![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 9 to 33 of 33. Go back in thread:
Posted by jay on February 16, 2002, at 1:00:57
In reply to Re: Trashing Benzos. » jay, posted by Alan on February 15, 2002, at 23:55:48
Thanks again Alan! I am going to print this up, and take it to my pdoc at my next appointment. I added some other comments in last message, and I hope maybe we can get some good info to pass around. Just curious...what benzo are you on? I am on a benzo on available in Canada, called Lectopam (bromazepam). I find it great, because it hase a longer life than Ativan, but still has a good strong punch to it.I will get back with more comments on the website you posted.
Thanks again! Take care..
Jay
> >
> > Scott, thanks, and I thought I would add in some of my other thoughts also, and in particular to your situation. I don't really like giving a lot of med advice, but I can honestly say, and will put money on this, that benzos, for me in particular, have been *the only* lifesaver especially in difficult times.
> >
> > This is a great thread...I hope we can keep it up. Take good care...
> >
> > Jay
> ******************************************
>
> Jay. I had a similar experience and have been on BZD monotherapy for several years now having lost much of the last 15 or so years trying to "make" every conceiveable form of AD or combo ssri and BZD, or anticonvulsant/AD/BZD , etc, work for me. I ended up feeling like a square peg trying to be put into a round hole.
>
> Many docs feel that a patient is simply "unresponsive" or "atypical" if the patient doesn't fit their own criteria for what they perrceive as a diagnosing through the technique of "Listening to the Drug" (as so well described iny Peter Kramer's best seller, "Listening to Prozac").
>
> PLEASE read this fantastic website I came accross about PD and anxiety in general....especially medicine therapy such as ssri's and the BZD's. My doc specialising in the treatment of anxiety disorders read it and passed out copies to their entire staff as reference to well written, patient accessable information:
>
> http://bearpaw8.tripod.com/pd.html
>
> It's longish but worth every drop!!!
>
>
> Alan
Posted by jimmygold70 on February 16, 2002, at 2:13:49
In reply to Trashing Benzos, posted by Mr. Scott on February 15, 2002, at 19:38:39
The real big question about a drug is if you get ADDICTED to it. There are three elements of addiction:
1) Dependence
2) Tolerance
3) Drug-seeking behaviorTolerance (increasing the dose all the time) and drug-seeking behavior (spending time and effort getting the drug) does occur with benzos but not with Effexor. People suffering from anxiety does not have those symptoms while on either Benzos or Effexor, but others do (see Bush's daughter). Tolerance does develop in anxiety patients but it is generally limited.
The dependence on Benzos compared to Effexor is much stronger. People have much harder time stopping Benzos related to Effexor albeit both have withdrawal symptoms.
That is why Effexor is less addicting than Benzos. Period.
Jimmy
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 16, 2002, at 2:31:36
In reply to Trashing Benzos, posted by Mr. Scott on February 15, 2002, at 19:38:39
> However, The reason newer drugs aren't being trashed (except by us, the people who take them) is because they are "on Label" while benzos are "off Label". Off label=generic=no marketing dollars. On label=branded=14 years to get richer=FAT marketing budget to drive sales.
Discussion about drug companies, rather than drugs, should take place at Psycho-Social-Babble:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20020214/msgs/18395.html
Thanks,
Bob
PS: And discussion about posting policies should take place at Psycho-Babble Administration.
Posted by Alan on February 16, 2002, at 2:43:23
In reply to Elements of addiction » Mr. Scott, posted by jimmygold70 on February 16, 2002, at 2:13:49
> The dependence on Benzos compared to Effexor is much stronger. People have much harder time stopping Benzos related to Effexor albeit both have withdrawal symptoms.
>
> That is why Effexor is less addicting than Benzos. Period.
>
> Jimmy
************************************************
And this is exactly what I mean. There is no credible evidence to back this up. There is no control for those misdiagnosed, misprescribed, mis-supervised tapering BZD's fit into the equation. There is no credible evidence even that the above statement is true in the least. If you read the definition of "addiction" vs. medical dependency that I posted earlier it makes this point very clear. Personally, I see more complaints about withdrawl effects from ssri's than any benzo - especially on this bboard. It's a constant title to threads one after another here when I visit.If you read the website that I posted earlier perhaps it will help in understanding the idea of withdrawl from ANY drug including non-psychotropics, let alone PROPER, slow tapering of BZD's (assuming they should be tapered off of them in the first place). Many require long term treatment which after reviewing all of the studies for decades, the prestigious World Health Organisation - hardly a drug pushing group of CEO's from the major pharmecuticals - has deemed BZD's not only safe, but preferable and advantageous long OR short term.
There are no "periods" in blanket statements about BZD's or the concept of "addiction". That is the misnomer that drives the hesitency of patients and non-specialist doctors alike to fear prescribing BZD monotherapy on an equal footing with any ssri - giving the patient freedom of choice to determine for themselves the effecacy of either drug. Misinforming the general population of patients with the corporate line that *BZD's "addicting"/ssri's not* is taking away the patient's freedom of choice. It is "wordsmithing" and "euphemising" at the expense of the health and well being of vulnerable anxiety sufferers and their underinformed docs.
Alan
Posted by jay on February 16, 2002, at 6:48:01
In reply to Elements of addiction » Mr. Scott, posted by jimmygold70 on February 16, 2002, at 2:13:49
Sorry, I think you are wrong, period. You have shown no citations or evidence to back up your claims. As Alan pointed out, this is VERY much the same, if not WORSE, for current antidepressants. There is now a large database in Europe containing all of the withdrawl 'hells' people have had in coming off everything from Effexor to Paxil. Ask the people on here about their Effexor and Paxil withdrawl stories.
It seems you and so many have fallen prey to the garbage that big Drug companies use as propaganda. Second, there is no way you can tell me that antidepressants, especially the newer ones, touch anywhere near anxiety and GAD.
Last, but not least, it ALSO appears people build up quite a tolerance to antidepressants, the newer ones in particular, and people seem to go to the max dose possible, and then just fall to pieces. Do a search on benzos, and people tend to take *less* over time. What I don't understand is why people want this torture of horrid side effects from a.d's, with very, very little good response (again, especially the newer ones), when a bezo does a clean, good, safe, and effective job. What about how the antidepressants kill your sex drive, turns off your most basic and beautiful desire and ability to enjoy a healthy sex life? Never mind the side effects AND the costs. People being sexually shut-off by a drug, raises some MAJOR moral and ethical questions, yet people believe it because and doctors dish these new "wonderdrugs" out.
Simple: Add it all up, and newer antidepressants are often anything but. Unless someone is into self-torture, there is no reason, NIL, to avoid benzodiazepines.
/rant
Jay
> The real big question about a drug is if you get ADDICTED to it. There are three elements of addiction:
> 1) Dependence
> 2) Tolerance
> 3) Drug-seeking behavior
>
> Tolerance (increasing the dose all the time) and drug-seeking behavior (spending time and effort getting the drug) does occur with benzos but not with Effexor. People suffering from anxiety does not have those symptoms while on either Benzos or Effexor, but others do (see Bush's daughter). Tolerance does develop in anxiety patients but it is generally limited.
>
> The dependence on Benzos compared to Effexor is much stronger. People have much harder time stopping Benzos related to Effexor albeit both have withdrawal symptoms.
>
> That is why Effexor is less addicting than Benzos. Period.
>
> Jimmy
Posted by Bob on February 16, 2002, at 12:04:39
In reply to Re: Elements of addiction » jimmygold70, posted by jay on February 16, 2002, at 6:48:01
What about how the antidepressants kill your sex drive, turns off your most basic and beautiful desire and ability to enjoy a healthy sex life? Never mind the side effects AND the costs. People being sexually shut-off by a drug, raises some MAJOR moral and ethical questions, yet people believe it because and doctors dish these new "wonderdrugs" out.
==================================================Benzodiazepines are fine for pure anxiety disorders, but if a person has significant depression along with that, benzos don't have antidepressant effects as far as I know.
Posted by Alan on February 16, 2002, at 13:12:15
In reply to Re: Elements of addiction » jay, posted by Bob on February 16, 2002, at 12:04:39
> What about how the antidepressants kill your sex drive, turns off your most basic and beautiful desire and ability to enjoy a healthy sex life? Never mind the side effects AND the costs. People being sexually shut-off by a drug, raises some MAJOR moral and ethical questions, yet people believe it because and doctors dish these new "wonderdrugs" out.
> ==================================================
>
> Benzodiazepines are fine for pure anxiety disorders, but if a person has significant depression along with that, benzos don't have antidepressant effects as far as I know.
*******************************************
Actually, there have been several studies that show xanax hasa mild antidepressant effect.But more importantly I think is whether anxiety is causing the depression or the other way around. This sounds simplistic and is in a way but many find that the chronic symptoms of anxiety depress them. When the anx. is releived, the depression is alleviated soon afterwards.
This is one of the problems of treating with ssri's. One is less likely be able to diagnose by "listening to the drug" (or one's reaction to it) if it is designed to treat both at once. That's why those that have chronic, more pronounced symptoms of anxiety usually end up on an equal amount of BZD's to take away the remaining anxiety or panic that ssri's don't cover but unfortunately, with all of the side effects that go with the ssri too.
BZD monotherapy for those with mixed anx/depress. often works wonders. I personally came to the conclusion that after years of combos that included both types of drugs to just tell my doc, "hey - you'd be depressed too if you were under the thumb of so much constant anxiety!".
Being the pragmatist that he was thankfully, we went with BZD monotherapy for a month and the depression (which was quite sever at times) simply vanished.
Alan
Posted by Mr. Scott on February 16, 2002, at 14:34:07
In reply to Re: Trashing Benzos - Re: addiction., posted by Alan on February 15, 2002, at 23:41:37
Posted by Mr. Scott on February 16, 2002, at 14:37:06
In reply to Elements of addiction » Mr. Scott, posted by jimmygold70 on February 16, 2002, at 2:13:49
Jimmy I see your points, but my dependence on effexor seems much harder to break then was my dependence on Benzos which I had for many years (many good years). I don't take them now, and sure it was unpleasant to withdraw, but Effexor...If I skip a day or two I want to kill myself!!
Thats pretty Bad in my opinion.
Posted by Bob on February 16, 2002, at 15:16:48
In reply to Re: Elements of addiction » jimmygold70, posted by Mr. Scott on February 16, 2002, at 14:37:06
> Jimmy I see your points, but my dependence on effexor seems much harder to break then was my dependence on Benzos which I had for many years (many good years). I don't take them now, and sure it was unpleasant to withdraw, but Effexor...If I skip a day or two I want to kill myself!!
>
> Thats pretty Bad in my opinion.==================================================
I think that everybody's different and the ability to wean one's self off of either class, benzos or ADs, depends on the individuals underlying biology and symptoms. I know people who are able to come on and off antidepressants with just minor discomfort (if any at all), and I know myself: it's not a pretty picture. It has come to the point with me where any change is dosage of any med I take affects me adversely. The only question left for me is to what degree of severity.
Posted by christophrejmc on February 16, 2002, at 16:18:49
In reply to Re: Elements of addiction » jimmygold70, posted by Mr. Scott on February 16, 2002, at 14:37:06
Can anyone explain to me why people abuse benzodiazepines? The only reason I've ever heard was to "space out." If that's the main reason, why wouldn't there be more cases of neuroleptic abuse?
Is it just that benzos work too well? Many drug abusers are simply self-medicating and anxiety is one of most common psychiatric disorders.
Some antidepressants have suffered the same fate -- amineptine and nomifensine were removed from the U.S. market for what a lot of people think to be because of abuse potential (i.e. they worked too well, too fast). (This may be one of the reasons why no-one is interested in developing any more substantially dopaminergic ADs.) Also, as a result of several reports of Parnate abuse, some parts of the world (at least Italy and perhaps Germany) combine tranylcypromine with a phenothiazine neuroleptic.
Few opioid analgesics are available without the addition of another drug (usually one that is dangerous in large amounts (perhaps in any amount)) to thwart abuse. If this trend continues, will we see the release of Xanaxcet?I'll save my rant about the anti-benzo groups for a later time, but I think we should start an anti-benzo-prohibition ("pro-benzo" might give people the wrong idea) group -- I don't deny that people have had real problems with benzos (some even truly addicted) but there's no reason to throw the baby...
-Christophre
Posted by Alan on February 16, 2002, at 18:17:33
In reply to Re: Elements of addiction, posted by christophrejmc on February 16, 2002, at 16:18:49
Posted by skills on February 20, 2002, at 15:03:10
In reply to Trashing Benzos, posted by Mr. Scott on February 15, 2002, at 19:38:39
I do agree that Benzo's are useful in some cases but overtime tolerance builds up and a succesful dosage may need to be increased. Withdrawal from acute withdrawal from chronic benzo use is extremely unpleasant. Apart from the muscle cramps, minor visual illusions, shaking, sickness, depression, rebound insomnia ( which can last for months ( incurable by traditional benzo and antipyscotic hypnotic drugs, except for the 130 year old dangerous choral hydrate) and confusion, pyschosis inducing both auditory and visual hallucinations is unplesant and deppressing. Having experienced both an opiod and benzodiazepine withdrawal the latter effected me far worse in acute physical symptoms and these lasted for much long than those associated with opiod dextox. These addictions were not formed through abuse, rather through prescribed medication. The extreme reality of a benzo detox is what the doctors want to avoid as well as the other physiological impairments resulting from benzo's high addicton potential. Belive me if a benzo addict could not get their prescription or required dosage in the case of street users, drug seeking behaviour becomes apparant. Addmitedly new benzo's including Ouzepam have lower addicton potential are extremly useful in the treatment of anxiety.
Posted by OldSchool on February 20, 2002, at 18:27:24
In reply to Trashing Benzos, posted by Mr. Scott on February 15, 2002, at 19:38:39
I dont worry about this stuff much. I just take the drugs and am glad I have them. I do get irritated when I read about drug companies developing more "me too" serotonin drugs however. There are already enough SSRI type drugs on the market. As far as benzos go, I just get an rx for them and take them...which is not very often BTW. Whether they are generic, the real deal "label" drug or whatever doesnt really concern me.
Posted by Alan on February 20, 2002, at 22:29:12
In reply to Re: Trashing Benzos, posted by skills on February 20, 2002, at 15:03:10
> I do agree that Benzo's are useful in some cases but overtime tolerance builds up and a succesful dosage may need to be increased. Withdrawal from acute withdrawal from chronic benzo use is extremely unpleasant. Apart from the muscle cramps, minor visual illusions, shaking, sickness, depression, rebound insomnia ( which can last for months ( incurable by traditional benzo and antipyscotic hypnotic drugs, except for the 130 year old dangerous choral hydrate) and confusion, pyschosis inducing both auditory and visual hallucinations is unplesant and deppressing. Having experienced both an opiod and benzodiazepine withdrawal the latter effected me far worse in acute physical symptoms and these lasted for much long than those associated with opiod dextox. These addictions were not formed through abuse, rather through prescribed medication. The extreme reality of a benzo detox is what the doctors want to avoid as well as the other physiological impairments resulting from benzo's high addicton potential. Belive me if a benzo addict could not get their prescription or required dosage in the case of street users, drug seeking behaviour becomes apparant. Addmitedly new benzo's including Ouzepam have lower addicton potential are extremly useful in the treatment of anxiety.
*************************************************
Most of this may be your own unusual, personal experience, but the vast majority of properly diagnosed, managed, and followed up anxiety disorders respond to BZD's without all of the phenomenon you suggest - especially "high addiction potential". This is statistically true speaking for the majority of the general population, not just for some as you state.You are obviously one of those that fit into a different catagory. But fitting into a different catagory can apply to ANY drug. It's the exclusive use of BZD's to compare with narcotics and using loaded terms like "detox" that give away bias in the direction from which is spoken here. Using the term "chronic use" implies that the drug is at fault but the reality is that anxiety is the chronic part of the equation. So keeping symptoms at bay does not constitute "chronic use".
I've posted several links here about this if you read this thread. Here is another that addresses the "addiction" vs "medical dependence" distinction:
http://panicdisorder.about.com/library/weekly/aa031997.htm
If the perpetual stigmitisation of this drug were not so insisted on by a strident minority, patients and some misinformed docs would not have choices taken from them to decide for themselves. Rather, vulnerable anxiety sufferers are being discouraged to even venture a try. Truly unfortunate.
Alan
Posted by gilbert on February 21, 2002, at 17:22:15
In reply to Re: Trashing Benzos, posted by Alan on February 20, 2002, at 22:29:12
I have always been pro benzo use but have had the most terrible thing happen this past winter. My xanax after 3 years of use became completely ineffective. My maintenance dose was 2mg per day and when I upped the dose to 4mg began to get paradoxical symptomolgy. I am now tapering off xanax after 3 years which is no picnic. I am going slow but have had most of my panic symptoms return worse than before. Each of us is different and I pray you guys and gals don't have this happen but suddenly I would need elephant size doses of xanax or klonopin to stay panic free. I am currently on low dose prozac while I taper and it is helping somewhat. I have no idea what I will do or how I will be functional again without the benzos but they simply stopped working. I am a sober alcoholic....maybe I am just prone to develope tolerance to downer type drugs. I guess I will have to wait for pagloclone to come out or just endure through a dose of antidepressants....who knows now thAT i AM FORCED TO ACTUALLY STAY ON PROZAC MAYBE IT WILL work in the long run.
Best of luck to all you lucky benzo users....
Gil
Posted by Alan on February 23, 2002, at 15:36:05
In reply to Re: Trashing Benzos, posted by gilbert on February 21, 2002, at 17:22:15
> I have always been pro benzo use but have had the most terrible thing happen this past winter. My xanax after 3 years of use became completely ineffective. My maintenance dose was 2mg per day and when I upped the dose to 4mg began to get paradoxical symptomolgy. I am now tapering off xanax after 3 years which is no picnic. I am going slow but have had most of my panic symptoms return worse than before. Each of us is different and I pray you guys and gals don't have this happen but suddenly I would need elephant size doses of xanax or klonopin to stay panic free. I am currently on low dose prozac while I taper and it is helping somewhat. I have no idea what I will do or how I will be functional again without the benzos but they simply stopped working. I am a sober alcoholic....maybe I am just prone to develope tolerance to downer type drugs. I guess I will have to wait for pagloclone to come out or just endure through a dose of antidepressants....who knows now thAT i AM FORCED TO ACTUALLY STAY ON PROZAC MAYBE IT WILL work in the long run.
>
> Best of luck to all you lucky benzo users....
>
> Gil
************************************************
Sorry that you are having trouble Gil. Perhaps some of past history w/alchohol has something to do with it - I don't know. There is also a very small population that have a genetic "predisposition" to becoming addicted that figures into the equation...Read:
http://panicdisorder.about.com/library/weekly/aa031997.htm
AND:
http://bearpaw8.tripod.com/pd.html
They will help answer alot of the questions you and others may have by the info in your post.
Alan
Posted by Elizabeth on February 23, 2002, at 17:42:29
In reply to Re: Trashing Benzos » gilbert, posted by Alan on February 23, 2002, at 15:36:05
> There is also a very small population that have a genetic "predisposition" to becoming addicted that figures into the equation...
I'd like to discuss this further. What is this predisposition? How do you know if you have it? How do we know that it exists at all? Is if possible for a person who is genetically predisposed to use potentially addictive drugs without becoming addicted? What other factors contribute to addiction, besides genes? Are there predispositions to become addicted to specific drugs (or classes of drugs)?
I have some ideas, but I'd like to hear what other people have to say.
BTW: good links; thanks for posting them! I encourage people to read them.
-elizabeth
Posted by Alan on February 24, 2002, at 22:23:45
In reply to Re: causes of addiction » Alan, posted by Elizabeth on February 23, 2002, at 17:42:29
> > There is also a very small population that have a genetic "predisposition" to becoming addicted that figures into the equation...
>
> I'd like to discuss this further. What is this predisposition? How do you know if you have it? How do we know that it exists at all? Is if possible for a person who is genetically predisposed to use potentially addictive drugs without becoming addicted? What other factors contribute to addiction, besides genes? Are there predispositions to become addicted to specific drugs (or classes of drugs)?
>
> I have some ideas, but I'd like to hear what other people have to say.
>
> BTW: good links; thanks for posting them! I encourage people to read them.
>
> -elizabeth
**************************************************
Here are some facts on biological influences (using addiction to alcohol)
* Adopted individuals are more susceptible to alcoholism if one or both of their biological parents has a history of alcoholism.*Having an identical twin with alcoholism puts a male at especially increased risk for alcohol problems.
*Compared with other children, children whose parents abuse alcohol have a higher tolerance for multiple alcoholic drinks taken over an hour or two. They also show a smaller evoked brain response to certain types of sensory stimulation.
*Researchers have bred rats and mice that prefer alcoholic drinks to water. One such strain has reduced levels of a brain chemical called NPY; mice engineered to overproduce NPY are very sensitive to alcohol's sedating effect and drink little.
*Molecular geneticists have identified a gene on chromosome 11 that is more common among people with alcoholism, especially severe cases.
Such findings have fueled the search for a better understanding of the genetic and bio-chemical influences on adiction. THe most extensive study yet- a $25 million dollar, 5 year analysis of 600 alcoholics and their relatives- is underway. If biological markers for being prone to addiction can be found, then perhaps young people at risk for specific addiction can be identified and counseled.
Even so, there are still always psychological and cultural (social) influences that will play a part in abuse of substances.
Posted by Alan on February 24, 2002, at 22:25:57
In reply to Re: causes of addiction » Alan, posted by Elizabeth on February 23, 2002, at 17:42:29
elizabeth -
Here are some interesting links about this issue:
http://www.msnbc.com/news/205650.asp
http://www.peele.net/lib/moa3.html
Alan
Posted by Elizabeth on February 27, 2002, at 0:43:04
In reply to Re: causes of addiction » Elizabeth, posted by Alan on February 24, 2002, at 22:23:45
Hi Alan.
I'm familiar with most of the major genetic findings. That wasn't what I meant.
I'm interested in the phenotype: how does the predisposition express itself in persons who do not become alcoholics? Is there a way for us to identify the predisposition with some certainty *before* the person becomes an alcoholic? (that would be damned useful)
We haven't figured out the genetics of it yet (and it's going to be very complicated so don't expect anybody to find out soon). That's why I'm interested in looking at it on this level. I want to come up with some method for predicting who is at risk.
I think that it's some sort of temperament or temperamental traits that are inherited and that predispose a person to alcoholism. So what I'm wondering is: what is that temperament?
We don't yet know enough about the genetics to be able to do a gene test to find out who's at risk, who is predisposed to become an alcoholic. So I'd like to know whether we could get an idea of whether someone is predisposed based on temperament and other characteristics. [Note that an "at risk" person may not have *any* alcoholic family members.]
I'm also interested in whether there's a specific predisposition for alcohol (or other drugs), or whether it's a general tendency to become addicted ("addictive personality").
BTW, regarding rats: you may be interested to know that some folks at UMass have bred rats who prefer morphine, rats who are indifferent to it, and rats who don't like it. (It took years, which shows some serious commitment.) I love this stuff (animal experimentation, not morphine).
-elizabeth
**************************************************
> Here are some facts on biological influences (using addiction to alcohol)
> * Adopted individuals are more susceptible to alcoholism if one or both of their biological parents has a history of alcoholism.
>
> *Having an identical twin with alcoholism puts a male at especially increased risk for alcohol problems.
>
> *Compared with other children, children whose parents abuse alcohol have a higher tolerance for multiple alcoholic drinks taken over an hour or two. They also show a smaller evoked brain response to certain types of sensory stimulation.
>
> *Researchers have bred rats and mice that prefer alcoholic drinks to water. One such strain has reduced levels of a brain chemical called NPY; mice engineered to overproduce NPY are very sensitive to alcohol's sedating effect and drink little.
>
> *Molecular geneticists have identified a gene on chromosome 11 that is more common among people with alcoholism, especially severe cases.
>
> Such findings have fueled the search for a better understanding of the genetic and bio-chemical influences on adiction. THe most extensive study yet- a $25 million dollar, 5 year analysis of 600 alcoholics and their relatives- is underway. If biological markers for being prone to addiction can be found, then perhaps young people at risk for specific addiction can be identified and counseled.
>
> Even so, there are still always psychological and cultural (social) influences that will play a part in abuse of substances.
Posted by Alan on February 27, 2002, at 9:04:41
In reply to Re: causes of addiction » Alan, posted by Elizabeth on February 27, 2002, at 0:43:04
> I'm interested in the phenotype: how does the predisposition express itself in persons who do not become alcoholics? Is there a way for us to identify the predisposition with some certainty *before* the person becomes an alcoholic? (that would be damned useful)
>
> We haven't figured out the genetics of it yet (and it's going to be very complicated so don't expect anybody to find out soon). That's why I'm interested in looking at it on this level. I want to come up with some method for predicting who is at risk.
>
> I think that it's some sort of temperament or temperamental traits that are inherited and that predispose a person to alcoholism. So what I'm wondering is: what is that temperament?
>
> We don't yet know enough about the genetics to be able to do a gene test to find out who's at risk, who is predisposed to become an alcoholic. So I'd like to know whether we could get an idea of whether someone is predisposed based on temperament and other characteristics. [Note that an "at risk" person may not have *any* alcoholic family members.]
>
> I'm also interested in whether there's a specific predisposition for alcohol (or other drugs), or whether it's a general tendency to become addicted ("addictive personality").
>
> BTW, regarding rats: you may be interested to know that some folks at UMass have bred rats who prefer morphine, rats who are indifferent to it, and rats who don't like it. (It took years, which shows some serious commitment.) I love this stuff (animal experimentation, not morphine).
>
> -elizabeth
>
>
******************************************
Speaking of personality traits, University of Chicago's psychologist Heinz Kohut wrote about narcissism and the self in his ground breaking field of Psychoanalytic Self Psychology in two books "the Analysis of the Self" and later in "the Restoration of the Self". All part of Psych 101 classes everywhere now.But is there some kind of conclusive research delving into what tends to motivate that person (chemically or socially - nature/nuture) to act on those narcissitic urges - to cross the line so to speak?....That is central to their personality? I don't know.
Perhaps this is a starting point. Is this more in the direction of what you're talking about? Or perhaps do you think the theory of narcissistic personality to broad an angle from which to start?
BTW, the UMASS rats seem to almost be shouting some answers to us. Maybe in our lifetime, I don't know.
Alan
Posted by Elizabeth on February 28, 2002, at 16:10:59
In reply to Re: causes of addiction » Elizabeth, posted by Alan on February 27, 2002, at 9:04:41
> Perhaps this is a starting point. Is this more in the direction of what you're talking about? Or perhaps do you think the theory of narcissistic personality to broad an angle from which to start?
Psychoanalytic theory was *not* what I had in mind <g>. What I'm curious about is what traits ("personality" or "temperament" or whatever you want to call them) make some people apparently unable to use drugs in moderation. I'm not sure if that's what you're thinking of or not. (I took intro psych, but we didn't study Kohut's "self psychology.")
> BTW, the UMASS rats seem to almost be shouting some answers to us. Maybe in our lifetime, I don't know.
I wonder what's going on in their little tiny rat brains.
-elizabeth
Posted by Geezer on March 2, 2002, at 13:17:49
In reply to Re: causes of addiction » Alan, posted by Elizabeth on February 28, 2002, at 16:10:59
> > Perhaps this is a starting point. Is this more in the direction of what you're talking about? Or perhaps do you think the theory of narcissistic personality to broad an angle from which to start?
>
> Psychoanalytic theory was *not* what I had in mind <g>. What I'm curious about is what traits ("personality" or "temperament" or whatever you want to call them) make some people apparently unable to use drugs in moderation. I'm not sure if that's what you're thinking of or not. (I took intro psych, but we didn't study Kohut's "self psychology.")
>
> > BTW, the UMASS rats seem to almost be shouting some answers to us. Maybe in our lifetime, I don't know.
>
> I wonder what's going on in their little tiny rat brains.
>
> -elizabethMy God what a thread!! You two have "smarts" and "grit" ( hope you will accept that kindly)-my respect. I thought only us old-timers had to "shake it out". My only point of reference is an old fashioned psyc. degree from the University of Buffalo in the 1960s, a lifetime of mistakes, goodly amount of Dex/Valium abuse, and undx'ed Bipolar II until last year.
May I offer an opinion on "temperament" or "personality" and drug use/misuse. I don't think it matters, that is to say, I don't think they serve as predictors and I don't think any kind of talk therapy will change the drug use/misuse. IMHO the only thing that matters in treating Major Mood Disorders is psychopharm. - I wouldn't give you 2 empty beer cans for talk therapy of any kind. Not looking to start a fire!
I am also collecting medical records as stated in the thread (meany years worth) but not for law suite purposes - the damage is done and money won't change that. I wan't to publish (all narrative no names).
Geezer
Posted by Gundy on December 15, 2002, at 10:01:53
In reply to Re: Elements of addiction » Bob, posted by Alan on February 16, 2002, at 13:12:15
There are drugs that can completely negate the sexual side effects of ssris. None of them are approved in the US because they are sexual stimulants and the puritans running the fda think they can be abused. The best one is amineptine, and it's even been known to cause spontaneous orgasms. SSRI's don't have to cause sexual problems, but apparently the fda would prefer it that way.
This is the end of the thread.
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