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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by geno on February 23, 2002, at 19:22:34
Ok this is bugging me. I have this book on psyc drugs. Its says .05mg of xanax is equilelant to .25mg of klonopin. Some say that its equal, 05mg xanax=05mg klon, some say .05mg xanax=1mg of klonopin. In my experience, id say there equal, but the effects of xanax are much quicker, less sedation, bit more intense. Klonopin are relaxing, and antyloxic.
any expertise in such.
I also read that klonopin is used to wean off xanax. I was doing the opposite. I was on 1mg of klonopin for 1 month. i ran out, and took xanax, and still felt some physcial withdrawls, yet no anxiety
geno
Posted by Gracie2 on February 24, 2002, at 0:09:16
In reply to xanax vs klonopin, posted by geno on February 23, 2002, at 19:22:34
As I understand it, some people develop a tolerance to Xanax while depending on it's tranqualizing effect to get them through the day, which puts it in the category of an addictive drug. Any drug that you come to rely on for it's mood-altering effects can be considered addictive, and this happens to many people. Any steps you take to secure Xanax beyond the prescribed amount can put you into the unpleasant catagory of being labeled as a patient with "drug-seeking behavior", (or maybe prison), which alerts both your doctor and pharmacist that you are not responsible with your medication.
Klonopin apparently has less abuse potential and you may use this drug to wean yourself from Xanax.
The idea is that Xanax should be prescribed as a measure to help you deal with a temporary, painful part of your life, as pain-killers are prescribed to help you through physical or emotional problems. It's a temporary fix, not a life-long solution. The only acception are treating patients with severe mental diseases
and terminal patients suffering from physical pain. Otherwise, your physician is responsible for precribing and weaning you from medication before you form an addiction and cannot function without your medication. The doctors creed is: first, do not harm.
An interesting note here is that Xanax, in my experience, was unimpressive. No high, no buzz. It just made me tired.
Anyway, Klonapin is definately a step up from Xanax, and prehaps will be able to wean you from Xanax altogether. Do not everything at once - take pride in those baby steps. At the same time, watch your mental acuity return - a great goal in itself.
Best of luck - Gracie
Posted by Alan on February 24, 2002, at 1:57:44
In reply to Re: xanax vs klonopin, posted by Gracie2 on February 24, 2002, at 0:09:16
>
> As I understand it, some people develop a tolerance to Xanax while depending on it's tranqualizing effect to get them through the day, which puts it in the category of an addictive drug. Any drug that you come to rely on for it's mood-altering effects can be considered addictive, and this happens to many people. Any steps you take to secure Xanax beyond the prescribed amount can put you into the unpleasant catagory of being labeled as a patient with "drug-seeking behavior", (or maybe prison), which alerts both your doctor and pharmacist that you are not responsible with your medication.
>
> Klonopin apparently has less abuse potential and you may use this drug to wean yourself from Xanax.
> The idea is that Xanax should be prescribed as a measure to help you deal with a temporary, painful part of your life, as pain-killers are prescribed to help you through physical or emotional problems. It's a temporary fix, not a life-long solution. The only acception are treating patients with severe mental diseases
> and terminal patients suffering from physical pain. Otherwise, your physician is responsible for precribing and weaning you from medication before you form an addiction and cannot function without your medication. The doctors creed is: first, do not harm.
> An interesting note here is that Xanax, in my experience, was unimpressive. No high, no buzz. It just made me tired.
> Anyway, Klonapin is definately a step up from Xanax, and prehaps will be able to wean you from Xanax altogether. Do not everything at once - take pride in those baby steps. At the same time, watch your mental acuity return - a great goal in itself.
> Best of luck - Gracie
*********************************************
Read:http://panicdisorder.about.com/library/weekly/aa031997.htm
AND
http://bearpaw8.tripod.com/pd.html
(particularly scroll to BZD's vs. the AD's and ssri's)These two links I hope clarify a few things about the BZD's which have been misunderstood for such a long time that they are now experiencing a "rebirth" some may say - especially in the hands of specialists that know and understand these very effective anxiolytics. With all of the shouting going on about the effecacy of ssri's and AD's to stop chronic or even non-chronic anxiety disorders, the leading specialists are quitely going about their business using the BZD's as a first line of defense against anxiety - monotherapy in the form of either long OR short term treatment.
Happy reading!
Alan
Posted by Frankie on February 28, 2002, at 1:16:49
In reply to Re: xanax vs klonopin, posted by Gracie2 on February 24, 2002, at 0:09:16
>
> As I understand it, some people develop a tolerance to Xanax while depending on it's tranqualizing effect to get them through the day, which puts it in the category of an addictive drug. Any drug that you come to rely on for it's mood-altering effects can be considered addictive, and this happens to many people. Any steps you take to secure Xanax beyond the prescribed amount can put you into the unpleasant catagory of being labeled as a patient with "drug-seeking behavior", (or maybe prison), which alerts both your doctor and pharmacist that you are not responsible with your medication.
>
> Klonopin apparently has less abuse potential and you may use this drug to wean yourself from Xanax.
> The idea is that Xanax should be prescribed as a measure to help you deal with a temporary, painful part of your life, as pain-killers are prescribed to help you through physical or emotional problems. It's a temporary fix, not a life-long solution. The only acception are treating patients with severe mental diseases
> and terminal patients suffering from physical pain. Otherwise, your physician is responsible for precribing and weaning you from medication before you form an addiction and cannot function without your medication. The doctors creed is: first, do not harm.
> An interesting note here is that Xanax, in my experience, was unimpressive. No high, no buzz. It just made me tired.
> Anyway, Klonapin is definately a step up from Xanax, and prehaps will be able to wean you from Xanax altogether. Do not everything at once - take pride in those baby steps. At the same time, watch your mental acuity return - a great goal in itself.
> Best of luck - GracieGracie,
Everything you said is very accurate, except the fact that Xanax is not good for long-term use, but Klonopin is. Actually, in this day and age, neither one is considered a good drug for long-term. And, both are addicting. Depending on the person. They are in the same drug class, and both act on the GABA system in the same way. Klonopin is only slightly less addicting because it has a longer half-life. But, not by much. In either case, they both work, and can both be taken for a long period of time with no problems at all, and very few side effects. However, it is not advised that they are taken alone for anxiety because of the body's eventual tolerance to them over time. Klonopin is a little better from what I hear, but as far as getting off of Xanax, Neurontin or Tegretol is the reccommended solution. Not Klonopin.
Frankie.
Posted by Alan on February 28, 2002, at 7:49:59
In reply to Re: xanax vs klonopin, posted by Frankie on February 28, 2002, at 1:16:49
> >
> > As I understand it, some people develop a tolerance to Xanax while depending on it's tranqualizing effect to get them through the day, which puts it in the category of an addictive drug. Any drug that you come to rely on for it's mood-altering effects can be considered addictive, and this happens to many people. Any steps you take to secure Xanax beyond the prescribed amount can put you into the unpleasant catagory of being labeled as a patient with "drug-seeking behavior", (or maybe prison), which alerts both your doctor and pharmacist that you are not responsible with your medication.
> >
> > Klonopin apparently has less abuse potential and you may use this drug to wean yourself from Xanax.
> > The idea is that Xanax should be prescribed as a measure to help you deal with a temporary, painful part of your life, as pain-killers are prescribed to help you through physical or emotional problems. It's a temporary fix, not a life-long solution. The only acception are treating patients with severe mental diseases
> > and terminal patients suffering from physical pain. Otherwise, your physician is responsible for precribing and weaning you from medication before you form an addiction and cannot function without your medication. The doctors creed is: first, do not harm.
> > An interesting note here is that Xanax, in my experience, was unimpressive. No high, no buzz. It just made me tired.
> > Anyway, Klonapin is definately a step up from Xanax, and prehaps will be able to wean you from Xanax altogether. Do not everything at once - take pride in those baby steps. At the same time, watch your mental acuity return - a great goal in itself.
> > Best of luck - Gracie
>
>
>
> Gracie,
>
> Everything you said is very accurate, except the fact that Xanax is not good for long-term use, but Klonopin is. Actually, in this day and age, neither one is considered a good drug for long-term. And, both are addicting. Depending on the person. They are in the same drug class, and both act on the GABA system in the same way. Klonopin is only slightly less addicting because it has a longer half-life. But, not by much. In either case, they both work, and can both be taken for a long period of time with no problems at all, and very few side effects. However, it is not advised that they are taken alone for anxiety because of the body's eventual tolerance to them over time. Klonopin is a little better from what I hear, but as far as getting off of Xanax, Neurontin or Tegretol is the reccommended solution. Not Klonopin.
>
> Frankie.
************************************************Please read the two links that I've posted already in this thread. The evidence is there for one to read if they care to.
There is such profound misunderstanding of these drugs that it's really hard to predict if the antiquated misinformation about them will be untangled any time soon. It will undoubetdly be a slow process.
Besides the information in the two articles that I've linked, half-life refers to the amount of time a drug stays in the system, not to the inherent "addictive" quality of any of their compounds. There is NO credible scientific research that shows that this is biologically accurate. Unfortunately, this is one of the myths that have been repeated over and over so much that many begin to believe it. Many will be unnecessarily hesitant to continue or to consider taking these extremely safe medications if these myths are not dispelled.
You stated:
"In either case, they both work, and can both be taken for a long period of time with no problems at all, and very few side effects. However, it is not advised that they are taken alone for anxiety because of the body's eventual tolerance to them over time."Advised by whom? How is taking a BZD with another compound safer long term in regards to tolerance as opposed to taking it alone? If you have evidence to support this, please post it. Otherwise it is simply urban legend. The fact is that those with legitimately diagnosed and properly managed chronic anxiety disorders maintain their dosages for many years with many actually decreasing their dosage as they get their system out of a viscious state of "hyperarousal" that has been conditioned into their body by the untreated anxiety state for many years.
I am not trying to be accusatory, only that with posting this information as fact carries with it a resonsibility since it is contradicted by decades of scientific research and clinical experience from those specialists that treat anxiety disorders. Incorect information takes away a patients and doctors options and therefore choice to be able to successfully treat their disorder or disease.
Alan
Posted by Thrud on February 28, 2002, at 17:41:24
In reply to Re: xanax vs klonopin » Frankie, posted by Alan on February 28, 2002, at 7:49:59
Hi Alan.
You seem very knowledgable on benzos. I have PD and have been taking 3mg/day of Xanax. There are only two things that annoy me. Firstly, I find it a little harder to speak fluently: the words are always "on the tip of my tongue" but often I just can't get them out. Sometimes I am just a little more absent-minded. It was not this way pre-Xanax. The other is having to take it 3X per day. I often find myself having do discreetly reach into my pocket at work and look around to make sure no one is looking when I pop it.
Is it worth talking to my doc about switching to Klonopin? Apparently it needs to be taken only twice a day. I could then take both doses at home.
Do you know if Klonopin is better in terms of word recall and other cognitive effects or is it totally an individual thing?
It is funny, I never get the sedation, cravings or roller-coaster rides so many people talk about when it comes to Xanax. Regular dosage just reduces my background anxiety. After taking heaps of ADs I find Xanax to be far superior in terms of benefits-to-side effects.Thrud
Posted by Alan on February 28, 2002, at 21:05:15
In reply to Re: xanax vs klonopin-Alan, posted by Thrud on February 28, 2002, at 17:41:24
> Hi Alan.
>
> You seem very knowledgable on benzos. I have PD and have been taking 3mg/day of Xanax. There are only two things that annoy me. Firstly, I find it a little harder to speak fluently: the words are always "on the tip of my tongue" but often I just can't get them out. Sometimes I am just a little more absent-minded. It was not this way pre-Xanax. The other is having to take it 3X per day. I often find myself having do discreetly reach into my pocket at work and look around to make sure no one is looking when I pop it.
> Is it worth talking to my doc about switching to Klonopin? Apparently it needs to be taken only twice a day. I could then take both doses at home.
> Do you know if Klonopin is better in terms of word recall and other cognitive effects or is it totally an individual thing?
> It is funny, I never get the sedation, cravings or roller-coaster rides so many people talk about when it comes to Xanax. Regular dosage just reduces my background anxiety. After taking heaps of ADs I find Xanax to be far superior in terms of benefits-to-side effects.
>
> Thrud
*********************************************
Yes, short term memory loss is a common side effect on BZD's. But memory loss is also a side effect from being under heavy duty anxiety too. Sounds like you've already made that decision as to the cost/benefit analysis....BZD's work as differently for individuals as different ssri's work for other individuals. You can only experiment - with you knowledgeable doctor's guidance of course. I take Klonopin daily and Ativan PRN for certain situational anxiety. Klonopin handles my GAD and Ativan breakthroug panic. Klon doesn't do it for me in the panic dept. - I'm a good example about what I speak of.
Alan
Posted by Frankie on March 2, 2002, at 3:51:31
In reply to Re: xanax vs klonopin » Frankie, posted by Alan on February 28, 2002, at 7:49:59
Alan,
I think you have msiunderstood some of the things I said above. However, I do stand by the statements I made, and I am misinforming no one. If this were not the case, these 2 medications would be given to more anxiety suffering patients initially, and not kept for a last resort. Most doctors reserve benzo's as a sure thing, but only in the case that all other options have failed. I don't agree with this at all, but it is a fact. I believe that some people have anxiety that yields a CNS depressant such as Klonopin. I am that type of person. I will submit a listing of at least 10 web addresses over the next few days to back up my statements. I will give you the proof you ask for.
Frankie.
Posted by Alan on March 3, 2002, at 8:35:43
In reply to Re: xanax vs klonopin, posted by Frankie on March 2, 2002, at 3:51:31
> Alan,
>
> I think you have msiunderstood some of the things I said above. However, I do stand by the statements I made, and I am misinforming no one. If this were not the case, these 2 medications would be given to more anxiety suffering patients initially, and not kept for a last resort. Most doctors reserve benzo's as a sure thing, but only in the case that all other options have failed. I don't agree with this at all, but it is a fact. I believe that some people have anxiety that yields a CNS depressant such as Klonopin. I am that type of person. I will submit a listing of at least 10 web addresses over the next few days to back up my statements. I will give you the proof you ask for.
>
> Frankie.
******************************************
Yes, please do. Perhaps there are things about which we are misunderstanding each other.Did you read the links that I posted to Gracie2?
Alan
Posted by TedR on March 3, 2002, at 22:20:52
In reply to Re: xanax vs klonopin, posted by Gracie2 on February 24, 2002, at 0:09:16
In lieu of all of the switching of ADs and such among patients,(the newer ADS and Buspar are no exception) there is a great deal of patient failures do to lack of efficacy, side effects, and sometimes outright exacerbation of the disorders from all of these other meds, I find it very difficult to single out the Benzos, as no longer first line viable options for anxiety and anxiety with depression etc, and above all, Panic disorder. They are very, very effective with minimal side effects, and most patients, over 90% do not abuse their benzo treatment. It is extremely short sided not to think that there is at least some common relationship between, say the treatment of diabetes with Insulin, and the treatment of anxiety disorders etc. with a benzo that directly influences the poorly functioning GABA component. The need for long term treatment for a disorder is not synonymous with drug dependence or addiction. The closed mindedness of many physicians to the benzos has caused many of their patients to continue to suffer for no good reason, and with the solution to this pain, right at the tip of the physician's Rxing pen!!
Posted by Frankie on March 5, 2002, at 2:16:47
In reply to Re: xanax vs klonopin, posted by TedR on March 3, 2002, at 22:20:52
> In lieu of all of the switching of ADs and such among patients,(the newer ADS and Buspar are no exception) there is a great deal of patient failures do to lack of efficacy, side effects, and sometimes outright exacerbation of the disorders from all of these other meds, I find it very difficult to single out the Benzos, as no longer first line viable options for anxiety and anxiety with depression etc, and above all, Panic disorder. They are very, very effective with minimal side effects, and most patients, over 90% do not abuse their benzo treatment. It is extremely short sided not to think that there is at least some common relationship between, say the treatment of diabetes with Insulin, and the treatment of anxiety disorders etc. with a benzo that directly influences the poorly functioning GABA component. The need for long term treatment for a disorder is not synonymous with drug dependence or addiction. The closed mindedness of many physicians to the benzos has caused many of their patients to continue to suffer for no good reason, and with the solution to this pain, right at the tip of the physician's Rxing pen!!
Ted,
Very well said! I thought I was a smooth talker! I don't mean that negatively. Believe me. I agree that the benzodiazepines are wonderful, highly effective medications. And best of all, dirt cheap if you have no prescription coverage, like me. I think too, that physicians are not prescribing these out enough. They are very safe, and furthermore, the side effect profile is low as hell. But I never held that in question. I only responded initially to this post to say that a tolerance will likely develop. It is pretty much a sure thing. Not too much different to building a tolerance to alcohol. And, furthermore, Xanax and Klonopin are the 2 that seem to be most associated with the tolerance. But, I believe, through experience, that one can control and avoid that potential tolerance to either one of these by using it secondary in the treatment of their anxiety disorder. Any of the five anxiety disorders can be at least somewhat benefitted by an antidepressant. Whether it be an MAO-I, a tricyclic, and SSRI, an atypical, etc... There will most likely be at least one out there that will relieve anxiety to a decent degree. You are right about the side effects, but I think the positives outweigh the negatives in the case of overwhelming and devastating anxiety problems. I say make the A/D the primary med. to treat the anxiety problem. Then combine a benzo with that. the dosage will not have to be as high, and one can most likely remain on that dosage for a longer period of time without having to raise it. In other words, give yourself a few choices as to variables to adjust. That is how I have found a pretty successful way to keep a multiple anxiety problem under control. If I were to just rely on a benzo, I don't think I could do it. But, I realize that everyone is very different, and what works for me, may not work for the next person. I hope this clarified things to Alan also. Take care guys.
Frankie.
Posted by andyboy on March 5, 2002, at 18:44:03
In reply to Re: xanax vs klonopin, posted by Frankie on March 5, 2002, at 2:16:47
I sit here and read everyone's comments-and yes-its true. Does an individual develop a tolerance over time? Many say yes, others no. I think that Alan is extremely knowledgeable (sp?) regarding this topic. Been on Klono for about a year (2mg/day). Although my body DID in fact develop a tolerance in time-it was only its side effects including, but not limited to-ataxia, unsteadiness, sleepiness, and slurred speech. HOWEVER, the theraputic effects have NOT worn off. My doc had no prob prescribing benzos to me pretty much right off the bat. Zoloft wasnt cutting it(loss of appetite/sex drive-2 very important things to me...) Klono saved me. Perhaps its not for everyone-but considering I had no prior substance abuse of any nature-he felt it was okay. There are exceptions to the rule-to claim that tolerance to benzos will develop in all cases is pure folly and completely undocumented. I suggest reading Alan's links-especially the 2nd one.
andy
Posted by Alan on March 5, 2002, at 23:27:37
In reply to Re: xanax vs klonopin, posted by Frankie on March 5, 2002, at 2:16:47
> > I only responded initially to this post to >say that a tolerance will likely develop.It is >pretty much a sure thing. Not too much >different to building a tolerance to alcohol. >And, furthermore, Xanax and Klonopin are the 2 >that seem to be most associated with the >tolerance.
This is simply not true for the vast majority of those on BZD's long term for legitimately diagnosed anxiety disorders. In fact, doses actually remain the same or decrease over time all of the studies have shown. I've been on them for 20 years and have read extensively about the scientific studies that say that this is the norm, unlike alcohol. The two cannot be compared since alcohol is not a medicine being used for medicinal purposes for a specific disorder or disease - comparing the two is like comparing a laser beam to a bazooka. There is no evidence that Klon or xanax are more closely asscociated with tolerance than anecdotal. Tolerance means that you have to taper - just like with any other drug, you can't come off of it cold turkey, and it does not mean that the tolerance will keep increasing.
> I say make the A/D the primary med. to treat >the anxiety problem. Then combine a benzo with >that. the dosage will not have to be as high, >and one can most likely remain on that dosage >for a longer period of time without having to >raise it.
This contradicts what you said earlier post about how AD's were NOT the best thing to prescribe first, that BZD's were much more successful and doctors shouldn't consider always prescribing an AD first. As a matter of fact, if the BZD were kept at a recommended dosage and didn't have the added complications of added side effects of the AD's, why wouldn't BZD monotherapy be preferable?
>But, I realize that everyone is very different, >and what works for me, may not work for the next >person. > Frankie.
I think that this is more what we're talking about here.
Alan
Posted by BobS. on March 6, 2002, at 18:53:31
In reply to Re: xanax vs klonopin » Frankie, posted by Alan on March 5, 2002, at 23:27:37
Alan,
Can you detail your 20 year history of BZD use and for what indications. I plan to be on them for the next 25 years (I'll be 85). But more importantly I am considering BZD therapy for my teenage children to make their next 60 better. Unless, of course, medicine moves on and finds something better. One can always hope.
This is the end of the thread.
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