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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 3 to 27 of 29. Go back in thread:
Posted by CalvaryHill on January 10, 2002, at 7:05:30
In reply to Is effexor an SSRI?, posted by Denise528 on January 10, 2002, at 5:24:33
Effexor inhibits the reuptake of only serotonin at 75mg/day, thus giving it an SSRI-like quality. At something like 150-375 mg, Effexor inhibits the reuptake of both serotonin and norepinephrine, making it similar in effect to some Tertiary Amine Tricyclics. But Effexor definitely has fewer side-effects than most of the tricyclics except maybe desipramine. :)
Posted by Denise528 on January 10, 2002, at 7:36:36
In reply to SNRI » Denise528, posted by CalvaryHill on January 10, 2002, at 7:05:30
> Thanks for that information. In that case I won't try Effexor as the SSRIs don't seem to be working for me anyway.
Are there any other drugs out there that are not SSRIs but which do effect Serotonin?
Denise
Posted by CalvaryHill on January 10, 2002, at 9:44:44
In reply to Re: SNRI, posted by Denise528 on January 10, 2002, at 7:36:36
Clomipramine is a tricyclic which is more potent in serotonin reuptake than any other medicine on the market. Others include Serzone (nefazodone), Zyprexa (an atypical neuroleptic), Lamictal (a mood stabilizer), Viloxazine (another SNRI), and Dothiepin (a tricyclic). Serotonergic manipulation is useful for dysthymia, depression, OCD, PMDD, BDD, and even ADHD.
> Are there any other drugs out there that are not SSRIs but which do effect Serotonin?
>
> Denise
Posted by mr.scott on January 10, 2002, at 13:00:33
In reply to Re: SNRI, posted by Denise528 on January 10, 2002, at 7:36:36
> > Thanks for that information. In that case I won't try Effexor as the SSRIs don't seem to be working for me anyway.
Thats probably a good idea, however... Something like 50% of all people who don't respond to an SSRI will improve with Effexor.
An additional 10% of patients achieve remission with Effexor over SSRI's.
Posted by Denise528 on January 11, 2002, at 8:40:47
In reply to Re: SNRI » Denise528, posted by mr.scott on January 10, 2002, at 13:00:33
> > > Thanks again for the information. If a serotonin enhancing drug no longer works for me when once it did, does this mean that my condition is no longer Serotonin related or does it simply mean that the drugs don't work anymore. Have I used up all of my lifelines. At the moment the only thing helping is Zyprexa but this is not an ideal situation although I am glad that something is helping.
Denise
Posted by Raga on January 11, 2002, at 13:57:37
In reply to Re: Other than Effexor » Denise528, posted by CalvaryHill on January 10, 2002, at 9:44:44
> Serotonergic manipulation is useful for dysthymia, depression, OCD, PMDD, BDD, and even ADHD.
CalvaryHill, just wondering what you know about treating ADHD with serotonergic manipulation. As far as I've heard, (and in my drugging experience), SSRIs and such are useless for relieving ADHD symptoms.
Posted by IsoM on January 12, 2002, at 2:20:22
In reply to Serotonin manipulation useful for ADHD? » CalvaryHill, posted by Raga on January 11, 2002, at 13:57:37
Raga, SSRIs are very effective at treating one aspect of ADHD & that's the impulsivness of a ADHD person. It serves to temper the impulsivness so one's less likely to blurt out the first thing that comes into their head (makes us think a little, most times, before we open out mouths just to change feet). It helps stop us from leaping before looking, so to speak. It's not that it's completely eliminated but gives us better control over it, at least.
This is how I've heard it explained by the psychologist who tested me & it does seem to be true for me.
> > Serotonergic manipulation is useful for dysthymia, depression, OCD, PMDD, BDD, and even ADHD.
>
> CalvaryHill, just wondering what you know about treating ADHD with serotonergic manipulation. As far as I've heard, (and in my drugging experience), SSRIs and such are useless for relieving ADHD symptoms.
Posted by Mitch on January 12, 2002, at 11:33:36
In reply to Re: Serotonin manipulation useful for ADHD? » Raga, posted by IsoM on January 12, 2002, at 2:20:22
> Raga, SSRIs are very effective at treating one aspect of ADHD & that's the impulsivness of a ADHD person. It serves to temper the impulsivness so one's less likely to blurt out the first thing that comes into their head (makes us think a little, most times, before we open out mouths just to change feet). It helps stop us from leaping before looking, so to speak. It's not that it's completely eliminated but gives us better control over it, at least.
>
> This is how I've heard it explained by the psychologist who tested me & it does seem to be true for me.
I've got bipolar and ADHD. Not *all* SSri meds help my ADHD. Only *two* seem to and they are Prozac anc Celexa. Zoloft, Luvox, and Paxil seemed to *fog* my head up worse. Yes, they all do help with impulsiveness. I can understand why Prozac probably helps my attentiveness (the NE reuptake inhibition), but I am bewildered as to why Celexa seems to help with one pecululiar but troubling attentional symptom I have: Being able to pick out ordinary and lyrical speech from people talking/music. If I am on the phone and someone has an accent I can hardly understand a thing otherwise. I especially notice it when I am listening to music and try to pick out the words to songs.Mitch
Posted by IsoM on January 12, 2002, at 17:26:35
In reply to Re: Serotonin manipulation useful for ADHD? » IsoM, posted by Mitch on January 12, 2002, at 11:33:36
> > > > >..but I am bewildered as to why Celexa seems to help with one pecululiar but troubling attentional symptom I have: Being able to pick out ordinary and lyrical speech from people talking/music. If I am on the phone and someone has an accent I can hardly understand a thing otherwise. I especially notice it when I am listening to music and try to pick out the words to songs.
Mitch************************************************************************************************
Celexa does that to you but not other meds?
I've always had that trouble but simply figured it was the way my ears/brain connection worked. If I want to know the words to a song, I download the lyrics from the net. If I want to figure out what's being said in a movie, I watch the video so I can back up & replay those (many) parts till I figure it out or ask someone else. Yet my hearing is excellent for single sounds, not blended. I can literally hear a pin drop in the next room despite the turmoil of ringing, humming, & buzzing that's always in my head.
Let me know if you ever learn more about that. I'm real curious.
Posted by Mitch on January 13, 2002, at 0:13:42
In reply to Re: Distingushing Sounds » Mitch, posted by IsoM on January 12, 2002, at 17:26:35
> > > > > >..but I am bewildered as to why Celexa seems to help with one pecululiar but troubling attentional symptom I have: Being able to pick out ordinary and lyrical speech from people talking/music. If I am on the phone and someone has an accent I can hardly understand a thing otherwise. I especially notice it when I am listening to music and try to pick out the words to songs.
> Mitch
>
> ************************************************************************************************
>
> Celexa does that to you but not other meds?
>
> I've always had that trouble but simply figured it was the way my ears/brain connection worked. If I want to know the words to a song, I download the lyrics from the net. If I want to figure out what's being said in a movie, I watch the video so I can back up & replay those (many) parts till I figure it out or ask someone else. Yet my hearing is excellent for single sounds, not blended. I can literally hear a pin drop in the next room despite the turmoil of ringing, humming, & buzzing that's always in my head.
>
> Let me know if you ever learn more about that. I'm real curious.When I was trying Adderall for my ADHD dx-it worked *dramatically* in enabling me to listen to music and understand the stories in the songs. It was a completely new phenomenon! It was like the transmit button was shrunk on a walkie-talkie and I was *forced* to do a lot more listening. But, Adderall has its sfx like other meds and it made me too edgy and uptight (but no mood cycling). I just happened to notice that with even tiny doses of Celexa I get the attentional improvement, but it isn't nowhere near as *global* as the Adderall, it just seems limited to human speech-I don't know why.
Mitch
Posted by petters on January 13, 2002, at 1:20:37
In reply to Re: Serotonin manipulation useful for ADHD? » IsoM, posted by Mitch on January 12, 2002, at 11:33:36
> > Raga, SSRIs are very effective at treating one aspect of ADHD & that's the impulsivness of a ADHD person. It serves to temper the impulsivness so one's less likely to blurt out the first thing that comes into their head (makes us think a little, most times, before we open out mouths just to change feet). It helps stop us from leaping before looking, so to speak. It's not that it's completely eliminated but gives us better control over it, at least.
> >
> > This is how I've heard it explained by the psychologist who tested me & it does seem to be true for me.
>
>
> I've got bipolar and ADHD. Not *all* SSri meds help my ADHD. Only *two* seem to and they are Prozac anc Celexa. Zoloft, Luvox, and Paxil seemed to *fog* my head up worse. Yes, they all do help with impulsiveness. I can understand why Prozac probably helps my attentiveness (the NE reuptake inhibition), but I am bewildered as to why Celexa seems to help with one pecululiar but troubling attentional symptom I have: Being able to pick out ordinary and lyrical speech from people talking/music. If I am on the phone and someone has an accent I can hardly understand a thing otherwise. I especially notice it when I am listening to music and try to pick out the words to songs.
>
> MitchHi...
Efexor can be very usefull for ADHD. Better than a pure ssri. There are som studies done in these areas, and the result was very positive. It´s effectives in both impulsiveness and attentiveness.
Best wishes...//Petters
Posted by Mitch on January 13, 2002, at 15:25:07
In reply to Re: Serotonin manipulation useful for ADHD?, posted by petters on January 13, 2002, at 1:20:37
> > > Raga, SSRIs are very effective at treating one aspect of ADHD & that's the impulsivness of a ADHD person. It serves to temper the impulsivness so one's less likely to blurt out the first thing that comes into their head (makes us think a little, most times, before we open out mouths just to change feet). It helps stop us from leaping before looking, so to speak. It's not that it's completely eliminated but gives us better control over it, at least.
> > >
> > > This is how I've heard it explained by the psychologist who tested me & it does seem to be true for me.
> >
> >
> > I've got bipolar and ADHD. Not *all* SSri meds help my ADHD. Only *two* seem to and they are Prozac anc Celexa. Zoloft, Luvox, and Paxil seemed to *fog* my head up worse. Yes, they all do help with impulsiveness. I can understand why Prozac probably helps my attentiveness (the NE reuptake inhibition), but I am bewildered as to why Celexa seems to help with one pecululiar but troubling attentional symptom I have: Being able to pick out ordinary and lyrical speech from people talking/music. If I am on the phone and someone has an accent I can hardly understand a thing otherwise. I especially notice it when I am listening to music and try to pick out the words to songs.
> >
> > Mitch
>
> Hi...
>
> Efexor can be very usefull for ADHD. Better than a pure ssri. There are som studies done in these areas, and the result was very positive. It´s effectives in both impulsiveness and attentiveness.
>
> Best wishes...//PettersThanks Petters, for that suggestion. Yes, I have tried Effexor and it *did* help (attention). But, it also triggered very intense hypomanias that were too destabilizing (even with very tiny doses-12.5mg, i.e.). Adderall didn't trigger any hypomania-it just made me too anxious. The tiny bit of Celexa I take is destabilizing as well, but the hypomanias are mild and more controllable. I REALLY wish I could get the attentional problems solved (like Adderall did) without getting anxious. I see my pdoc next week and I am going to bring up Provigil. Maybe I can guinea pig on that stuff and see what happens....
Mitch
Posted by petters on January 14, 2002, at 10:10:23
In reply to Re: Serotonin manipulation useful for ADHD? » petters, posted by Mitch on January 13, 2002, at 15:25:07
> > > > Raga, SSRIs are very effective at treating one aspect of ADHD & that's the impulsivness of a ADHD person. It serves to temper the impulsivness so one's less likely to blurt out the first thing that comes into their head (makes us think a little, most times, before we open out mouths just to change feet). It helps stop us from leaping before looking, so to speak. It's not that it's completely eliminated but gives us better control over it, at least.
> > > >
> > > > This is how I've heard it explained by the psychologist who tested me & it does seem to be true for me.
> > >
> > >
> > > I've got bipolar and ADHD. Not *all* SSri meds help my ADHD. Only *two* seem to and they are Prozac anc Celexa. Zoloft, Luvox, and Paxil seemed to *fog* my head up worse. Yes, they all do help with impulsiveness. I can understand why Prozac probably helps my attentiveness (the NE reuptake inhibition), but I am bewildered as to why Celexa seems to help with one pecululiar but troubling attentional symptom I have: Being able to pick out ordinary and lyrical speech from people talking/music. If I am on the phone and someone has an accent I can hardly understand a thing otherwise. I especially notice it when I am listening to music and try to pick out the words to songs.
> > >
> > > Mitch
> >
> > Hi...
> >
> > Efexor can be very usefull for ADHD. Better than a pure ssri. There are som studies done in these areas, and the result was very positive. It´s effectives in both impulsiveness and attentiveness.
> >
> > Best wishes...//Petters
>
> Thanks Petters, for that suggestion. Yes, I have tried Effexor and it *did* help (attention). But, it also triggered very intense hypomanias that were too destabilizing (even with very tiny doses-12.5mg, i.e.). Adderall didn't trigger any hypomania-it just made me too anxious. The tiny bit of Celexa I take is destabilizing as well, but the hypomanias are mild and more controllable. I REALLY wish I could get the attentional problems solved (like Adderall did) without getting anxious. I see my pdoc next week and I am going to bring up Provigil. Maybe I can guinea pig on that stuff and see what happens....
>
> Mitch
Hi Mitch...The hypomania you had on low dosages efexor, is probably because the dosage are to low. I know this sounds strange, but efexor in high dosage is is very stabilizing for the mood. It takes the the hypomania and depression as well makes you more attentiveness. Often you need 300 - 450 mg in this respect. Many mood swings that seems to be rapid cycling are in fact affective labiility and do respons on efexor.
Sorry for my spelling, but I am not from U.S
Best Wishes...//Petters
Posted by Mitch on January 14, 2002, at 13:13:39
In reply to Re: Serotonin manipulation useful for ADHD?, posted by petters on January 14, 2002, at 10:10:23
> > > > > Raga, SSRIs are very effective at treating one aspect of ADHD & that's the impulsivness of a ADHD person. It serves to temper the impulsivness so one's less likely to blurt out the first thing that comes into their head (makes us think a little, most times, before we open out mouths just to change feet). It helps stop us from leaping before looking, so to speak. It's not that it's completely eliminated but gives us better control over it, at least.
> > > > >
> > > > > This is how I've heard it explained by the psychologist who tested me & it does seem to be true for me.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I've got bipolar and ADHD. Not *all* SSri meds help my ADHD. Only *two* seem to and they are Prozac anc Celexa. Zoloft, Luvox, and Paxil seemed to *fog* my head up worse. Yes, they all do help with impulsiveness. I can understand why Prozac probably helps my attentiveness (the NE reuptake inhibition), but I am bewildered as to why Celexa seems to help with one pecululiar but troubling attentional symptom I have: Being able to pick out ordinary and lyrical speech from people talking/music. If I am on the phone and someone has an accent I can hardly understand a thing otherwise. I especially notice it when I am listening to music and try to pick out the words to songs.
> > > >
> > > > Mitch
> > >
> > > Hi...
> > >
> > > Efexor can be very usefull for ADHD. Better than a pure ssri. There are som studies done in these areas, and the result was very positive. It´s effectives in both impulsiveness and attentiveness.
> > >
> > > Best wishes...//Petters
> >
> > Thanks Petters, for that suggestion. Yes, I have tried Effexor and it *did* help (attention). But, it also triggered very intense hypomanias that were too destabilizing (even with very tiny doses-12.5mg, i.e.). Adderall didn't trigger any hypomania-it just made me too anxious. The tiny bit of Celexa I take is destabilizing as well, but the hypomanias are mild and more controllable. I REALLY wish I could get the attentional problems solved (like Adderall did) without getting anxious. I see my pdoc next week and I am going to bring up Provigil. Maybe I can guinea pig on that stuff and see what happens....
> >
> > Mitch
>
>
> Hi Mitch...
>
> The hypomania you had on low dosages efexor, is probably because the dosage are to low. I know this sounds strange, but efexor in high dosage is is very stabilizing for the mood. It takes the the hypomania and depression as well makes you more attentiveness. Often you need 300 - 450 mg in this respect. Many mood swings that seems to be rapid cycling are in fact affective labiility and do respons on efexor.
>
> Sorry for my spelling, but I am not from U.S
>
> Best Wishes...//PettersHi Petters, Yes that could be entirely possible for some with uncomplicated *unipolar* depression. The trouble is that I am *bipolar* and ALL antidepressants I have taken are destabilizing to some extent. Taking *more* historically has never helped with that. I actually had increased my Effexor for a short time up to 75mg/day and I became quite manic. Thanks for the advice, but increasing antidepressant use is *not* something I am going to be attempting any time soon.
Mitch
Posted by djmmm on January 15, 2002, at 16:43:58
In reply to Serotonin manipulation useful for ADHD? » CalvaryHill, posted by Raga on January 11, 2002, at 13:57:37
> > Serotonergic manipulation is useful for dysthymia, depression, OCD, PMDD, BDD, and even ADHD.
>
> CalvaryHill, just wondering what you know about treating ADHD with serotonergic manipulation. As far as I've heard, (and in my drugging experience), SSRIs and such are useless for relieving ADHD symptoms.Well...not exactly true....Serotonin is *Very* important....New research indicates that Ritalin, previously thought to only act on dopamine, actually acts on the serotonin system too.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/01/990120074604.htm
Posted by petters on January 16, 2002, at 1:13:16
In reply to Re: Serotonin manipulation useful for ADHD? » petters, posted by Mitch on January 14, 2002, at 13:13:39
> > > > > > Raga, SSRIs are very effective at treating one aspect of ADHD & that's the impulsivness of a ADHD person. It serves to temper the impulsivness so one's less likely to blurt out the first thing that comes into their head (makes us think a little, most times, before we open out mouths just to change feet). It helps stop us from leaping before looking, so to speak. It's not that it's completely eliminated but gives us better control over it, at least.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is how I've heard it explained by the psychologist who tested me & it does seem to be true for me.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I've got bipolar and ADHD. Not *all* SSri meds help my ADHD. Only *two* seem to and they are Prozac anc Celexa. Zoloft, Luvox, and Paxil seemed to *fog* my head up worse. Yes, they all do help with impulsiveness. I can understand why Prozac probably helps my attentiveness (the NE reuptake inhibition), but I am bewildered as to why Celexa seems to help with one pecululiar but troubling attentional symptom I have: Being able to pick out ordinary and lyrical speech from people talking/music. If I am on the phone and someone has an accent I can hardly understand a thing otherwise. I especially notice it when I am listening to music and try to pick out the words to songs.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mitch
> > > >
> > > > Hi...
> > > >
> > > > Efexor can be very usefull for ADHD. Better than a pure ssri. There are som studies done in these areas, and the result was very positive. It´s effectives in both impulsiveness and attentiveness.
> > > >
> > > > Best wishes...//Petters
> > >
> > > Thanks Petters, for that suggestion. Yes, I have tried Effexor and it *did* help (attention). But, it also triggered very intense hypomanias that were too destabilizing (even with very tiny doses-12.5mg, i.e.). Adderall didn't trigger any hypomania-it just made me too anxious. The tiny bit of Celexa I take is destabilizing as well, but the hypomanias are mild and more controllable. I REALLY wish I could get the attentional problems solved (like Adderall did) without getting anxious. I see my pdoc next week and I am going to bring up Provigil. Maybe I can guinea pig on that stuff and see what happens....
> > >
> > > Mitch
> >
> >
> > Hi Mitch...
> >
> > The hypomania you had on low dosages efexor, is probably because the dosage are to low. I know this sounds strange, but efexor in high dosage is is very stabilizing for the mood. It takes the the hypomania and depression as well makes you more attentiveness. Often you need 300 - 450 mg in this respect. Many mood swings that seems to be rapid cycling are in fact affective labiility and do respons on efexor.
> >
> > Sorry for my spelling, but I am not from U.S
> >
> > Best Wishes...//Petters
>
> Hi Petters, Yes that could be entirely possible for some with uncomplicated *unipolar* depression. The trouble is that I am *bipolar* and ALL antidepressants I have taken are destabilizing to some extent. Taking *more* historically has never helped with that. I actually had increased my Effexor for a short time up to 75mg/day and I became quite manic. Thanks for the advice, but increasing antidepressant use is *not* something I am going to be attempting any time soon.
>
> Mitch
Hi Mitch...I hope you don´t mind I´m asking, but are you bipolar 1 or 2 ?
Why don´t you add another mood stabilizar, such as Lamictal or Topamax, and than raise the efexor, and threat the ADHD well enough. By the way. Many pdoc means that ADHD and bipolar have an relationships, and often the ADHD sympoms getts mutch better when the bipolar disorders are proper threated.
Sometimes one need 3-4 moodstabilizer to treat the bipolar disorders.
Best Wishes...//Petters
Posted by 3 Beer Effect on January 16, 2002, at 11:10:10
In reply to Re: Serotonin manipulation useful for ADHD?, posted by djmmm on January 15, 2002, at 16:43:58
Posted by IsoM on January 16, 2002, at 12:09:50
In reply to wrong- most studies show SSRIs make ADHD worse!!!! (nm), posted by 3 Beer Effect on January 16, 2002, at 11:10:10
Posted by manowar on January 17, 2002, at 15:53:24
In reply to Re: Serotonin manipulation useful for ADHD?, posted by petters on January 16, 2002, at 1:13:16
Hi guys,
This is my opinion, which could be, and probably is wrong, but here goes:
ADHD (I like to call it ADD- because I think the H-which stands for hyperactivity--can be very misleading) is a very complex problem, just like depression is, and no two people (brains) are alike.
BTW: Amen believes that some depressions are not really depression, but Deep Limbic ADD.-- IT SURE SEEMS LIKE DEPRESSION TO ME, but I’m glad I learned this, because this distinction makes a HUGE DIFFERENCE in the treatment of the illness --(what ever you want to call it--for me-- I call it F***** up brain syndrome!) He also mentions something very interesting in his books. He says that the catecholamine neurotransmitters dopamine and serotonin seem to counterbalance each other. In other words if someone is taking an SSRI which increases serotonin, dopamine levels in the brain go down and vice-versa. I CERTAINLY BELIEVE THIS IS TRUE.
Dr. Amen (whom I think is a expert on the matter) distinguishes 6 different types of ADD. Some folks such as myself can have more than one subtype.
Here are the two that I have:
ADD Inattentive type- Sleep in class and bored all the time in youth. Sleep at work and bored all the time in adulthood.
-- Pstims are indicated for this subtype.Deep Limbic ADD-Just like depression, but not only is the deep limbic part of the brain overactive, the pre-frontal cortex (PFC) shuts down during concentration, which I think is a symptom of all ADD types. (I have a touch of the Deep Limbic ADD) -- Dopamine and Noradrenaline agents such as buprion (Wellbutrin), Modafinil (Provigil), or the dirty, dumb, Noradrenergic TCAs (do you’re best to avoid these-as far as I’m concerned) and stimulating MAOIs (never tried those- I like pepperoni pizza too much!) can be helpful for this subtype. SSRIs can be counterproductive.
These are the six types of ADD according to Dr. Amen:
BTW: I copied these from his website.1. AD/HD, combined type with both symptoms of inattention and hyperactivity-impulsivity. Brain SPECT imaging typically shows decreased activity in the basal ganglia and prefrontal cortex during a concentration task. This subtype of ADD typically responds best to psychostimulant medication.
2. AD/HD, primarily inattentive subtype with symptoms of inattention and also chronic boredom, decreased motivation, internal preoccupation and low energy. Brain SPECT imaging typically shows decreased activity in the basal ganglia and dorsal lateral prefrontal cortex during a concentration task. This subtype of ADD also typically responds best to psychostimulant medication.
(Right now I’m using Provigil)3. Over focused ADD, with symptoms of trouble shifting attention, cognitive inflexibility, difficulty with transitions, excessive worrying, and oppositional and argumentative behavior. There are often also symptoms of inattention and hyperactivity-impulsivity. Brain SPECT imaging typically shows increased activity in the anterior cingulate gyrus and decreased prefrontal cortex activity. This subtype typically responds best to medications that enhance both serotonin and dopamine availability in the brain, such as venlafaxine or a combination of an SSRI (such as fluoxetine or sertraline) and a psychostimulant.
4. Temporal lobe ADD, with symptoms of inattention and/or hyperactivity-impulsivity and mood instability, aggression, mild paranoia, anxiety with little provocation, atypical headaches or abdominal pain, visual or auditory illusions, and learning problems (especially reading and auditory processing). Brain SPECT imaging typically shows decreased or increased activity in the temporal lobes with decreased prefrontal cortex activity. Aggression tends to be more common with left temporal lobe abnormalities. This subtype typically responds best to anticonvulsant medications (such as gabapentin, divalproate, or carbamazepine and a psychostimulant.
5. Limbic ADD, with symptoms of inattention and/or hyperactivity-impulsivity and negativity, depression, sleep problems, low energy, low self-esteem, social isolation, decreased motivation and irritability. Brain SPECT imaging typically shows increased central limbic system activity and decreased prefrontal cortex activity. This subtype typically responds best to stimulating antidepressants such as buprion or imipramine, or venlafaxine if obsessive symptoms are present.
(I use buprion)6. Ring of Fire ADD - many of the children and teenagers who present with symptoms of ADD have the "ring of fire" pattern on SPECT. They often do not respond to psychostimulant medication and in many cases are made worse by them. They tend to improve with either anticonvulsant medications, like Depakote or Neurontin, or the new, novel antipsychotic medications such as Risperdal or Zyprexa. The symptoms of this pattern tend to be severe oppositional behavior, distractibility, irritability and temper problems and mood swings. We think it may represent an early bipolar pattern.
Get Healthy and good luck,
Tim
Posted by IsoM on January 17, 2002, at 17:24:55
In reply to SSRI FOR ADHD?-A BIG FAT NO (most of the time), posted by manowar on January 17, 2002, at 15:53:24
I'm not sure I agree with Dr. Amen's categories, but mostly because it doesn't fit me that well. Using his categories, I'd fit into these below, (I've removed those symptoms that don't apply to me).
1. AD/HD, combined type with both symptoms of inattention and hyperactivity-impulsivity.
3. Over focused ADD, with symptoms of trouble shifting attention & difficulty with transitions. I can be VERY hyperfocued at times. Through years of practice (I'm 52), I've learned to temper the argumentative behavior. If I can hold myself back from my first natural response, I'm fine. I just keep my mouth shut & think quietly to myself "That other person's an idiot."
4. Temporal lobe ADD - lots of visual, some auditory, & some olfactory illusions, and difficulty learning by auditory processing. Even with me paying special attention & asking leading questions to help me understand, I forget immediately. I always need to make notes if there's more than 2 or 3 oral points.
While I have trouble switching from one task to another, I can also multi-task very well. If I'm familiar with what I'm doing, I can often do three or four things at a time, but only if it's not requiring my full concentration. I can carry on a conversation but still listen to other's conversations around me, yet I process auditory signals into my memory poorly. Even if it's one single thing I'm listening to & trying very hard to remember. I have no trouble following & comprehending what's said, but can't remember it a few minutes later.
Anyway, for me, ADs helped me control what I say - the impulsiveness there. Some friends have fondly said I only open my mouth to change feet. :) I tend to blurt out the first thing that comes to mind. I was the kid who always answered out of term at school. Even as an adult, when I went back to university, I'd blurt out answers. My biology prof who was about my age & had some ADHD symptoms herself, used to smile, look at me, & say "I know you know the answers, Judy, but let the others answer too." Talk about feeling 8 years old again!
Posted by manowar on January 17, 2002, at 19:25:52
In reply to Re: Dr. Amen's Subcategories, posted by IsoM on January 17, 2002, at 17:24:55
> I'm not sure I agree with Dr. Amen's categories, but mostly because it doesn't fit me that well. Using his categories, I'd fit into these below, (I've removed those symptoms that don't apply to me).
>
> 1. AD/HD, combined type with both symptoms of inattention and hyperactivity-impulsivity.
>
> 3. Over focused ADD, with symptoms of trouble shifting attention & difficulty with transitions. I can be VERY hyperfocued at times. Through years of practice (I'm 52), I've learned to temper the argumentative behavior. If I can hold myself back from my first natural response, I'm fine. I just keep my mouth shut & think quietly to myself "That other person's an idiot."
>
> 4. Temporal lobe ADD - lots of visual, some auditory, & some olfactory illusions, and difficulty learning by auditory processing. Even with me paying special attention & asking leading questions to help me understand, I forget immediately. I always need to make notes if there's more than 2 or 3 oral points.
>
> While I have trouble switching from one task to another, I can also multi-task very well. If I'm familiar with what I'm doing, I can often do three or four things at a time, but only if it's not requiring my full concentration. I can carry on a conversation but still listen to other's conversations around me, yet I process auditory signals into my memory poorly. Even if it's one single thing I'm listening to & trying very hard to remember. I have no trouble following & comprehending what's said, but can't remember it a few minutes later.
>
> Anyway, for me, ADs helped me control what I say - the impulsiveness there. Some friends have fondly said I only open my mouth to change feet. :) I tend to blurt out the first thing that comes to mind. I was the kid who always answered out of term at school. Even as an adult, when I went back to university, I'd blurt out answers. My biology prof who was about my age & had some ADHD symptoms herself, used to smile, look at me, & say "I know you know the answers, Judy, but let the others answer too." Talk about feeling 8 years old again!Hey there,
I love my Modafinil, thank-you again for your help! I have found that the Modafinil not only makes me feel vigilant, paradoxically, it calms me. Quite a pstim. I guess it has something to do with its action on GABA and other Amino Neurotransmitters.Question: Has the Adrafinil helped you with your symptoms of ADD? Do you feel this calming effect like I do? I know its done wonders for your depression.
--Tim
Posted by IsoM on January 18, 2002, at 13:37:08
In reply to Re: Dr. Amen's Subcategories » IsoM, posted by manowar on January 17, 2002, at 19:25:52
Yes, Tim, adrafinil has helped my ADHD more than any other med yet. Here's a thorough breakdown of its effect on me as compared to other stims & with no stims, just regular SSRI. (I wrote this up in a table format previously to talk to some people I know.
DIFFERENCES BETWEEN OLMIFON (ADRAFINIL) AND DEXEDRINE AND/OR RITALIN
ADRAFINIL -appetite normal, food tastes good
DEXEDRINE -appetite reduced, but still hungry, food tastes okay only
WITHOUT ANY STIMS -hungry, but don’t feel like eating, food tastes okay only
**************************************************
ADRAFINIL -quiet, gentle, even motivation
DEXEDRINE -some motivation but short-term
WITHOUT ANY STIMS -no motivation at all
*************************************************
ADRAFINIL -calm, relaxed but bright alertness
DEXEDRINE -slightly jittery but bright alertness
WITHOUT ANY STIMS -slightly jittery, but trouble staying alert
************************************************
ADRAFINIL -good short-term & working memory
DEXEDRINE -still poor short-term & working memory
WITHOUT ANY STIMS -poor short-term & working memory
*************************************************
ADRAFINIL -focus is good & effortless
DEXEDRINE -focus is good but on everything at once, not selective
WITHOUT ANY STIMS -focus is poor
**************************************************
ADRAFINIL -can stay awake easily in daytime & fall asleep easily at night
DEXEDRINE -can stay awake when busy but can still sleep through dose too, no improved night sleep
WITHOUT ANY STIMS -always feel sleepy, poor night sleep
************************************************
ADRAFINIL -effects long-lasting & continuous
DEXEDRINE -effects wear off as dose wears off
WITHOUT ANY STIMS -n/a
**************************************************
ADRAFINIL -elevated mood & sociability
DEXEDRINE -elevated mood & sociability but maybe a little too hyper (don't know when to shut up)
WITHOUT ANY STIMS -ordinary mood, slightly down
************************************************
ADRAFINIL -no yawning or sleepiness
DEXEDRINE -no sleepiness but still yawn
WITHOUT ANY STIMS -very sleepy & lots of yawning
**************************************************
ADRAFINIL -ease of sticking to one task & doing it even if boring job (doesn’t seem so boring
DEXEDRINE -difficulty in sticking to just one task, want to jump around from one to another
WITHOUT ANY STIMS -difficulty in wanting to even do anything unless something or someone stimulates me
**************************************************
ADRAFINIL -feel much brighter & clear-headed
DEXEDRINE -feel much brighter but kind of scatter-brained
WITHOUT ANY STIMS -feel dopey & forgetful much of the time>
> Hey there,
> I love my Modafinil, thank-you again for your help! I have found that the Modafinil not only makes me feel vigilant, paradoxically, it calms me. Quite a pstim. I guess it has something to do with its action on GABA and other Amino Neurotransmitters.
>
> Question: Has the Adrafinil helped you with your symptoms of ADD? Do you feel this calming effect like I do? I know its done wonders for your depression.
>
> --Tim
Posted by manowar on January 18, 2002, at 16:26:35
In reply to Adrafinil's Effect On Me » manowar, posted by IsoM on January 18, 2002, at 13:37:08
Amazing, your experiences with the drugs are almost identical to mine. Good job on that table. I hope you don't mind, but I copied it so that I can give it to my pdoc-(I’ll say that I did it:):):)--just kidding—of course you’ll get the credit for your hard work.)
Though I never took Dexedrine that long, I've had Ritalin and Adderal.
Of the typical pstims, Ritalin is my favorite. The effects are the cleanest for me, but the elevation and the drops really suck. Therefore, let me further clarify and say that Concerta is my favorite of the typical pstims. Adderal helps, but can also cause agitation and frustration.Again: Modafinil wins hands down!
I had a few Adderal XR 30 mg left and a couple times I’ve experimented with adding that with my morning cocktail and Whoa, Nellie! It was like rocket fuel! I wasn't high or anything, but I could really think EXTREMILY well. However, I tend to get on people's nerves when I'm on a typical pstim--just like you. It's amazing how much we have in common.
The next time I see my pdoc, I'm going to ask for some Concerta; just for the times I need a little 'boost' in brainpower. But the Modafinil is quickly becoming my 'drug of choice'.
Tim
> Yes, Tim, adrafinil has helped my ADHD more than any other med yet. Here's a thorough breakdown of its effect on me as compared to other stims & with no stims, just regular SSRI. (I wrote this up in a table format previously to talk to some people I know.
>
> DIFFERENCES BETWEEN OLMIFON (ADRAFINIL) AND DEXEDRINE AND/OR RITALIN
>
> ADRAFINIL -appetite normal, food tastes good
> DEXEDRINE -appetite reduced, but still hungry, food tastes okay only
> WITHOUT ANY STIMS -hungry, but don’t feel like eating, food tastes okay only
> **************************************************
> ADRAFINIL -quiet, gentle, even motivation
> DEXEDRINE -some motivation but short-term
> WITHOUT ANY STIMS -no motivation at all
> *************************************************
> ADRAFINIL -calm, relaxed but bright alertness
> DEXEDRINE -slightly jittery but bright alertness
> WITHOUT ANY STIMS -slightly jittery, but trouble staying alert
> ************************************************
> ADRAFINIL -good short-term & working memory
> DEXEDRINE -still poor short-term & working memory
> WITHOUT ANY STIMS -poor short-term & working memory
> *************************************************
> ADRAFINIL -focus is good & effortless
> DEXEDRINE -focus is good but on everything at once, not selective
> WITHOUT ANY STIMS -focus is poor
> **************************************************
> ADRAFINIL -can stay awake easily in daytime & fall asleep easily at night
> DEXEDRINE -can stay awake when busy but can still sleep through dose too, no improved night sleep
> WITHOUT ANY STIMS -always feel sleepy, poor night sleep
> ************************************************
> ADRAFINIL -effects long-lasting & continuous
> DEXEDRINE -effects wear off as dose wears off
> WITHOUT ANY STIMS -n/a
> **************************************************
> ADRAFINIL -elevated mood & sociability
> DEXEDRINE -elevated mood & sociability but maybe a little too hyper (don't know when to shut up)
> WITHOUT ANY STIMS -ordinary mood, slightly down
> ************************************************
> ADRAFINIL -no yawning or sleepiness
> DEXEDRINE -no sleepiness but still yawn
> WITHOUT ANY STIMS -very sleepy & lots of yawning
> **************************************************
> ADRAFINIL -ease of sticking to one task & doing it even if boring job (doesn’t seem so boring
> DEXEDRINE -difficulty in sticking to just one task, want to jump around from one to another
> WITHOUT ANY STIMS -difficulty in wanting to even do anything unless something or someone stimulates me
> **************************************************
> ADRAFINIL -feel much brighter & clear-headed
> DEXEDRINE -feel much brighter but kind of scatter-brained
> WITHOUT ANY STIMS -feel dopey & forgetful much of the time
>
>
>
> >
> > Hey there,
> > I love my Modafinil, thank-you again for your help! I have found that the Modafinil not only makes me feel vigilant, paradoxically, it calms me. Quite a pstim. I guess it has something to do with its action on GABA and other Amino Neurotransmitters.
> >
> > Question: Has the Adrafinil helped you with your symptoms of ADD? Do you feel this calming effect like I do? I know its done wonders for your depression.
> >
> > --Tim
Posted by IsoM on January 18, 2002, at 17:03:33
In reply to Re: Adrafinil's Effect On Me » IsoM, posted by manowar on January 18, 2002, at 16:26:35
Actually, the chart I drew up was in Word & I used a proper table, but had to change it about to fit this forum.
If I could be mentally stimulated all the time by other's input & ideas, stims wouldn't be necessary for that part. But I can't have people following me about helping (or I would just be bursting with ideas but never get any work done - I've always wanted a job where I could be in some sort of "think tank". My ideas aren't manic either, but very well-grounded & practical. Others say I'm very practical yet creative. My resumé includes "innovative ideas & practical solutions".)
But then I really do need something to keep awake. And memory improvement & focus are sure nice to have.
Anyway, I ordered a bunch of adrafinil that just came in today. It's for a few others who have similar problems to me that want to try it too. I noticed the price on the package - the equivalent Canadian to $9.71 per package (40 tabs). And with shipping & handling, I pay $37.00 per package! One friend that just picked it up said he's got a cousin in France, so we're going to go through her instead. What a savings that will make. Now I won't go broke just to stay awake!
I'm really glad to hear it works as well for you as it does for me. I do wonder though why some people notice an immediate reaction to it & why it then poops out. I wonder if a longer trial at a lower dose would help them?
> Amazing, your experiences with the drugs are almost identical to mine. Good job on that table. I hope you don't mind, but I copied it so that I can give it to my pdoc-(I’ll say that I did it:):):)--just kidding—of course you’ll get the credit for your hard work.)
>
> Though I never took Dexedrine that long, I've had Ritalin and Adderal.
> Of the typical pstims, Ritalin is my favorite. The effects are the cleanest for me, but the elevation and the drops really suck. Therefore, let me further clarify and say that Concerta is my favorite of the typical pstims. Adderal helps, but can also cause agitation and frustration.
>
> Again: Modafinil wins hands down!
>
> I had a few Adderal XR 30 mg left and a couple times I’ve experimented with adding that with my morning cocktail and Whoa, Nellie! It was like rocket fuel! I wasn't high or anything, but I could really think EXTREMILY well. However, I tend to get on people's nerves when I'm on a typical pstim--just like you. It's amazing how much we have in common.
>
> The next time I see my pdoc, I'm going to ask for some Concerta; just for the times I need a little 'boost' in brainpower. But the Modafinil is quickly becoming my 'drug of choice'.
>
> Tim
Posted by nightlight on January 19, 2002, at 12:27:08
In reply to Re: The Price of Adrafinil » manowar, posted by IsoM on January 18, 2002, at 17:03:33
> Actually, the chart I drew up was in Word & I used a proper table, but had to change it about to fit this forum.
>
> If I could be mentally stimulated all the time by other's input & ideas, stims wouldn't be necessary for that part. But I can't have people following me about helping (or I would just be bursting with ideas but never get any work done - I've always wanted a job where I could be in some sort of "think tank". My ideas aren't manic either, but very well-grounded & practical. Others say I'm very practical yet creative.Hi Iso~
Always find ur posts interesting & informative! So glad u are here. (How did u happen upon this forum, by the way?)
Another question: did I read somewhere that you felt you might have some underlying narcoleptic features in ur profile?
I was finally dx'd with ADD recently. I've been struggling with how to cope with 'life', be normal, fight depression and confusion for decades.
I have also been consistently 'sleepy', bored, easily fatigued 'mentally' throughout my highschool yrs. and beyond. I always felt like if I cd. just get enuf sleep, or the perfect 2-hr. nap, my fuzzy head wd. clear, & I'd be OK--(NOT!)
I can sleep 12-16 hours a day, no problem (well, it's really a terrible problem). I have always been a vivid dreamer, talk, laugh and carry on (even sing) while sleeping (even w/no drugs in my system). I've also carried on conversations w/friends/family (while in person or on the phone) and done my fair share of sleepwalking.
I am now, finally, seeing a therapist and a shrink, both of whom I like. After 10 weeks, I am currently taking 60mgs. Adderall a.m. and 60mgs. after lunch. I am slowly titrating up on Effexor. Will start 112.5 today. Only discomfort from EFF. is a little nausea, so I have a bedtime snack w/milk and take my birth control and EFF. at that time.
Your comments on Adrafinil as opposed to reg. pstims is intriguing. The past 2 years have been sheer hell, and my untreated (A_D's didn't work) depression + caring for an ill parent and a young child, have left me with SO MUCH to address and rectify, that, even tho I am much improved, I still am having a lot of trouble prioritizing and initiating/finishing tasks.
But, at least, my major depression of late summer, early fall has diminished greatly, and, with the help of the Adderall, I can get out of bed, stay clean, wash my hair and look presentable, work a little part-time, and believe there may be hope for me and my family's future.
> My resumé includes "innovative ideas & practical solutions".)
>
> But then I really do need something to keep awake. And memory improvement & focus are sure nice to have.
Great presentation of your strengths in your resume.I want to 'really' work again, but it is reall y gonna take a while for me to get organized. We are supposed to be moving out of Mom's house this week (she passed away last spring) aand I am just a bit intimidated, to make a serious understatement). Both of my organized siblings live out of state, and are at the breaking point when it comes to us vacating this abode, so it can be sold. I have been quite ill over the past few months and accomplished little. (I was doing well to keep my kid clean, fed and cared for). But beyond that, I finally succumbed to the depression (which I've had for years), physical ills, & grief (from 2 perfectly womderful parents dying within 14 months & sleeping in a recliner for a year watching my sweet mother succumb to Alzheimer's, dementia and death-it was actually not as prolonged as it might have been, and I really feel blessed to have been able to care for her. I got to know her better than I ever had, the dementia lowered her usual emotional/personal restraint, And I was holding her hand when she passed. I would have been thrust into an even worse dep., I think, if I had not been able to be there for her.I am aware that my Adderall dose is high (by PDR standards), but I tolerate it well, and it does not cause appetite suppression or insomnia. Like you on dexedrine, I can nap (still need those naps to feel 'human' in the evenings!)and usually must, due to extremely low 'mental'vigor. I am hoping the Eff. might be effective. There's probably no way a person cd. rely on stims alone for consistent, long-term depression relief.
And, I think, I am just now beginning to feel very slightly, subtly happier (wow!) with the EFF., not ruminating quite so much on death and loss. Those *happy* moments are brief, but so welcome.nightlight
ps-are you in the states? Are the short, dark days wearing on you? My 5 yr-old and I have so little 'yard time' during the week-I am so glad the days are 'on the wax', even tho it's a little difficult to tell yet. At least I'm in the deep south, near the gulf coast, and the temps aren't too miserable-but as I age,(I'll be 46 in 2 mos.) I find far more hope and comfort in the sunshine.
I love raking, pruning, mowing, digging in the dirt-it's my only real exercise and, done somewhat moderately, helps the aches & pains of fibro, mps & herniated discs, not to mention that I am the least depressed when outside talking to squirrels & trees, rather than people! (When I was younger, I preferred the dark moodiness of the clouds and rain-good for reading & sleeping).
> Anyway, I ordered a bunch of adrafinil that just came in today. It's for a few others who have similar problems to me that want to try it too. I noticed the price on the package - the equivalent Canadian to $9.71 per package (40 tabs). And with shipping & handling, I pay $37.00 per package! One friend that just picked it up said he's got a cousin in France, so we're going to go through her instead. What a savings that will make. Now I won't go broke just to stay awake!
>
> I'm really glad to hear it works as well for you as it does for me. I do wonder though why some people notice an immediate reaction to it & why it then poops out. I wonder if a longer trial at a lower dose would help them?
>
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