our Dr.'s to help US with controlling our emotions (through meds, etc.)NOT THAT WE PAY THE DR. SO HE/SHE CAN CONTROL US! Maybe you were kidding around-I'm not sure-but if you are afraid to tell your Dr. something because he might be mad at you, do you think you should consider the fact that HE is controlling you? (This is not necessarily the same thing as helping you) Just a thought, and of course everyone's situation and diagnosis are different. I have been diagnosed with ADHD, Depression, and just in the last few weeks while talking to Dr.'s and counselors about my Daughter's recent Anxiety Disorder diagnosis, they have made an unofficial diagnosis of my own Anxiety Disorder. I understand your relationship with your Dr. may be different than mine due to the Bipolar, and past suicide attempt. I was just a little concerned with your fear/anxiety in telling him. I feel that even though I have a particular diagnosis, and the Dr. believes I should take a certain med. because it will help me, it is still MY choice to take it- or not. I may be way off, and hope I haven't offended you. :)
Posted by Lynn O on November 25, 2003, at 22:46:40
In reply to Re: The truth revealed............NOT COMPLETELY, posted by Jadzia on November 25, 2003, at 7:43:30
Hello,
Thanks for being so thorough in your investigation. I have a very clear idea of how you feel about this medication.
I was just wondering what Depakote is usually prescribed for? - (I have never heard of it until reading the name on postings here.)
Also please tell me what Stevens-Johnson Syndrome is - I am not familiar with that either.
Thanks,
Lynn O
Posted by Jadzia on November 26, 2003, at 7:24:19
In reply to Re: The truth revealed............NOT COMPLETELY » Jadzia, posted by Lynn O on November 25, 2003, at 22:46:40
Depakote is supposed to be a "Mood Stabilizer"........yeh.......stabilize this!!!!!!!
Didn't do a thing for me........by week three I was having "involuntary" jerking of my head, arms, legs, etc..........and I was on Neurontin & Depakote at the same time.
No, I didn't develope Stevens-Johnson Syndrome........I found out about it because I was researching the "Welt Type Rash" that I came down with shortly after being placed on Neurontin.
Stevens-Johnson Syndrom is a "Reaction" triggered by a Genetic Code when certain Medications are interacted with one another.
It causes a Rash, that turns into severe leisions, and if not diagnosed and treated properly, a person will end up in the "Burn Unit" of a Hospital...........their skin just falls off.
Just type in Stevens-Johnson Syndrome into your browser..........that will give you a more concise and informed view on this devastating syndrome.
Posted by Lynn O on November 26, 2003, at 9:03:35
In reply to Re: The truth revealed............NOT COMPLETELY, posted by Jadzia on November 26, 2003, at 7:24:19
Oh How Horrible!
Thanks so much for the info.!
:)Lynn O
Posted by Caleb96 on November 26, 2003, at 10:55:53
In reply to Re: neurontin withdrawal » karen_kay, posted by Lynn O on November 25, 2003, at 22:32:39
Lynn:
Your post is quit interesting. I never realized Neurontin was used as a drug to treat psych problems. I take Neurontin for trigeminal neuralgia--it's an excruciating pain that radiates across one side of the face. I only get it occasionally, so I take Neurontin on an "as needed" basis.
I take Effexor and Wellbutrin for depression and that combo works well for me. Sometimes I get hyped-up from the Effexor and Wellbutrin, and I'll take 1 mg Klonopin to relax. I used to drink heavily several years ago, but I don't touch alcohol anymore. I think not drinking really does allow the meds to work better.
Regards,
Caleb
Posted by Lynn O on November 26, 2003, at 11:24:40
In reply to Re: neurontin withdrawal, posted by Caleb96 on November 26, 2003, at 10:55:53
Hi Caleb,
I never knew you could take Wellbutrin and Effexor at the same time. I just came off Effexor (with no problems) to go on Wellbutrin since it doesn't have sexual side effects.(No interest in)
I know I had good results in the past with Wellbutrin, but feel I am not doing as well on it as the Effexor. -Tend to be crying very easily which has not been the case in the last year+ on Effexor. I am trying to sort out if this is due to a combination of stress from my daughter's anxiety problems, lack of sleep, and feeling a little down due to the death of a friend/aquantaince from church. I suspect it's the Wellbutrin not working as well as Effexor. I have a more severe form of depression than I had in the past while on Wellbutrin. I am finding here that many people take a combination of various antidepressants together-which is something that had never been suggested to me before. Certainly info. to file away in the back of my head for the future.
Take care-
Lynn O
Posted by Caleb96 on November 26, 2003, at 12:29:29
In reply to Re: neurontin withdrawal » Caleb96, posted by Lynn O on November 26, 2003, at 11:24:40
Lynn:
Several years ago (about '93) I was taking Zoloft for D. It worked great but gave me sexual (no orgasm)problems. At first I didn't even care I felt so great. It was the first time in my life I wasn't looking at the world through a fog. I even got married (two years earlier I never even dated!). I'm still happily married to that same great woman.
Anyway, I complained to the psych about the side effects. Believe it or not, doctors were really clueless about this issue with SSRIs (I'm sure this doesn't apply to Dr. Bob!). I think they just saw an incredible, positive change in their patients and felt like side effects were a minor problem. I would frequently stop taking the Zoloft for 4 or 5 days to get my...ahem, my "woody" back to normal. But having to plan that far in advance kills some of the romance.
Anyway, the psych I was seeing at that time put me on Wellbutrin because it's not an SSRI and it doesn't cause sexual side effects. The problem was it didn't help my D. I was OK for a while, but in the dead of winter I started getting very down and moody. So I went back on the Zoloft just to get some relief.
Many years later, the Zoloft quit working, and I spiralled into a major D episode. I tried Remeron but that turned me into a zombie. All I wanted to do was sleep and eat. That's when I was put on Effexor. The change was nothing short of miraculous. I was better in 2 days. The problem is Effexor has the ole SSRI side effects. (Technically, Effexor isn't an SSRI, it's an SNRI, but it's still a strong serotonin reuptake inhibitor. From the literature I've read, Effexor isn't a very strong inhibitor of norepinephrine reuptake in the CNS, however, it does raise BP so I'm a little confused on this mechanism.) I was put on Wellbutrin in the hope that it would counter the elevated serotonin effect. No dice. I still have the same problems with Effexor. The Wellbutrin hypes me up, which I like because when I was taking Effexor and Klonopin alone, I would get very sleepy if I sat and got comfortable--usually in the wrong place like business meetings!
I've heard of MDs prescribing Wellbutrin with lots of different SSRIs. For some folks, it does counteract the sexual side effects.
Regards and Good Mental Health,
Caleb
Posted by Lynn O on November 27, 2003, at 1:30:50
In reply to Re: neurontin withdrawal, posted by Caleb96 on November 26, 2003, at 12:29:29
Thank You.
Too tired to respond with anything more than that-it's 2:30am.
But thank you.
-Lynn O
Posted by Caleb96 on November 27, 2003, at 10:16:41
In reply to Re: neurontin withdrawal » Caleb96, posted by Lynn O on November 27, 2003, at 1:30:50
Lynn:
No problem. I hope I was able to help a little.
This stuff I'm reading about Neurontin is very disturbing. I worked on my PhD in molecular biology for almost 3 years, so there basically nothing anyone can fake when it comes to science and get it past me. What REALLY disturbs me about Neurontin (gabapentin) is that the researchers have basically no clue how this stuff works on the cellular level. They don't know where or what it's binding to, or whether it works by some intermediate mechanism that doesn't involve direct binding to a neuronal receptor. Unfortunately, this is true of many (if not most) new drugs. Drugs like the benzodiazepines are extremely well understood with respect to their mechanism of action at the molecular level. But they've been around for 50 years, and basic researchers have had a chance to study them from every angle. I'm not saying the book is closed on benzos, but they're better understood than most drugs.
Right now, a company can submit a drug application to the FDA and say something like: "The molecular mechanism of Drug X is poorly understood at this time, but it is believed that X facilitates the binding of neurotransmitter Y to the receptor site Z on post-synaptic neurons." That statement is perfectly acceptable even though it could be translated "Our drug company doesn't have a damn clue how this drug is working."
Another one I love is "DRUG X is believed to mediate the sensitivity of ligand-gated chloride ion channels to binding with its endogenous ligand." Again this can be more clearly translated: "Mr. FDA Regulator, we don't have a clue how this stuff works, and we know you don't give a rat's ass anyway, so let's just skip this part and get on with the results from our six-week clinical trials."
I can tell you from my 16 years in the corporate world that most executives DO worry about the concequences of their actions. They don't want to do anything that's illegal or unethical, but when push comes to shove, they'll go right up to line. And if necessary, they'll stand in that grey area if it might cost them their jobs to do otherwise. They're no different from CPAs or trial lawyers. They look for every loophole in the book (or regulations) to expedite their plans. Unfortunately, there are a fair share of Ken Lays (of ENRON fame) out there who totally ignore the law and do anything to get rich.
Corporate executives look at financial statements and stock prices. Their primary allegiance is to the stockholders, not to their employees. Employees are an expendible liability (on the balance sheet) where they show up as "salaries paid" or some such entry. Corporate executives are "quarter-sighted." By that I mean they primarily look at the next financial quarter. This is very dangerous, as it tends to overvalue the present at the expense of the long run.
The reason we have no clue how Neurontin works is because research is expensive. It's a lot cheaper for a company to ignore the mechanistic aspect of a drug. "Let's just focus on the big-picture effects, if it works on the clinical level, and people don't get serious side effects or die, then run with it. Get it approved and start pushing it like the greatest thing since toilet paper."
You and I and virtually everyone on this web are guinea pigs for the drug companies. We're the ones who'll untimately determine the long term efficacy of all the psychoactive drugs that these companies are churning out. I have no doubt that some of these chemicals will be found to cause brain damage in the long run. Another might help Parkinson's patients or improve memory. It's a big game of roulette. Companies should be required to examine the molecular mechanism of their drug. Saying "the mechanism of this drug is poorly understood" is NOT acceptable. If they'd quit firing thousands of scientists to prop up sagging stock prices, they would have the resources to do the necessary studies.
I can just see massive class action lawsuits on the horizon. I think the FDA shoud require Pfizer to go back and demonstrate the efficacy of Neurontin. I'm not convinced it does anything, but I'm only one data point, and you can't extrapolate any useful conclusions from one point.
Regards,
Caleb
Posted by dms777smd on November 30, 2003, at 23:26:35
In reply to Re: neurontin withdrawal » Nicole, posted by Snowie on November 30, 2000, at 21:57:10
Really,I think that is kinda bullshit.The Xanax you're on is very much helping your anxiety.Even though u don't realize that,,,,,,,,,but that is what's really happening.Neurontin doesn't do shit.Sorry,but that pill is worthless.I'm sorry to the company,but fuck Pfizer.
Posted by Snowie on November 30, 2003, at 23:54:49
In reply to Re: neurontin withdrawal » Snowie, posted by dms777smd on November 30, 2003, at 23:26:35
Each to his or her own. Only I can say what's happening in my body.
Snowie
> Really,I think that is kinda bullshit.The Xanax you're on is very much helping your anxiety.Even though u don't realize that,,,,,,,,,but that is what's really happening.Neurontin doesn't do shit.Sorry,but that pill is worthless.I'm sorry to the company,but fuck Pfizer.
Posted by Emme on December 1, 2003, at 0:10:21
In reply to neurotin withdrawal, posted by Nicole on November 28, 2000, at 13:41:14
Holy cow. I didn't know people could have such bad effects from Neurontin. I'm sorry to hear that you folks have had such a hard time. I personally liked it. It soothed raw, ragged nerves and overstimulation with minimal side effects. I took between 300 and 900 mg. When I stopped it, I slid right off it very easily in a couple of weeks or so. I stopped it on the advice of a hematologist because my white blood cell count dropped a little below the lab's reference range. She thought neurontin was the culprit because it is known to do that sometimes. But my WBC has stayed a little bit low, so I suspect it's probably the Lamictal. Since my WBC is stable and the differential has been normal, we've seen no need to stop Lamictal.
Emme
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 1, 2003, at 11:04:06
In reply to Re: neurontin withdrawal » Snowie, posted by dms777smd on November 30, 2003, at 23:26:35
> Really,I think that is kinda bullsh*t... Neurontin doesn't do sh*t... I'm sorry to the company,but f*ck Pfizer.
It's fine to have strong opinions, but please don't use language that could offend others:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by dms777smd on December 1, 2003, at 15:20:05
In reply to Re: please be civil » dms777smd, posted by Dr. Bob on December 1, 2003, at 11:04:06
> > Really,I think that is kinda bullsh*t... Neurontin doesn't do sh*t... I'm sorry to the company,but f*ck Pfizer.
>
> It's fine to have strong opinions, but please don't use language that could offend others:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
>
> Thanks,
>
> BobSorry Bob,,,,,,sometimes I just get really mad at the drug companies.I'll really try to keep the language down.
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 1, 2003, at 16:53:24
In reply to Re: please be civil » Dr. Bob, posted by dms777smd on December 1, 2003, at 15:20:05
Posted by wallofchaos on November 3, 2005, at 21:04:30
In reply to Re: neurontin withdrawal » karen_kay, posted by Lynn O on November 25, 2003, at 22:32:39
Hmm..some of you express great anger about neurontin. What I thought was helping my daily moods has lead to the break up of my beloved.
Dull, non emotional, detatched, angered easily, and just generally very on edge. Yet I can't live without it. I freak out with withdrawls that are far worse than any benzo ive ever been on. As far as gaining weight. I'm not sure if it was the Seroquel or Neurontin but I gained 30lbs and now have cellulite here and there. im only 180. which is ideal for my hight but I look a lil pudgy here and there.As far as Phizer. Well I live in Kalamazoo where all if not most Phizer drugs are made. I will agree with you that I hate Phizer with every ounce of my body due to their shady dealings.
Hurting the Kalamazoo Community financially and who knows what they are doing to our ground water here. The city water here is so bad its hard to drink. Tastes like Pool water. you drink and your mouth is dryer then it was before you took a drink.
Good game to drugs. We all hope for help with our problems, We get screwed in the end. small price to pay? I dont know.
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 3, 2005, at 22:31:46
In reply to Re: neurontin withdrawal, posted by wallofchaos on November 3, 2005, at 21:04:30
> Hmm..some of you express great anger about neurontin...
Sorry if it's confusing here, but I'd like to redirect this thread to Psycho-Babble Withdrawal. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/wdrawl/20051018/msgs/575215.html
Thanks,
Bob
This is the end of the thread.
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