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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 4 of 4. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Susan47 on December 20, 2005, at 12:31:12
I've made is that the universe is logical.
Okay, it's not fair. Fair is a human concept. But logic .. everything has a ogic.
Everything that happens, everything we call fate, everything we refer to as God, all the ways that we are, the ways we behave, the ways we started and the way we'll end ...
all of it is logical.
All of it has reason behind it.
Reason.
It's true.
Reason does order the universe.
I know it, as much as I know anything.
My own existence.
As much as I know that, I also know this thing.
Posted by Susan47 on January 3, 2006, at 20:27:55
In reply to A Discovery, posted by Susan47 on December 20, 2005, at 12:31:12
what does Reason come from though? I mean, reason is "The guiding principle of the human mind in the process of thinking" but obviously the everything I was referring to isn't just a process of thinking .. or is it? Is everything we're thinking .. our invention? So we can order it the way we like? Do we order it? Well, yes we do to a huge extent but natural laws .. what are they? Is there a conscious that reasons them into being.. without natural laws chaos would be the order of the universe, and what would that look like? What orders our logic, I mean, what's the logic? Hello, hello? Can you apply reason to the universe? Reason is also "A faculty transcending understanding by which first principles are grasped a priori" .. what does that mean? Help I'm lost, I'm totally lost, what does it mean? I know there's this law of physics that states every action has a reaction or something like that ... maybe physics is the order. Maybe that's what I'm talking about. Maybe all of life is just a huge physics lesson.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 3, 2006, at 22:10:23
In reply to Okay, well, hey Alexandra over here I need you, posted by Susan47 on January 3, 2006, at 20:27:55
I shall try...
> the universe is logical.
What do you mean by 'logical'?
Do you mean it is understandable (that you can understand it. why things happen. why it is the way that it is etc)?> Okay, it's not fair. Fair is a human concept. But logic ..
'Logic' (in the philosophers sense) is the study of rational thought.
More in particular... Lets take a thought...
'the sun is hot and the sky is blue'
If that statement is true then it rationally / logically follows that it must be true that 'the sun is hot'.
If that statement is true then it rationally / logically follows that it must be true that 'the sky is blue'.
If that statement is true then it rationally / logically follows that it CANNOT BE THE CASE that 'the sky is not blue'.
If that statement is true then it rationally / logically follows that it CANNOT BE THE CASE that 'the sun is not hot'.If it rationally / logically follows then someone who believes the statement is true... Would be rational to endorse the statements that logically follow... And they would be irrational to deny the statements that logically follow...
And... You can do the same thing for if the statement is false... etc... and thus logic is the study of what thoughts follow rationally from what other thoughts (without contradiction)
To say the universe is logical...
Well...
I think 'logical' might be a relational property between thoughts and / or statements rather than a property of the world.
Though... The statement 'the sky is blue and the sky is not blue' describes a state of affairs (in the world) which is LOGICALLY IMPOSSIBLE (ie cannot be the case).So I guess that... Yes... The universe is logical. In fact... It cannot be otherwise. Contradictory (illogical) states of affairs are IMPOSSIBLE (they CANNOT be the case)
But...
That misses the point of what you were trying to say methinks...
> All of it has reason behind it.
Do you mean...
There is a purpose for the world.
There is a reason for its existence.
?
That that purpose is logically prior to human beings. That that purpose is given by god or some super-natural being (a being that transcends or lies beyond the natural world)?I think...
That the only 'purpose' or 'reason' for the existence of the world...
Is one that we assign to it.There is no telos / intentionality / reason / purpose that is independent from mind...
> what does Reason come from though? I mean, reason is "The guiding principle of the human mind in the process of thinking" but obviously the everything I was referring to isn't just a process of thinking .. or is it?
I'm thnking they mean a different thing by 'reason' than what you mean by 'reason'...
They are thinking of rational thought (thought that follows the laws of logic)
And you are thinking of natural phenomena (and perhaps the universe as a whole) being comprehensible to us human beings. The universe as a whole... Having a purpose. A reason for its existence.> Is everything we're thinking .. our invention?
Some thoughts may be caused by mind independent reality... So ones belief / thought that 'the sun is hot' might well be caused (directly or indirectly) by the sun being hot...
> So we can order it the way we like?
Maybe we can... But if truth is the aim...
> natural laws .. what are they?
Laws of nature are what scientists are supposed to be working to discover.... so... laws of motion etc... Newtons physics was based on three laws (and then i think there was a fourth) you can use those laws... to predict the behaviour of physical objects... if i drop you off a tall building then the law of gravity... predicts that it will be the case that you will fall to the earth at wahtever speed... it is NATURALLY NECESSARY that that be the case (in any world that has the same laws of nature as ours then that must be the case). But it is not LOGICALLY NECESSARY that the laws of nature be what they are... Thus it is not logically necessary that you fall to the earth. surely it is logically possible that you could flap your arms and fly like a bird... there is no contradiction in the notion... we can surely conceive of it happening...
> Is there a conscious that reasons them into being..
did god make up the laws of nature?
> without natural laws chaos would be the order of the universe,
yeah. we wouldn't be able to make predictions or offer legitimate explanations... there wouldn't be any order or sense... in fact... we most probably could not exist in such a universe... because our hearts etc wouldn't beat regularly. and hearts wouldn't have any connection to the pumping of blood... and pumping of blood wouldn't have any connection to us getting oxygen... and getting oxygen wouldn't have any connection to our survival etc etc.
> What orders our logic,
i don't know...
all human beings are capable of grasping the laws of logic when they are expressed simply in their natural language. unless... they are very severely brain damaged. they are universal... all people... all cultures... all times... all places... is it possible that there could be beings with a radically different logic... perhaps... but we could not understand them...> Can you apply reason to the universe?
I don't think so...
I think it might be like...
applying truth to the universe...
only statements / thoughts can be true / false...
and only statements / thoughts (and possibly emotions and behaviours) can be rational / irrational...but i think i am missing the point...
> Reason is also "A faculty transcending understanding by which first principles are grasped a priori" .. what does that mean?
okay...
i'm not too sure... but i think maybe what they mean is that...
'a faculty transcending understanding'
well... reason just IS our faculty of understanding. and thus... if we use our faculty of understanding to try and understand the limits of our understanding... there are problems in that... we can't get outside (understand what lies beyond our understanding) by definition...i think the same point can be expressed...
if you have a system / theory
then you cannot deduce / prove all the truths of the system / theory
from within the system / theorysomebody or other offered a proof of that...
but that probably doesn't make much sense...
'from which the first principles are grasped a-priori'.
well.. here is a good example of a 'first principle' which can be grasped 'a-priori'.
cogito ergo sum.
roughly translates as 'cognition therfore existence'
'cognition' covers thoughts, feelings, mental pictures etc etc (any conscious experience)if you attempt to doubt that you are thinking / cognising...
well... you are doubting...
and then given that doubting is a form of thinking / cognising...
one sees that one cannot doubt that one is thinking because doubting is a form of thinkingand try as you might you cannot doubt that you are thinking...
and thus you know there is thinking going on
you know beyond any possible doubt that you exist as a thinking thing...and thus 'i am, i exist' is a first principle that it is LOGICALLY IMPOSSIBLE to doubt.
and... we don't need any experience of the world (a-posteriori evidence) to know this... we can know this from reason or thought alone (hence it is an a-priori truth - a truth that is prior to experience of the world)...
Posted by alexandra_k on January 3, 2006, at 22:15:52
In reply to Re: » Susan47, posted by alexandra_k on January 3, 2006, at 22:10:23
purpose
why does the universe exist?
this is thought to be...
a question without an answer.
wittgenstein thought that it was a question that could never be answered.
like 'why is there something that it is like to be me'
he thought that was a question that could never be answered as well.
reason
purpose
for existence...if you have certain goals...
then there can be reason / purpose.
if your aim is survival / reproduction
if your aim is to seek pleasure and to avoid painthen there are reasons
and then...
the purpose of my doing x can be explained by recourse to my achieving the aim.so...
people say the 'function' (purpose) of the heart is to pump blood...
but it gets its function because we have the aim of continued existence...
why do we have that aim?
without it...
we would not exist.and maybe that is all that can be said...
i don't know.
This is the end of the thread.
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