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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by FredPotter on November 27, 2002, at 22:53:11
In reply to Re: Turmeric - Amounts, posted by Larry Hoover on November 27, 2002, at 20:09:36
Curcumin suggests by its name that cumin would also act as an anti-inflammatory
Posted by kara lynne on November 27, 2002, at 23:47:43
In reply to Re: Turmeric - Amounts, posted by Larry Hoover on November 27, 2002, at 20:09:36
I have an herbal MSM supplement with 200mgs. of Curcumin in it (aka curcuma longa, aka turmeric aka the chinese herb "Yu Jin"). Yu Jin can be used with other herbs for (among other things) pain and gall bladder disorders. Jiang Huang (another form of turmeric) is used to help abdominal pain, menstrual pain and arthritis, especially in the shoulders.
Posted by IsoM on November 28, 2002, at 0:12:49
In reply to Re: Turmeric - Amounts, posted by Larry Hoover on November 27, 2002, at 20:09:36
I was aware that it contained curcumin & it was responsible for its anit-inflammatory properties but wasn't aware it acted as a COX-2 inhibitor. Interesting.
So can you tell me whether curcumin is heat sensitive then? And if so, at what temperature & for how long before it's deactivated? I'll do some checking around myself.
Posted by viridis on November 28, 2002, at 0:27:43
In reply to Re: Turmeric - Any herbalists out there, posted by Larry Hoover on November 27, 2002, at 18:44:38
It's good to see some confirmation of the antioxidant properties of turmeric. I've been drinking a glass of tomato juice with about half a teaspoon of ground turmeric (plus various other things like Tabasco sauce, lemon juice, Worcestershire sauce, etc.) every morning for the last couple of years. I started adding the turmeric because I'd seen a fair bit of evidence of its antioxidant properties, and it also adds an interesting flavor to the tomato juice.
Somewhere recently (I can't recall where; it was in the popular press) I vaguely recall seeing a report of a study that showed an inverse correlation between turmeric intake and incidence of certain cancers. I think the study was conducted in India -- Larry or IsoM (or anyone else), do you know anything about this? I haven't yet tried to track it down, but may do a search for it. Turmeric certainly has a long history of use in herbal medicine.
Posted by IsoM on November 28, 2002, at 1:49:33
In reply to Re: Turmeric - Any herbalists out there, posted by viridis on November 28, 2002, at 0:27:43
I can give you a long string of research abstracts on curcumin & cancer if you want, or is just that particular one from India you want? There's a number of universities in the States, among other countries, that are now doing research on its antimutagenic & antiangiogenic properties. There may be more to it also.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 28, 2002, at 7:27:01
In reply to Re: Turmeric - Amounts, posted by FredPotter on November 27, 2002, at 22:53:11
> Curcumin suggests by its name that cumin would also act as an anti-inflammatory
I can't speak to the anti-inflammatory activity of cumin, but it is a coincidence of name that cumin and curcumin are similar. There is none of the latter in the former.
Curcumin derives from the genus name for turmeric, Cucurma.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 28, 2002, at 7:45:21
In reply to Re: Turmeric - Any herbalists out there, posted by viridis on November 28, 2002, at 0:27:43
> It's good to see some confirmation of the antioxidant properties of turmeric. I've been drinking a glass of tomato juice with about half a teaspoon of ground turmeric (plus various other things like Tabasco sauce, lemon juice, Worcestershire sauce, etc.) every morning for the last couple of years. I started adding the turmeric because I'd seen a fair bit of evidence of its antioxidant properties, and it also adds an interesting flavor to the tomato juice.
Intuition can guide us to some very healthy behaviours. Good for you!
> Somewhere recently (I can't recall where; it was in the popular press) I vaguely recall seeing a report of a study that showed an inverse correlation between turmeric intake and incidence of certain cancers. I think the study was conducted in India -- Larry or IsoM (or anyone else), do you know anything about this? I haven't yet tried to track it down, but may do a search for it. Turmeric certainly has a long history of use in herbal medicine.
There is a vast, and growing, literature on the health effects of turmeric. It has strong anti-cancer activities, and multiple paths by which it does so. Rather than post abstracts, just let me encourage you to keep taking turmeric.
You ought to read this:
http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2002/jul2002_report_curcumin_01.html
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 28, 2002, at 7:58:11
In reply to Re: Curcumin Question » Larry Hoover, posted by IsoM on November 28, 2002, at 0:12:49
> I was aware that it contained curcumin & it was responsible for its anit-inflammatory properties but wasn't aware it acted as a COX-2 inhibitor. Interesting.
Well, last night, after being reminded of this activity (I'm not always mindful of my own advice), I took a teaspoon of turmeric in water. I have a bum knee, and it always hurts. Within 20 minutes, all pain was gone. Now, 10 hours later, all pain is still gone. I don't get that longevity of effect from anything else I've ever taken.
There is one caution I'd like to make. COX-2 has another name: prostaglandin endoperoxide synthase. You can undo some of the good effects of e.g. fish oil and evening primrose by blocking prostaglandin synthesis.
> So can you tell me whether curcumin is heat sensitive then? And if so, at what temperature & for how long before it's deactivated? I'll do some checking around myself.That conclusion is my unscientific (subject pool n=1, me) study of the matter. *I* don't get the same effect from cooked turmeric as I get from raw. I've also never heard of anyone saying to eat curry for arthritis pain, have you? <shrug>
I looked hard for any evidence of heat deactivation, and couldn't find any. It could be that curcumin reacts to substances in food. It has a keto-enol functional group.
Lar
Posted by bluedog on November 28, 2002, at 8:14:07
In reply to Re: Turmeric - Any herbalists out there, posted by Larry Hoover on November 28, 2002, at 7:45:21
I was taking turmeric for about 6 months for my bad knees.
I used to take a heaped teaspoon in a glass of soy milk. The only thing is I gave up taking it because I couldn't handle the taste any longer. I would shudder with every sip and in the end I couldn't get it past my lips anymore without nearly wretching so I just gave up.
I never considered taking it with tomato juice.Soy milk was the best masking agent I tried. Milk or water just didn't make the grade. Are there any other suggestions as to how I can take turmeric to mask it's flavour. I also had trouble getting it to dissolve properly and it always had a muddy/gritty texture that stuck in my throat.
The funny thing is that I love it in curries so go figure.
thanks
bluedog
Posted by linkadge on November 28, 2002, at 10:37:30
In reply to Sorry. Posted same thing twice. Ignore 1st message (nm), posted by bluedog on November 28, 2002, at 8:25:48
I read the turmeric was neuroprotective, and that it can protect brain cells from the
degenerative effects of brain steriods. It said
that turmeric potently protected the myalin sheaths from cortisteroid dammage. Is this true, and if so could this improve depressive states?Linkadge
Posted by IsoM on November 28, 2002, at 11:37:58
In reply to Re: Curcumin Question, posted by Larry Hoover on November 28, 2002, at 7:58:11
I looked hard for info on heat sensitivity too last night & found nothing. I will continue to check & will ask a couple of my (ex-) profs if they know. But I did find ancedotal reports that people in India who eat lots of curries or other foods containing curcumin have less older people with Alzheimer. But because there are a number of different things that can affect Alzheimer, it's not enough to go on.
Posted by IsoM on November 28, 2002, at 11:42:05
In reply to Re: Turmeric - Any herbalists out there, posted by bluedog on November 28, 2002, at 8:14:07
Bluedog, why not sprinkle a spoonful on some curry (if you make your own) & stir it in when you dish it out on your plate. It's what I'm going to try now. I enjoy its taste but only with other foods so will start eating lots of yellow food & see how it works.
--but NO yellow snow-- ^_*
No fear of that for me, we've had no snow yet & won't likely have any for a long time.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 28, 2002, at 11:45:44
In reply to Re: Curcumin Question » Larry Hoover, posted by IsoM on November 28, 2002, at 11:37:58
> I looked hard for info on heat sensitivity too last night & found nothing. I will continue to check & will ask a couple of my (ex-) profs if they know. But I did find ancedotal reports that people in India who eat lots of curries or other foods containing curcumin have less older people with Alzheimer. But because there are a number of different things that can affect Alzheimer, it's not enough to go on.
It's just that kind of information, though, that lends circumstantial support to the inactivation of the COX effect by cooking; Alzheimer's is strongly influenced by antioxidant status, and virtually all compounds arising from metabolism of curcumin are antioxidants. It seems that only the parent compound is COX inhibitory (my assumption).
Lar
Posted by IsoM on November 28, 2002, at 13:50:05
In reply to Re: Curcumin Question, posted by Larry Hoover on November 28, 2002, at 11:45:44
I have to run & get ready for work but my shoulder joints are bothering me a lot more now that winter's come. I'll let you know how a one-shot dose of tumeric works later. I didn't bother taking a Vioxx today but did stir a spoonful of tumeric into some V-8 juice. Seeing I have a dull headache too (another winter hazard for me), perhaps it'll help. Placebo effect works poorly on me (even if I do expect something to help) so if I see any benefit in my shoulder or headache, I'll be pleasantly surprised. Will let you know later, but one shot is hardly a fair trial.
Posted by bluedog on November 28, 2002, at 21:09:49
In reply to Re: Turmeric - suggestions for use » bluedog, posted by IsoM on November 28, 2002, at 11:42:05
Thanks for your suggestions Iso. I find this thread absolutely fascinating and particularly relevant to my situation because of my dodgy knees. I knew that turmeric had anti-inflammatory properties but I also did not know that it acted as a cox-2 inhibitor. Thanks for that info Larry. I have some more questions on turmeric
1.What would be the ideal dose be for an anti-inflammatory effect? One teaspoon, 2 teaspoons, a tablespoon? Is more better?
2. Is it better to take multiple smaller doses spread out over the day or is it sufficient to take one large dose? or is it more a case of trial and error to see what works best for each individual?
3. Is it possible for turmeric to have a depressant effect? I have read scattered reports that the cox-2 inhibitors like Celebrex can have quite a powerful depressant effect for some individuals.
4. Question for IsoM- How do you find Vioxx? I tried Celebrex for a while and I have to say it didn't work as well for me as ibuprofen. Whats more, it made me feel kind of "yuk". Unfortunately I am very frightened of internal bleeding that ibuprofen can induce so tend to suffer with my knees rather than take the risk.
Looks like I'll just have to "take my medicine" with the turmeric. Don't they say that it's not a real medicine unless it tastes bad?5. On the subject of internal bleeding, can too much turmeric produce this as a possible side effect? In other words does it have any cox-1 inhibitory properties?
thanks everyone
bluedogBy the way Iso, where I live snow never falls. The average winter daytime temperature is probably around 16-18 degrees (Centigrade) and 8-10 degrees (Centigrade again) is considered as "freezing" by us locals. Sometimes the temperature drops to -1 or 0 degrees (Centigrade) but NEVER during the day!
Posted by tancu on November 28, 2002, at 21:18:41
In reply to Re: Turmeric - Any herbalists out there, posted by bluedog on November 28, 2002, at 8:14:07
> I was taking turmeric for about 6 months for my bad knees.
>
> I used to take a heaped teaspoon in a glass of soy milk. The only thing is I gave up taking it because I couldn't handle the taste any longer. I would shudder with every sip and in the end I couldn't get it past my lips anymore without nearly wretching so I just gave up.
>
> I never considered taking it with tomato juice.Soy milk was the best masking agent...
>
> thanks
> bluedog
hi bluedog...it is available in pill form...or you could just eat lots of mustard.
Posted by IsoM on November 29, 2002, at 0:27:29
In reply to Re: Turmeric - suggestions for use, posted by bluedog on November 28, 2002, at 21:09:49
I can't answer the other questions about tumeric but will do some checking on my own as I'm curious too. As for Vioxx, it works okay, nothing great but then ibuprofen does little for me. I tried Mobic (meloxicam) first but that didn't work. Voltaren worked very well but gave me terrible stomach aches, so it's Vioxx or nothing. My pain comes from a very old injury I had as a child in both shoulders. I have torn & scarred rotator cuff, muscles and/or tendons. My muscles & joints have learned to compensate over the decades so at this point in time, there's little I can do to change them. It must be a weakness in our family as 2 sons already have problems with them & my Mom has very bad shoulders. If tumeric will help with the pain, I'd much rather use that.
No snow, hey? Well, send me your address & make an extra bed up - I'm moving there for the winter. I hope it's normally sunny there as I love rain but after a whole winter of it, deserts start sounding good. Ah, to dream of being able to garden outside all year long. Wonderful! What country are you in?
Posted by bluedog on November 29, 2002, at 2:33:49
In reply to Re: Turmeric - suggestions for use » bluedog, posted by IsoM on November 29, 2002, at 0:27:29
> I have torn & scarred rotator cuff, muscles and/or tendons. My muscles & joints have learned to compensate over the decades so at this point in time, there's little I can do to change them. ..........2 sons already have problems with them & my Mom has very bad shoulders. If tumeric will help with the pain, I'd much rather use that.
Iso
I too have had shoulder rotator cuff problems. I have nearly cured my condition with the following approach.
1. Massage Therapy - physiotherapy did nothing for me. I think physiotherapists suffer from the same compartmentalised approach to the body that the medical profession does without looking at the body as a whole. Massage therapy loosened the muscles and tendons around my shoulder joint and in my ENTIRE body. This is crucial to commence any rehab of the shoulder.
2. Take Alexander Technique lessons - I could not recommend the Alexander Technique more highly as it teaches you the proper 'Use" of your body. When you start making some progress you will be horrified how much tension you are probably holding in your body and you will be taught how to release that tension and use your body much more gracefully (even performing tasks like checking the posts on the PB board). I emphasize that the Alexander technique is NOT quackery and has been used in the performing arts since the early 20th century. However don't expect your doctor to have heard of the technique (they tend to be quite ignorant). Do some research. There is heaps of good information on the Alexander technique on the Net and at your local library.
3. Yoga has been great for me and actually helps me in putting the Alexander Technique into practice and keeps me flexible and keeps my postural muscles well toned. With shoulder problems I would look to a gentle form of yoga and definitely avoid ashtanga yoga.
4. Finally, I would recommend you obtain a copy of the following book. "The 7-minute rotator cuff solution" by Joseph Horrigan and Jerry Robinson. The book gives you programs to rehabilitate and maintain the health of your shoulder with minimal time cost. I am telling you it is the best book on the rotator cuff ever written and I have been using the programs for my own shoulder health since I commenced a weight training program a little while back and can swear by this book.
I am sure that you will see improvement using the above techniques but you will need to apply yourself (I'm sure you already know that nothing comes from nothing). Significantly, I believe that if your sons have only just started developing shoulder problems that they will benefit from the above even more than you will. At the very least I would recommend getting the book I mentioned.
>
> Ah, to dream of being able to garden outside all year long. Wonderful! What country are you in?I live in Australia. Today it is 30 degrees (centigrade) with perfect blue skies. We have a mediterranean climate in my city. Generally we will only get rain for 3-4 months of the year but we are currently suffering from an extended drought so we have had less rain this year than usual. The flip side to this sunny climate is that we have water restrictions in place and we are legally only allowed to water our gardens between dusk and dawn and even then only twice per week.
Posted by bluedog on November 29, 2002, at 5:34:31
In reply to Re: Turmeric - Any herbalists out there, posted by tancu on November 28, 2002, at 21:18:41
> hi bluedog...it is available in pill form...or you could just eat lots of mustard.
>
>Thanks for the tips tancu. I learn something new everyday!!! I didn't realise that mustard contained turmeric.
bluedog
Posted by bluedog on November 29, 2002, at 5:50:52
In reply to Re: Turmeric - Any herbalists out there » tancu, posted by bluedog on November 29, 2002, at 5:34:31
Heres a link to an interesting article that seems to sum up the state of current research into natural cox-2 inhibitors like curcumin.
http://www.newhope.com/nutritionsciencenews/NSN_backs/Aug_00/cox2.cfm
Posted by bluedog on November 29, 2002, at 6:23:32
In reply to Re: Turmeric - suggestions for use » bluedog, posted by IsoM on November 29, 2002, at 0:27:29
Iso
Here's a link to an article from only a few days ago about concerns that Stanford researchers have about cox-2 inhibitors like VIOXX.
Apparently these drugs can interfere with the bone healing process. You really have to wonder what other processes these drugs interfere with.
see http://www.arthritissupport.com/library/showarticle.cfm/id/563
bludog
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 29, 2002, at 9:03:51
In reply to Re: Turmeric - suggestions for use, posted by bluedog on November 28, 2002, at 21:09:49
> Thanks for your suggestions Iso. I find this thread absolutely fascinating and particularly relevant to my situation because of my dodgy knees. I knew that turmeric had anti-inflammatory properties but I also did not know that it acted as a cox-2 inhibitor. Thanks for that info Larry. I have some more questions on turmeric
>
> 1.What would be the ideal dose be for an anti-inflammatory effect? One teaspoon, 2 teaspoons, a tablespoon? Is more better?When you're dealing with natural products, there is no way to know the potency of any sample, a priori. I can only suggest you experiment.
> 2. Is it better to take multiple smaller doses spread out over the day or is it sufficient to take one large dose? or is it more a case of trial and error to see what works best for each individual?
My personal experience is that one dose of turmeric lasts 16-20 hours, substantially longer, in my experience, than any NSAID I've ever used.
> 3. Is it possible for turmeric to have a depressant effect? I have read scattered reports that the cox-2 inhibitors like Celebrex can have quite a powerful depressant effect for some individuals.At the start of this thread, there was reference to turmeric having MAOI effects, though at very high doses. Again, close attention to effects of this intervention should tell you what the score is for you.
> 5. On the subject of internal bleeding, can too much turmeric produce this as a possible side effect? In other words does it have any cox-1 inhibitory properties?Turmeric is being touted as a natural remedy for gastric ulcers. It seems to have a healing effect on gastric mucosa.
> thanks everyone
> bluedog
>
> By the way Iso, where I live snow never falls. The average winter daytime temperature is probably around 16-18 degrees (Centigrade) and 8-10 degrees (Centigrade again) is considered as "freezing" by us locals. Sometimes the temperature drops to -1 or 0 degrees (Centigrade) but NEVER during the day!Jealousy induction! You bum! Two inches of snow, and still falling, as I type this.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 29, 2002, at 9:05:32
In reply to Re: Turmeric - suggestions for use » bluedog, posted by IsoM on November 29, 2002, at 0:27:29
>If tumeric will help with the pain, I'd much rather use that.
I guess your silence on turmeric speaks volumes. Perhaps it works better straight up, in water? Higher dose?
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 29, 2002, at 9:08:11
In reply to Re: Turmeric - Any herbalists out there » tancu, posted by bluedog on November 29, 2002, at 5:34:31
> > hi bluedog...it is available in pill form...or you could just eat lots of mustard.
> >
> >
>
> Thanks for the tips tancu. I learn something new everyday!!! I didn't realise that mustard contained turmeric.
>
> bluedogTancu must be in America. American mustard, sometimes called hot dog mustard, contains turmeric. It's a bright yellow, compared to traditional preparations containing just mustard seed and vinegar.
Posted by IsoM on November 29, 2002, at 11:24:09
In reply to Re: Turmeric - suggestions for your shoulder » IsoM, posted by bluedog on November 29, 2002, at 2:33:49
Bluedog, I'll check out some of the links on pain & rotator cuff injuries. Massage therapy doesn't help. I've tried a number of different therapists too as each person's method is slightly diff. As one therapist told me, some of the muscles seem "locked" in place & won't move. I've had this for +40 years so I can see why they may be permanently altered. I'm talking repeat, frequent massages but within a half-hour or less, the muscles slip back into their old patterns.
I've learned through the years to release muscle tension. I'm practically an expert at immediate muscle release. I do frequent checks throughout the day to ensure no muscles are tensing that shouldn't be. Rather than massage for me, I found over-all body activity, using msucle groups over the entire body, to be better for me - dancing to music. Activity is everything for me - inactivity is a killer. I NEED to move. Good thing I tend to be hyper.
I do certain other exercises that strengthen the muscles normally weakened by my overcompensation of other muscle groups. My teres major & minor are two I pay attention to. Heat applied to the areas is good for me too - perhaps due to muslce relaxation & increased blood flow to those areas.
On the whole, I do okay when I can choose my activities but, unfortunately, my job often requires more than I should do. I don't plan to stay in that department long & have asked for a transfer to another one that should happen in February.
I'll check out the Alexander technique & the book you recommmend too, thanks!
Seeing you live in Australia & the internet connection isn't the greatest there, this online video tutorial on anatomy to be presented Dec. 6 may not be for you, but if you're interested:
http://anatome.ncl.ac.uk/tutorials/at21c.htmlOtherwise, this tutorial on the shoulder (text & pix) is interesting, but you probably already know enough:
http://anatome.ncl.ac.uk/tutorials/shoulder/text/index.html
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