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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dime on January 10, 2002, at 17:19:56
Anybody out there switched from Dexedrine to Ritalin (or vice versa)? I (40 y/o M) have been on Dex for about five years and every two years or so have had to increase the dose. Its getting on time to do it again, but I wonder if I might counteract tolerance with the Dex by switching to Ritalin (or if, since they're both CNS stimulants, the tolerance would just 'cross over').
I'd also love to hear from folks with experience of more than a month or so with both these meds (for ADD). Which did you prefer? Is there something better?
Posted by fachad on January 10, 2002, at 20:47:29
In reply to Dexedrine vs Ritalin for Adult ADD, posted by Dime on January 10, 2002, at 17:19:56
Well, I took Ritalin (54mg/day) for about 7 yrs, and I just switched to Adderall (30mg/day). Adderall includes dex and other salts of amphetamines.
My question "How much Adderall do you take" was from my pdoc telling me that Adderall and Dex were twice as potent as Ritalin.
I don't know, but 30mg of Adderall doesn’t seem to me to be as much as 54 mg of Ritalin (as Concerta)
Like you, I'm also wondering if my Ritalin tolerance transferred to Adderall.
If you do switch to Ritalin, I would highly recommend Concerta because regular immediate release Ritalin is very roller coaster both in coming on strong and wearing off strong. Both feelings were very disphoric to me.
> Anybody out there switched from Dexedrine to Ritalin (or vice versa)? I (40 y/o M) have been on Dex for about five years and every two years or so have had to increase the dose. Its getting on time to do it again, but I wonder if I might counteract tolerance with the Dex by switching to Ritalin (or if, since they're both CNS stimulants, the tolerance would just 'cross over').
>
> I'd also love to hear from folks with experience of more than a month or so with both these meds (for ADD). Which did you prefer? Is there something better?
Posted by Hattree on January 11, 2002, at 8:09:21
In reply to Re: Dexedrine vs Ritalin for Adult ADD, posted by fachad on January 10, 2002, at 20:47:29
I find switching stimulants somewhat helpful in evading the tolerance effect, but not as much as taking a "holiday"
> Well, I took Ritalin (54mg/day) for about 7 yrs, and I just switched to Adderall (30mg/day). Adderall includes dex and other salts of amphetamines.
>
> My question "How much Adderall do you take" was from my pdoc telling me that Adderall and Dex were twice as potent as Ritalin.
>
> I don't know, but 30mg of Adderall doesn’t seem to me to be as much as 54 mg of Ritalin (as Concerta)
>
> Like you, I'm also wondering if my Ritalin tolerance transferred to Adderall.
>
> If you do switch to Ritalin, I would highly recommend Concerta because regular immediate release Ritalin is very roller coaster both in coming on strong and wearing off strong. Both feelings were very disphoric to me.
>
>
>
> > Anybody out there switched from Dexedrine to Ritalin (or vice versa)? I (40 y/o M) have been on Dex for about five years and every two years or so have had to increase the dose. Its getting on time to do it again, but I wonder if I might counteract tolerance with the Dex by switching to Ritalin (or if, since they're both CNS stimulants, the tolerance would just 'cross over').
> >
> > I'd also love to hear from folks with experience of more than a month or so with both these meds (for ADD). Which did you prefer? Is there something better?
Posted by Rakken on January 13, 2002, at 18:40:09
In reply to Re: Dexedrine vs Ritalin for Adult ADD, posted by Hattree on January 11, 2002, at 8:09:21
When I was on Concerta I found it to be very racy. I later was put on Dexedrine and am now on Adderall. The Dexedrine and Adderall were much smoother than the ritalin even with Concerta's delayed release. I'm not sure about the cross tolerance thing. The Concerta will wake someone up and get them going a lot faster. But I know of instances where the amphetamines just work better and more comfortably than ritalin. And some instances where the ritalin is better. Depends on the person I suppose.
Posted by Fuddman on September 27, 2002, at 14:30:43
In reply to Re: Dexedrine vs Ritalin for Adult ADD, posted by Hattree on January 11, 2002, at 8:09:21
I have read a lot about similar effects. The reason that the ritalin has lost it's effectiveness is becuase you're brain is constantly sending out large amounts of dopamine and eventually they get depleted. I do have a suggestion, try not taking the ritalin or dexedrine for a week. Then after a week take a really small dosage. Work your way up to the level that you think is necessary. However I must warn you, do not take more than your doctor has prescribed to you because it will cause an even greater depletion of nuerotransmitters in your brain, and will only amplify the problem that you are having right now. Also there are some things that you can eat that will help raise the level of dopamine in your brain. dopamine is a chemical that is produced in your brain by an amino acid called l-phenylaline. so try and eat more meats and dairy which contain this amino acid. Also I have been searching the internet for more ADD solutions. And I found this product named Becalm'd, it contains all the amino acids that are needed to produce the right neurotransmitters in your brain. I don't know how much this will help you, but hopefully it is a start. Good luck.
Posted by tancu on September 28, 2002, at 23:38:50
In reply to Re: Dexedrine vs Ritalin for Adult ADD, posted by Fuddman on September 27, 2002, at 14:30:43
In reply to Fuddman, it is misleading to suggest that ritalin causes the brain to "constantly" send out "large amounts of dopamine and eventually they get depleted". In order for ritalin to have this effect one would have to "constantly" take it. Of course, "over-dosing" in this manner would have grave effects--brain damage--and probably something akin to amphetamine psychosis, atypical or drug-induced parkinsonism, etc. In fact, the current "theory" is that ritalin (and amphetamines) either stimulates the release of dopamine and serotonin or it blocks the re-uptake of dopamine and serotonin, or it does both. Taken as prescribed, however, the effect of each dose would begin at 15-30 minutes and typically peak at 90-120 minutes, and the effects would last about 2.5-4 hours. So, if you're taking 3 doses/day, that leaves about 12 hours during each day when the ritalin is not "active". It seems logical, then, that during this twelve hour period the body would have ample time to synthesize more neurotransmitters in order to maintain a healthy balance. The medical community would not prescribe any medicine that haphazardly depletes the brain of neurotransmitters. I also want to point out that dopamine is synthesized by the body from the amino-acid "tyrosine" (not from "l-phenylaline"). The brain is not the sole source of dopamine. It is also produced by the adrenal-glands--located on the kidneys. Finally, there is no evidence to indicate that simply "increasing" one's intake of meats and dairy products will lead to an increase of dopamine in the brain. Currently, the only way of actually measuring the levels of neurotransmitters in a "living" brain is to measure the amount of their broken down remnants taken from cerebro-spinal fluid--a crude measure at best.
Posted by tancu on September 29, 2002, at 1:47:26
In reply to Dexedrine vs Ritalin for Adult ADD, posted by Dime on January 10, 2002, at 17:19:56
For nearly two yrs I've mainly been taking adderall--to combat the fatigue from idiopathic parkinson's disease. Actually, my neurologist started me on ritalin, then let me try adderall (mixed amphetamine salts) to see which one I prefer. The adderall seems to work best, but I take it for different reasons than someone with ADDH would take it. One month I did switch back to ritalin in order to take a break from the adderall--which seemed to be loosing some of it's effectiveness. Doing so did make me appreciate the adderall even more. I find that ritalin is more subtle, more cerebral, whereas the amphetamine lasts longer and is more peripherial--it has more of a "physical" boost compared to the more "mental" boost of ritalin. Of course, the more "cerebral" effect of ritalin may be exactly what you need, but then, none of us react to these meds in exactly the same way. I believe that a good doctor would be very willing to allow you to switch, on occasion, for the very reason that you have mentioned--to "counteract" or diminish your level of tolerance. You obviously can't periodically increase your dose indefinitely. With your doc's approval and guidance you may even consider taking no stimulants at all for a short period of time. This "drug-holiday" is not exactly an uncommon practise for various med treatments, although I don't know if it would apply to your situation. Speak to your doc about your concerns in the same fashion that you have addressed them here.
Posted by utopizen on September 29, 2002, at 11:43:26
In reply to Re: Dexedrine vs Ritalin for Adult ADD, posted by tancu on September 29, 2002, at 1:47:26
On Dexedrine, I finally feel calm (10mg) but I get hand tremors so bad I can't even type this message quickly... and my heart's beating like a gerbil.
Maybe I should go back to ritalin, and rough out the anxiety.
Posted by Seamus2 on September 29, 2002, at 12:31:49
In reply to Dexedrine: brain calm, heart isn't, posted by utopizen on September 29, 2002, at 11:43:26
Or add a beta-blocker to your regime. Ask your doc.
Posted by utopizen on September 29, 2002, at 14:23:56
In reply to Re: Dexedrine: brain calm, heart isn't, posted by Seamus2 on September 29, 2002, at 12:31:49
> Or add a beta-blocker to your regime. Ask your doc.
thanks for the advice- I actually happened to remember had had some left over Propananol back when I was trying it out for anxiety.
Posted by Hattree on October 7, 2002, at 9:28:44
In reply to Re: Dexedrine: brain calm, heart isn't, posted by utopizen on September 29, 2002, at 14:23:56
Did the beta blocker help?
Posted by utopizen on October 7, 2002, at 10:30:55
In reply to Re: Dexedrine: brain calm, heart isn't » utopizen, posted by Hattree on October 7, 2002, at 9:28:44
> Did the beta blocker help?
yeah, it fixed the problem.
But I couldn't take Salagen
with it (don't feel like chancing
heart arithmia) for my dry mouth
with it.So my doctor switched me to
Desoxyn, which has no side effects.I've got a little nausea when I
tried to up the dose by one pill
more (5mg doesn't seem to give
me effect) but I'll trial it out for
a week I suppose, and see if
it works out... after the
first week, you're suppose
to be able to up the dose
to the therapeutic amount
b/c the body's use to it by
then.Unfortunately there appears
to have research only
on illicit methamphetamine
abuse, and not Desoxyn.
Neurotoxicity at therapeutic
doses is unknown, but
at least it's comforting to know
it's been in use since 1944.Narcoleptics have used it
straight on for decades.
That appears to be the most
comfortable indication doctors
give it for, followed by ADD
in individuals who are treatment-resistant
to other stimulants and are
NOT ones with abuse history.It's a serious drug that deserves
respect- I'm not taking more than
5mg/day for this week. And when I
take multiple dosing, I'm not
taking it when it wears off until
it's out of my system-- unlike
Ritalin, which is common
for patients to be told to
take a bit when the drug makes
people feel down for a bit.
Posted by Seamus2 on October 7, 2002, at 21:16:38
In reply to Re: Dexedrine: brain calm, heart isn't, posted by utopizen on October 7, 2002, at 10:30:55
Do you have an idea of dosage equivalence between Desoxsyn and Dexedrine yet?
10 mg Dex = 5 mg Desoxsyn?
And are the pills scored (which brand, too!)
I'm pretty happy with half a 5 mg dexedrine tablet; but wonder if I could eke out such a small dose with the desoxsyn.
Posted by utopizen on October 8, 2002, at 0:02:50
In reply to Re: Dexedrine: brain calm, heart isn't » utopizen, posted by Seamus2 on October 7, 2002, at 21:16:38
They're not scored- they seem too small to be (like little dots). But company literature says you can cut them into two 2.5mg pills
I've heard it's similar to, or equivelent, to dexedrine dosing. Only Abbot makes it. And one CVS told me their safe was too full, so he didn't want to order them. But a Walgreens had them on supply and told me they always would. A pharmacist there told me she sees it filled once maybe every few months.
> Do you have an idea of dosage equivalence between Desoxsyn and Dexedrine yet?
>
> 10 mg Dex = 5 mg Desoxsyn?
>
> And are the pills scored (which brand, too!)
>
> I'm pretty happy with half a 5 mg dexedrine tablet; but wonder if I could eke out such a small dose with the desoxsyn.
Posted by Seamus2 on October 8, 2002, at 20:36:28
In reply to Re: Dexedrine: brain calm, heart isn't, posted by utopizen on October 8, 2002, at 0:02:50
Thanks! I'd love to hear a progress report once you're stable.
Seamus
Posted by Leor on October 10, 2002, at 11:22:45
In reply to Re: Dexedrine vs Ritalin for Adult ADD, posted by Hattree on January 11, 2002, at 8:09:21
I am great believer in the need for periodic drug holidays from dexedrine. I am in the habit of taking off one week from treatment with my Dexedrine XR every three months. Not being a neurophysiologist I cannot offer an explanation for what happens to me except to note subjective results;
1 - a feeling of increased calm when I return to taking the dexedrine
2 - being off provides an opportunity to assess how the dexedrine affects my cognitive functioning
(I always learn new details which empower me to better assess where my dosage should be pegged and what Side-effects and-or positive effects can be properly attributed to my use of the dexedrine).3 - it is a safeguard against my developing tolerance to the medication, and so allows me to avoid unnecessary increases in my dose.
BTW, I seem to remember other good posts on Babble about drug holidaying. Be sure to use your own educated guesswork & consultation with your p-doc when decide how long the holiday should last.
Best of luck,
Leor
> I find switching stimulants somewhat helpful in evading the tolerance effect, but not as much as taking a "holiday"
>
> > Well, I took Ritalin (54mg/day) for about 7 yrs, and I just switched to Adderall (30mg/day). Adderall includes dex and other salts of amphetamines.
> >
> > My question "How much Adderall do you take" was from my pdoc telling me that Adderall and Dex were twice as potent as Ritalin.
> >
> > I don't know, but 30mg of Adderall doesn’t seem to me to be as much as 54 mg of Ritalin (as Concerta)
> >
> > Like you, I'm also wondering if my Ritalin tolerance transferred to Adderall.
> >
> > If you do switch to Ritalin, I would highly recommend Concerta because regular immediate release Ritalin is very roller coaster both in coming on strong and wearing off strong. Both feelings were very disphoric to me.
> >
> >
> >
> > > Anybody out there switched from Dexedrine to Ritalin (or vice versa)? I (40 y/o M) have been on Dex for about five years and every two years or so have had to increase the dose. Its getting on time to do it again, but I wonder if I might counteract tolerance with the Dex by switching to Ritalin (or if, since they're both CNS stimulants, the tolerance would just 'cross over').
> > >
> > > I'd also love to hear from folks with experience of more than a month or so with both these meds (for ADD). Which did you prefer? Is there something better?
>
>
This is the end of the thread.
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