![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 22 to 46 of 60. Go back in thread:
Posted by bob on January 15, 2002, at 0:59:19
In reply to Doing something, at least for me » Mags, posted by IsoM on January 15, 2002, at 0:34:33
Are you in the US? If so, how do you get Adrafanil if it's not FDA approved?
Posted by bob on January 15, 2002, at 1:11:33
In reply to Re: How does this happen? slowly over time or some .. » bob, posted by spike4848 on January 15, 2002, at 0:47:45
> > Does that help ..... intense p-therapy? Hey, how about ECT .... I have strongly been considering that .... no meds, no only small memory loss if done correctly .... what do you think?I laughed out loud when I saw your question about p-therapy! Seems you and I share a little cynicism?
ECT seems so final. I hear all kinds of different things about the outcomes. There's no guarantee on the amount of memory loss. Seems some are not even remotely happy about the amount of memory loss - and the beneficial effects don't last. Ironically, many of the negative testamonials I've read do admit that ECT brought them back from the abyss. Another thing that bothers me is that I'm seeing a well respected p-doc in my area (who is so successful he doesn't deal with insurance anymore and still has WAAAAYY too many patients who want to see him) and he hasn't suggested ECT outright to me. I've also been to two consultations at Hopkins, and they don't seem to be pushing it either. They admitted it is among the options, but it doesn't last. That tells me that most doctors are reserving it for truly desperate patients in hospitals.
> >> > Exactly, even my mother with depression does not want to validate my depression. She was started on impramine and has done well for 20 years. She tell me to pull myself up by the boot straps.
My mother and sister don't share the severity of my affliction (or maybe they don't share my treatment resistance/intolerance), although they both suffer somewhat. As a result, they often are perplexed by my behavior. I think everybody who's reasonably mentally healthy looks at the behavior of other people and an internal comparison is made to what they themselves would say or do. When someone does something that doesn't make sense to them, they think, "Gee, I wouldn't ever do that... why do they? Surely they should be able to control themselves or modify their behavior." This even goes for people who have behavioral problems in a certain area, but observe another persons problems they can't relate to.
> >
> > Spike
Posted by IsoM on January 15, 2002, at 1:13:52
In reply to Not sure what to do next ..... » IsoM, posted by spike4848 on January 14, 2002, at 23:41:38
Spike, I'm not in a position to advise anyone but you haven't given the SSRIs much of a try. Any reason? Some of them didn't work for me & some of them had side-effects too, too strong for me to tolerate, but right now Celexa is doing nicely (along with adrafinil).
For me, Celexa has been the best - lowest amount of side-effects (actually none I know of) & a pretty rapid response time. The adrafinil (for you, Provigil) is a wonderful addition to really make everything good. It seems to have over-all brain metabolism boosting power. (Sounds like some detergent commercial.)
If there isn't a reason you haven't tried more of the SSRIs, why not?
> Here is the list:>
> Imipramine to 300 mg/day - minimal response
> effexor to 350 mg/day - minimal response
> Wellbutrin to 300 mg/day - anxiety
> Imipramine and Lithium - worked ... used for 3 years, side effects of severe memory impairment, sexual dysfunction, tremor, sedation
> Remeron and Lithium - minimal response
> Nardil 60 mg/day - worked ... used for 4 years on and off .... but weight gain, sexual dysfunction, insomnia, memory problems
> Zoloft to 250 mg/day - minimal response
> Pamelor to 150 mg/day - minimal response
> Lamictal to 400 mg/day - minimal response
> Lamictal and ritalin - minimal response
> Lithium to 900 mg/day - minimal response
>
> * all the above are with 0.5 mg/day klonopin for panic attacks
>
> So really only Nardil and Imipramine/lithium have worked
>
> With Nardil my mood is actually 100% .... but I gain 35 lbs, impotent/decreased libdo, memory loss, insomnia (need ambien or no sleep all night) ..... so recently with all the weight gain I was getting afraid of developing diabetes and was tired of all the side effects .... so I tried lithium thinking maybe I am a soft bipolar(failing multiple antidepressants, atypical depression, have one relative with bipolar disease) ..... at 900 mg/day minimal effect .... I tried to go higher but had problems with vomiting
>
> So now I am considering
>
> 1. Back to Nardil with its side effects
> 2. Try Parnate
> 3. Try SSRI + lithium augmentation
> 4. Try Pamelor + zoloft
> 5. Provigil
>
> Don't know which way to turn .....
>
> Spike
Posted by ST on January 15, 2002, at 1:41:36
In reply to How depressed are YOU?, posted by spike4848 on January 14, 2002, at 19:29:53
Hi, Spike -
I agree, maybe you should take a look at some of the SSRIs. Celexa might work well.
But your subject - how depressed do I get? You are not alone in feeling that crappy. When I'm depressed I:...Sleep 12-16 hours
...NEVER answer the phone
...Either cry constantly or feel nothing
...Feel immensely overwhelmed; as if there is no way out and no point
...Constantly think of suicide and then get even more depressed that I would never have the energy or nerve to do it
...Call in sick for work day after day
...Am irritated with people who find joy in small things, or a comedy on TV or simply at the thought that there are people out there who don't lie in bed for 6 hours contemplating whether or not they should get up to brush their hair
...Drink too muchSo that's what happens to me. Luckily my depression has been kept in check with a cocktail of sorts:
Depakote, 500 mg.,
Wellbutrin 300 mg.
and now Effexor SR 225mg.
Before Effexor I was on Celexa, which was great, except that I gained weight. That's not always so for everyone, however.
I've always wondered, as well, if I suffer more than the next depressed person out there.
Good luck,
Sarah
> Sometimes I read other posts are feel like I am cursed with depression plus. Off nardil ....
>
> I sleep 16 hours a day
> Feel like I have 100 lbs weights on my feet
> Can't taste food
> Have no sense of smell
> Can't drag myself out of my apartment
> Can't drag myself to eat
> Don't answer the phone
> Can't smile
> Never see my friends
>
> Basically sit in bed and obsess about how terrible I feel
>
> I see other's who say there depressed say things like, I cry alot (.... I wish I could feel anything, even sadness) or can't have difficulties at work or have problem with anger.
>
> Do you guy here feel more like me ... dead to the world, or like the people I described above .... sad and angry.
>
> Spike
Posted by spike4848 on January 15, 2002, at 7:41:28
In reply to Re: Not sure what to do next ..... » spike4848, posted by IsoM on January 15, 2002, at 1:13:52
> Spike, I'm not in a position to advise anyone but you haven't given the SSRIs much of a try. Any reason? Some of them didn't work for me & some of them had side-effects too, too strong for me to tolerate, but right now Celexa is doing nicely (along with adrafinil).
>
> For me, Celexa has been the best - lowest amount of side-effects (actually none I know of) & a pretty rapid response time. The adrafinil (for you, Provigil) is a wonderful addition to really make everything good. It seems to have over-all brain metabolism boosting power. (Sounds like some detergent commercial.)
>
> If there isn't a reason you haven't tried more of the SSRIs, why not?I personally thought they were somewhat of a marketing scam .... the studies are pretty aweful. I didn't mention that my first med was actually Prozac. Because I had panic attackes, my pdoc titrated me up to 20 mg over 6 weeks and at 8 weeks nothing. So, he suggested I go to 40mg or I could try imipramine which my mother with depression/panic had done superbly on. I went with the family history and thus imipramine.
I am reconsidering .... maybe paxil/celexa with augmentation.
What do you think for augmentation desipramine ... provigil .... wellbutrin ... . lithium
Thanks,
Spike
Posted by spike4848 on January 15, 2002, at 7:45:27
In reply to Re: How depressed are YOU?, posted by ST on January 15, 2002, at 1:41:36
> So that's what happens to me. Luckily my depression has been kept in check with a cocktail of sorts:
> Depakote, 500 mg.,
> Wellbutrin 300 mg.
> and now Effexor SR 225mg.
> Before Effexor I was on Celexa, which was great, except that I gained weight. That's not always so for everyone, however.
> I've always wondered, as well, if I suffer more than the next depressed person out there.
> Good luck,
> SarahHey Sarah,
Thanks for the advice ..... May I ask what the depakote is for ... bipolar ... anxiety. I was considering depakote at low dose with my history of panic attacks.
Thanks
Spike
Posted by Mags on January 15, 2002, at 8:06:59
In reply to Re: How depressed are YOU? » ST, posted by spike4848 on January 15, 2002, at 7:45:27
Thanks Spike for letting us spout about how we FEEL. Great topic!
Although not the most uplifting subject it is really nice to see how many of us feel similar.
I attend group therapy and they all come from abusive childhoods, bad marriages, death's etc.I always feel a little guilty when I listen to them. How could I be depressed when I have nothing situational to do it to me. Their stories are horrific and yet I FEEL the same as them.
It is nice to be validated by what I have read in these last few post.As some of you have said, others that don't understand look at you and think why doesn;t she snap out of it!!
Thanks all, you have helped mucho!
plus the med advise is great also.....
Mags> > So that's what happens to me. Luckily my depression has been kept in check with a cocktail of sorts:
> > Depakote, 500 mg.,
> > Wellbutrin 300 mg.
> > and now Effexor SR 225mg.
> > Before Effexor I was on Celexa, which was great, except that I gained weight. That's not always so for everyone, however.
> > I've always wondered, as well, if I suffer more than the next depressed person out there.
> > Good luck,
> > Sarah
>
> Hey Sarah,
>
> Thanks for the advice ..... May I ask what the depakote is for ... bipolar ... anxiety. I was considering depakote at low dose with my history of panic attacks.
>
> Thanks
>
> Spike
Posted by cmcdougall on January 15, 2002, at 10:31:28
In reply to How does this happen? slowly over time or some .., posted by bonnie_ann on January 14, 2002, at 21:37:09
There is a history of depression and bi-polar in my family going back several generations. I know because I started asking the "old folks" at a recent family reunion. They just didn't call it mental illness. They called is eccentricity, laziness, irresponsibility, or insanity. I was amazed at the stories I heard about my great-grandmother, great-uncle, etc. My mother and brother also both have depression.
My depression sneaks up on me and I don't realize it until I truly crash. This most recent crash started last year when DH sued his ex-wife over visitation issues having to do w/ his children. I became obsessed w/ family law and father's rights issues. I slowly quit taking care of my business, paying bills, etc. I hid all this from my husband because I didn't want him to think I was lazy (or whatever). For some reason, the idea that my AD (EffexorXr 150mg/2xday) was pooping out never entered my head. The fact that I tried to hide all the symptoms kept friends and family from noticing anything until it was too late. I recall my DH and friends questioning if I felt OK, and I kept assuring them I was fine.
The downhill slide progressed until I was:
* going to bed at 7:30 each night
* waking up at 3AM only to fall back asleep at 4:30AM and sleep till 10AM
* napping several hours each day
* staying home from work
* not bathing, getting dressed or putting on makeup
* eating all day
* not answering the phone
* not paying ANY bills or filing important state and federal reports
* not doing any household tasks
* ending up in psych ward after suicide threatI could go on, but most of you can fill in the blanks...
Since November I've been on a med combo of desipramine, celexa, adderal and trazodone. This seems to be doing the trick for me right now. I pray it lasts...
Carly
Posted by Denise528 on January 15, 2002, at 12:28:52
In reply to How does this happen? It sneaks up!, posted by cmcdougall on January 15, 2002, at 10:31:28
> Spike,
Have you tried Zyprexa? I've been through absolute hell since summer, I don't say that flippantly, I'm sure if there had been a cliff nearby I would have jumped off it by now. The only thing that has helped me to at least keep up a pretence of being normal is Zyprexa, it hastn't lifted the depression but at least I can sort of function at work.
It might be worth a try until you find something that does work.
Denise
Posted by IsoM on January 15, 2002, at 13:34:35
In reply to Re: Not sure what to do next ..... » IsoM, posted by spike4848 on January 15, 2002, at 7:41:28
Okay, if it was me, I'd first try out some SSRIs to find one that doesn't have intolerable side-effects. My previous experience with the short half-life SSRIs like Paxil, for example, would steer me away from those. If you're late in taking it or miss a dose, you're more likely to notice withdrawal/discontinuation feelings. It's not true for everyone. My 19 yr old son wasn't affected as strongly as I was, but for me, if I took it normally in the morning & forgot, the unpleasant feelings would start by afternoon, letting me know I forgot. I'd suggest a SSRI with a middle range half-life. For me, Celexa is good. Prozac did nothing for me either, so just because one SSRI (or two) don't work, doesn't mean they're all duds.
I'd take the SSRI alone for a short while to make sure you can tolerate it & to see how well it works. Then, if necessary (& it probably will be), I'd augment it with a TCA that's worked well for you in the past.After that's stable & you find a combo that helps (it doesn't have to help 100%), I'd top it with Provigil (or adrafinil). It's used in Europe as an AD too, not just for memory & alertness. After all, the type of drugs they belong to are called eugeroics or good arousal.
For me, my doctor & I have tried topping up previous combos with lithium (nothing), tryptophan (nothing), Buspar (bad jitters), Inderal (triggered asthma, previously unknown to me), Xanax [alprazolam] (nice but didn't help my constant sleepiness). Celexa isn't enough for me, especially in winter & its darkness, but adrafinil honestly makes it 100% for me. If this isn't 100%, more would have to be hypomania.
By the way, not just women develop hypothyroidism. Have you ever had your TSH levels checked? If it's a little high perhaps a bit of thyroxine would help?
> >"I am reconsidering .... maybe paxil/celexa with augmentation.
What do you think for augmentation desipramine ... provigil .... wellbutrin ... . lithium. Spike"
Posted by IsoM on January 15, 2002, at 13:48:08
In reply to How does this happen? It sneaks up!, posted by cmcdougall on January 15, 2002, at 10:31:28
This is why I think depression has been around all the time thoughout history. We just have the luxury to call it what it really is now.
On my ex-husband's side, I found an old, old photo that was the spitting image of my ex. Everyone who saw it was blown away with the *exact* resemblance. That man died in an insane ayslum. The story was after his house burned down & he lost some family, he went insane & was locked away.
My Mom says as a child, she remembers her mother sitting in a dark corner with her head in her hands for hours at a time. My father had "something". Never could put a name to it, but he was very strange & at times, very depressed. Tried to commit suicide once. Another time, when no one was home, he tried to burn down the house that he built from scratch with his own hands. I have a strange brother who's terrified of letting people know what's inside him. He seems to be a pathological liar. If you say it's white, he'll say it's black. Time & again, he can be caught in his lies. Why? It confounds us.
A mother-in-law who had strong Asperger traits (she's passed on), a brother- and sister-in-law with depression, three sons with depression, the list could go on & on.
Sometimes I think we're unconsciously drawn to marry others similar to us with problems, accentuating it for the next generations.
> There is a history of depression and bi-polar in my family going back several generations. I know because I started asking the "old folks" at a recent family reunion. They just didn't call it mental illness. They called is eccentricity, laziness, irresponsibility, or insanity. I was amazed at the stories I heard about my great-grandmother, great-uncle, etc. My mother and brother also both have depression.
>
> My depression sneaks up on me and I don't realize it until I truly crash. This most recent crash started last year when DH sued his ex-wife over visitation issues having to do w/ his children. I became obsessed w/ family law and father's rights issues. I slowly quit taking care of my business, paying bills, etc. I hid all this from my husband because I didn't want him to think I was lazy (or whatever). For some reason, the idea that my AD (EffexorXr 150mg/2xday) was pooping out never entered my head. The fact that I tried to hide all the symptoms kept friends and family from noticing anything until it was too late. I recall my DH and friends questioning if I felt OK, and I kept assuring them I was fine.
>
> The downhill slide progressed until I was:
>
> * going to bed at 7:30 each night
> * waking up at 3AM only to fall back asleep at 4:30AM and sleep till 10AM
> * napping several hours each day
> * staying home from work
> * not bathing, getting dressed or putting on makeup
> * eating all day
> * not answering the phone
> * not paying ANY bills or filing important state and federal reports
> * not doing any household tasks
> * ending up in psych ward after suicide threat
>
> I could go on, but most of you can fill in the blanks...
>
> Since November I've been on a med combo of desipramine, celexa, adderal and trazodone. This seems to be doing the trick for me right now. I pray it lasts...
>
> Carly
Posted by bob on January 15, 2002, at 14:33:36
In reply to Re: How depressed are YOU?, posted by ST on January 15, 2002, at 1:41:36
I too have feelings of anger towards those who seem to be healthy and happy when I'm really down. It's a vicious cycle. I also have feelings of anger sometimes that most people don't need medecine to survive.
Posted by bob on January 15, 2002, at 14:48:46
In reply to Re: Family History of Depression » cmcdougall, posted by IsoM on January 15, 2002, at 13:48:08
> Sometimes I think we're unconsciously drawn to marry others similar to us with problems, accentuating it for the next generations.Unfortunately for humans, it seems as though despite this possibly being genetic "vulnerabilities", it often (or even mostly) isn't serious enough to stop the afflicted individual from reproducing. Thus, it has been perpetuated throughout time. Even if the condition eventually incapacitates the person, often by that time the children have been born, and human altruism takes over: other members of family or society take care of them. Pure, unadulterated evolutionism without altruism would surely have eliminated these genotypes by now. Then again, altruism is a product of natural selection also.
Posted by spike4848 on January 15, 2002, at 17:20:49
In reply to Re: Family History of Depression » IsoM, posted by bob on January 15, 2002, at 14:48:46
> > Sometimes I think we're unconsciously drawn to marry others similar to us with problems, accentuating it for the next generations.
Yes .... I find when I am depressed, I want no relationships. When a med brings me up just enought to breath some fresh air .... that is makes me feel 30% better ... I am attracted to others that are depressed. Maybe it is because that is all I can handle, another depressed individual. When I feel normal, I am driven to healthy relationships.
I think that how my parent met ... both mildly depressed. They had three severely depressed sons .... one of which is me.
Spike
Posted by spike4848 on January 15, 2002, at 17:29:05
In reply to Thanks for topic Spike!, posted by Mags on January 15, 2002, at 8:06:59
> Thanks Spike for letting us spout about how we FEEL. Great topic!
>
> Although not the most uplifting subject it is really nice to see how many of us feel similar.
> I attend group therapy and they all come from abusive childhoods, bad marriages, death's etc.
>
> I always feel a little guilty when I listen to them. How could I be depressed when I have nothing situational to do it to me. Their stories are horrific and yet I FEEL the same as them.
>
> It is nice to be validated by what I have read in these last few post.As some of you have said, others that don't understand look at you and think why doesn;t she snap out of it!!
>
> Thanks all, you have helped mucho!
> plus the med advise is great also.....
> MagsHey Mags,
This post had been the best ever for me. I finally have met others with severe depression not convoluted with other issues such as abuse, etc. I guess some of us just got smacked hard with the depression genes.
I too would like to thank everyone who has posted .... finally alittle vindication ..... alittle reassurance .....
We should start a support group .... the normal childhood/adolescent depression group
Spike
Posted by spike4848 on January 15, 2002, at 17:36:11
In reply to Re: augmentation..... » spike4848, posted by IsoM on January 15, 2002, at 13:34:35
> I'd take the SSRI alone for a short while to make sure you can tolerate it & to see how well it works. Then, if necessary (& it probably will be), I'd augment it with a TCA that's worked well for you in the past.
>
> After that's stable & you find a combo that helps (it doesn't have to help 100%), I'd top it with Provigil (or adrafinil). It's used in Europe as an AD too, not just for memory & alertness. After all, the type of drugs they belong to are called eugeroics or good arousal.I think that is exactly what I am going to do .... hey when I treat high blood pressure, I use one or two potent medication and sometimes top it off with a third .... why not do the same with depression. Hit it hard with medication that have different modes of actions ..... I really like the celexa with possibly pamelor or desipramine combo ..... thank isom .... and thank for sticking with me when I did respond to your first post ask my medication history. I was kind of embarrassed to have been on so many medication without sucess .....
I will keep you updated!
Spike
Posted by IsoM on January 15, 2002, at 17:50:44
In reply to Re: Family History of Depression » IsoM, posted by bob on January 15, 2002, at 14:48:46
Bob, I agree with you but...
If anyone has studied even a little on genetics & how characteristics are passed on from one generation to another & ALL the extra possibilities of genetic drift, crossing over & gene recombination, & whether characteristics are sex-linked or not, will know how convulated it can get. New characteristics can pop up all the time that wasn't even part of the genetic make-up of previous generations.
I think if we were to try & eliminate the bad traits by these people not reproducing (which I'm NOT suggesting you said), we'd lose so many of our geniuses. Lord Tennyson had a strong history of bipolar distorder in running in his family. Just doing a search on Google for creative, highly intelligent people would show many with disorders & depression.
I'm not saying that creative genius is linked with depression, just that along with the 'bad' genes are many that are very, very good. At this point, I think we have to accept the bad with the good, unfortunately.
Altruism is one of our best characteristics. No social animal can grow without this quality. Maybe if we were like Tasmanian devils, weasels, or shrews we wouldn't need it but then civilisation would never have developed. :)
>
> > Sometimes I think we're unconsciously drawn to marry others similar to us with problems, accentuating it for the next generations.
>
> Unfortunately for humans, it seems as though despite this possibly being genetic "vulnerabilities", it often (or even mostly) isn't serious enough to stop the afflicted individual from reproducing. Thus, it has been perpetuated throughout time. Even if the condition eventually incapacitates the person, often by that time the children have been born, and human altruism takes over: other members of family or society take care of them. Pure, unadulterated evolutionism without altruism would surely have eliminated these genotypes by now. Then again, altruism is a product of natural selection also.
Posted by IsoM on January 15, 2002, at 17:59:34
In reply to Re: augmentation..... » IsoM, posted by spike4848 on January 15, 2002, at 17:36:11
Great, Spike! I *know* you know this, but be patient. Do realise you're going to get discouraged & say "this crap isn't doing a damn thing for me!" & just go with the flow. Don't feel guilty about feeling discouraged during this period of finding something that works. Realise that it's perfectly normal to be discouraged & want to give up. Feel it - just don't give in & give up.
Just keep telling yourself that there's others rooting for you that have and/or are going through the same thing. And you're strong for tackling it & not giving up. Then, one day you'll look up & say "hey, the sun does shine after all!"
I think the person who finds a good AD or even a good combo first time off is very, VERY rare. Most of us who are functional or feel good have gotten that way after a long search.
>
> > I'd take the SSRI alone for a short while to make sure you can tolerate it & to see how well it works. Then, if necessary (& it probably will be), I'd augment it with a TCA that's worked well for you in the past.
> >
> > After that's stable & you find a combo that helps (it doesn't have to help 100%), I'd top it with Provigil (or adrafinil). It's used in Europe as an AD too, not just for memory & alertness. After all, the type of drugs they belong to are called eugeroics or good arousal.
>
> I think that is exactly what I am going to do .... hey when I treat high blood pressure, I use one or two potent medication and sometimes top it off with a third .... why not do the same with depression. Hit it hard with medication that have different modes of actions ..... I really like the celexa with possibly pamelor or desipramine combo ..... thank isom .... and thank for sticking with me when I did respond to your first post ask my medication history. I was kind of embarrassed to have been on so many medication without sucess .....
>
> I will keep you updated!
>
> Spike
Posted by fuji on January 15, 2002, at 19:20:22
In reply to Re: Augmentation.and Persistance » spike4848, posted by IsoM on January 15, 2002, at 17:59:34
This is the first time I have posted and I can relate to an awful lot (unfortunately!). I am a recovering addict (15+years), have been on various anti-depressants for the past 10 years or so currently taking efxr & prozac and considering ritalin augmentation. I have been wondering if any others are recovering, and also I wonder if there is such a thing as an addict recovering or not recovering, that doesn't suffer from depression? I guess I think that addiction is just a form of self-medicating the depression but unfortunately, the resulting addiction brings with it its own set of problems. Just curious because I don't recall seeing anyone mention recovery?
> Great, Spike! I *know* you know this, but be patient. Do realise you're going to get discouraged & say "this crap isn't doing a damn thing for me!" & just go with the flow. Don't feel guilty about feeling discouraged during this period of finding something that works. Realise that it's perfectly normal to be discouraged & want to give up. Feel it - just don't give in & give up.
>
> Just keep telling yourself that there's others rooting for you that have and/or are going through the same thing. And you're strong for tackling it & not giving up. Then, one day you'll look up & say "hey, the sun does shine after all!"
>
> I think the person who finds a good AD or even a good combo first time off is very, VERY rare. Most of us who are functional or feel good have gotten that way after a long search.
>
> >
> > > I'd take the SSRI alone for a short while to make sure you can tolerate it & to see how well it works. Then, if necessary (& it probably will be), I'd augment it with a TCA that's worked well for you in the past.
> > >
> > > After that's stable & you find a combo that helps (it doesn't have to help 100%), I'd top it with Provigil (or adrafinil). It's used in Europe as an AD too, not just for memory & alertness. After all, the type of drugs they belong to are called eugeroics or good arousal.
> >
> > I think that is exactly what I am going to do .... hey when I treat high blood pressure, I use one or two potent medication and sometimes top it off with a third .... why not do the same with depression. Hit it hard with medication that have different modes of actions ..... I really like the celexa with possibly pamelor or desipramine combo ..... thank isom .... and thank for sticking with me when I did respond to your first post ask my medication history. I was kind of embarrassed to have been on so many medication without sucess .....
> >
> > I will keep you updated!
> >
> > Spike
Posted by sid on January 15, 2002, at 19:40:26
In reply to augmentation persistence, posted by fuji on January 15, 2002, at 19:20:22
That's because people who recover have better things to do than writing on this board I suppose. People come here for support, sharing experiences and looking for info before seeing a doc, etc... So I guess those who are well don't need it anymore.
> This is the first time I have posted and I can relate to an awful lot (unfortunately!). I am a recovering addict (15+years), have been on various anti-depressants for the past 10 years or so currently taking efxr & prozac and considering ritalin augmentation. I have been wondering if any others are recovering, and also I wonder if there is such a thing as an addict recovering or not recovering, that doesn't suffer from depression? I guess I think that addiction is just a form of self-medicating the depression but unfortunately, the resulting addiction brings with it its own set of problems. Just curious because I don't recall seeing anyone mention recovery?
>
>
> > Great, Spike! I *know* you know this, but be patient. Do realise you're going to get discouraged & say "this crap isn't doing a damn thing for me!" & just go with the flow. Don't feel guilty about feeling discouraged during this period of finding something that works. Realise that it's perfectly normal to be discouraged & want to give up. Feel it - just don't give in & give up.
> >
> > Just keep telling yourself that there's others rooting for you that have and/or are going through the same thing. And you're strong for tackling it & not giving up. Then, one day you'll look up & say "hey, the sun does shine after all!"
> >
> > I think the person who finds a good AD or even a good combo first time off is very, VERY rare. Most of us who are functional or feel good have gotten that way after a long search.
> >
> > >
> > > > I'd take the SSRI alone for a short while to make sure you can tolerate it & to see how well it works. Then, if necessary (& it probably will be), I'd augment it with a TCA that's worked well for you in the past.
> > > >
> > > > After that's stable & you find a combo that helps (it doesn't have to help 100%), I'd top it with Provigil (or adrafinil). It's used in Europe as an AD too, not just for memory & alertness. After all, the type of drugs they belong to are called eugeroics or good arousal.
> > >
> > > I think that is exactly what I am going to do .... hey when I treat high blood pressure, I use one or two potent medication and sometimes top it off with a third .... why not do the same with depression. Hit it hard with medication that have different modes of actions ..... I really like the celexa with possibly pamelor or desipramine combo ..... thank isom .... and thank for sticking with me when I did respond to your first post ask my medication history. I was kind of embarrassed to have been on so many medication without sucess .....
> > >
> > > I will keep you updated!
> > >
> > > Spike
Posted by fuji on January 15, 2002, at 20:21:38
In reply to Re: augmentation persistence » fuji, posted by sid on January 15, 2002, at 19:40:26
I guess I don't have anything better to do or I am not very well or if I am real lucky I have nothing better to do and I am not well...
> That's because people who recover have better things to do than writing on this board I suppose. People come here for support, sharing experiences and looking for info before seeing a doc, etc... So I guess those who are well don't need it anymore.
>
> > This is the first time I have posted and I can relate to an awful lot (unfortunately!). I am a recovering addict (15+years), have been on various anti-depressants for the past 10 years or so currently taking efxr & prozac and considering ritalin augmentation. I have been wondering if any others are recovering, and also I wonder if there is such a thing as an addict recovering or not recovering, that doesn't suffer from depression? I guess I think that addiction is just a form of self-medicating the depression but unfortunately, the resulting addiction brings with it its own set of problems. Just curious because I don't recall seeing anyone mention recovery?
> >
> >
> > > Great, Spike! I *know* you know this, but be patient. Do realise you're going to get discouraged & say "this crap isn't doing a damn thing for me!" & just go with the flow. Don't feel guilty about feeling discouraged during this period of finding something that works. Realise that it's perfectly normal to be discouraged & want to give up. Feel it - just don't give in & give up.
> > >
> > > Just keep telling yourself that there's others rooting for you that have and/or are going through the same thing. And you're strong for tackling it & not giving up. Then, one day you'll look up & say "hey, the sun does shine after all!"
> > >
> > > I think the person who finds a good AD or even a good combo first time off is very, VERY rare. Most of us who are functional or feel good have gotten that way after a long search.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > I'd take the SSRI alone for a short while to make sure you can tolerate it & to see how well it works. Then, if necessary (& it probably will be), I'd augment it with a TCA that's worked well for you in the past.
> > > > >
> > > > > After that's stable & you find a combo that helps (it doesn't have to help 100%), I'd top it with Provigil (or adrafinil). It's used in Europe as an AD too, not just for memory & alertness. After all, the type of drugs they belong to are called eugeroics or good arousal.
> > > >
> > > > I think that is exactly what I am going to do .... hey when I treat high blood pressure, I use one or two potent medication and sometimes top it off with a third .... why not do the same with depression. Hit it hard with medication that have different modes of actions ..... I really like the celexa with possibly pamelor or desipramine combo ..... thank isom .... and thank for sticking with me when I did respond to your first post ask my medication history. I was kind of embarrassed to have been on so many medication without sucess .....
> > > >
> > > > I will keep you updated!
> > > >
> > > > Spike
Posted by nightlight on January 15, 2002, at 22:50:48
In reply to How does this happen? It sneaks up!, posted by cmcdougall on January 15, 2002, at 10:31:28
Hi Carly~Yeah, there's 'history' in my background as well, tho I knew little about it, or didn't put the 'pieces' together until I realized I had my own little nameplate waiting for me on the 'wee bit *teched* (read: nutty, deranged, Eccentric or downright psychotic) branch of our family tree.
I had 'known' s/t was wrong w/me since my teens, but I figured I was just lazy, damaged, warped or in some way, simply, cursed. Then my dad (my all-time favorite person-smart, funny, so kind) had a breakdown about 12 yrs. ago. How cd. this most brilliant and wonderful person suddenly (but, not really suddenly) lose their mind?
Depression, anxiety disorder, PTSD, etc.It was all there. Then hospital, shrinks, drugs (the wrong ones) and then several rounds of ECT. Very bad idea-his own father died (heart attack) during an ECT treatment in 1946. [I know, ECT is different now, but the possible emotional/psychological damage this treatment could've (and did) have on my dad was unpredictable and immeasurable]. He did recover, slowly, was still one terrific man, but never the same *mind* again. And, lord, did he rue that loss. He was quite well-read and had had an amazing memory for details. He had permanent memory damage, raging fear of docs, and was never sufficiently medicated. He had been abruptly withdrawn from 15 yrs. on low-dose valium prior to his 'breakdown'. He never took another benzo-the docs made him feel that his med had made him nuts-and limped along bravely for another 12 years, enduring anxiety attacks, dep, panic, etc. w/only the help of 25 mgs.of desipramine, 10 mgs. thioridizine and, for his 'nerves', an occasional Vistaril (hydroxyzine, which I believe he thought was prob'ly addictive, until I told him it was an antihistamine, for god's sake, take 2 please!).
One yr. after his illness became apparent, I divorced (amicably) and moved back to my hometown. I swore I'd be by my parents' sides from then on, in order to help them make sense of any medical crises I could. I had to learn a lot. I lived with them off and on for 10 yrs. as heart bypasses, cancers, colostomy and Alzheimer's took their various tolls on this sweet couple (50 yrs. married) as they aged. Daddy died in 2000 at age 74, Mother 14 months later in April 2001. She was 71. But, I digress...I loved them so much. And I sure do miss them, but not their suffering.
So, 12 yrs. ago, I started to think about whether I might really be 'ill', and not just a weak, powerless, hurting individual. Bingo...I was finally on the right road-tho it has taken me that many yrs. to find a decent p-doc and hope for a true remission sometime soon. I have a husband and a 5 yr old. We all deserve my wellness, if it's a possibility.
Sorry for the ramble-guess I'm feeling emotional tonight.
nightlight
ps-ur depression symptoms are like a carbon-copy of mine! And, trying to 'hide it' all the while. Jeez...thr backtracking damage control I have before me is immensely daunting-but, at least I'm awake most of the day.
> There is a history of depression and bi-polar in my family going back several generations. I know because I started asking the "old folks" at a recent family reunion. They just didn't call it mental illness. They called is eccentricity, laziness, irresponsibility, or insanity. I was amazed at the stories I heard about my great-grandmother, great-uncle, etc. My mother and brother also both have depression.
>
> My depression sneaks up on me and I don't realize it until I truly crash. This most recent crash started last year when DH sued his ex-wife over visitation issues having to do w/ his children. I became obsessed w/ family law and father's rights issues. I slowly quit taking care of my business, paying bills, etc. I hid all this from my husband because I didn't want him to think I was lazy (or whatever). For some reason, the idea that my AD (EffexorXr 150mg/2xday) was pooping out never entered my head. The fact that I tried to hide all the symptoms kept friends and family from noticing anything until it was too late. I recall my DH and friends questioning if I felt OK, and I kept assuring them I was fine.
>
> The downhill slide progressed until I was:
>
> * going to bed at 7:30 each night
> * waking up at 3AM only to fall back asleep at 4:30AM and sleep till 10AM
> * napping several hours each day
> * staying home from work
> * not bathing, getting dressed or putting on makeup
> * eating all day
> * not answering the phone
> * not paying ANY bills or filing important state and federal reports
> * not doing any household tasks
> * ending up in psych ward after suicide threat
>
> I could go on, but most of you can fill in the blanks...
>
> Since November I've been on a med combo of desipramine, celexa, adderal and trazodone. This seems to be doing the trick for me right now. I pray it lasts...
>
> Carly
Posted by Mr. Scott on January 15, 2002, at 23:05:51
In reply to Re: Not sure what to do next ..... » IsoM, posted by spike4848 on January 15, 2002, at 7:41:28
I wonder if the key isn't just any good AD with the addition of Lithium? I've heard that lithium helps get more AD into the cells. Maybe if you found the AD you liked most based on side effects and then added in the old LICO3 that might do the trick.. Just a thought
Scott
Posted by bob on January 16, 2002, at 0:02:32
In reply to Re: Thanks for topic Spike! » Mags, posted by spike4848 on January 15, 2002, at 17:29:05
> Hey Mags,
>
> This post had been the best ever for me. I finally have met others with severe depression not convoluted with other issues such as abuse, etc. I guess some of us just got smacked hard with the depression genes.
>
> I too would like to thank everyone who has posted .... finally alittle vindication ..... alittle reassurance .....
>
> We should start a support group .... the normal childhood/adolescent depression group
>
> Spike
I would also like to be a member of that group. I had a fantastic childhood, and a reasonable adolesence.
Posted by bob on January 16, 2002, at 0:13:05
In reply to Re: Genetics of Depression » bob, posted by IsoM on January 15, 2002, at 17:50:44
> Bob, I agree with you but...
>
> If anyone has studied even a little on genetics & how characteristics are passed on from one generation to another & ALL the extra possibilities of genetic drift, crossing over & gene recombination, & whether characteristics are sex-linked or not, will know how convulated it can get. New characteristics can pop up all the time that wasn't even part of the genetic make-up of previous generations.
>
> I think if we were to try & eliminate the bad traits by these people not reproducing (which I'm NOT suggesting you said), we'd lose so many of our geniuses. Lord Tennyson had a strong history of bipolar distorder in running in his family. Just doing a search on Google for creative, highly intelligent people would show many with disorders & depression.
>
> I'm not saying that creative genius is linked with depression, just that along with the 'bad' genes are many that are very, very good. At this point, I think we have to accept the bad with the good, unfortunately.
>
> Altruism is one of our best characteristics. No social animal can grow without this quality. Maybe if we were like Tasmanian devils, weasels, or shrews we wouldn't need it but then civilisation would never have developed. :)
>
>
I think most would rather be happy, than creative every now and again. There must be some creative people out there that weren't mentally ill. As you say, we have to accept the bad with the good for now, because we have no other choice.Your right, I didn't suggest we eliminate bad traits by not reproducing. I was just referring to an article on genetics which actually was linked on this board. It suggested that these afflictions were due to pathogens , and not genetics, because if it had been otherwise, the incidence of the diseases would have reduced down to random genetic mutation level since even a less than one percent reduction in reproduction rate will reduce the occurrence of a gene in the population. I was just mentioning how I wasn't sure that mental illness reduces offspring all that much, if at all compared to the rest of the population.
I also didn't meant to suggest that altruism was a bad thing... on the whole it has been instrumental in passing our genes on to the next generation.
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