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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by alexandra_k on March 28, 2005, at 3:34:45
(viii) Gestalt Switches and Change in Perspective
The problem of how we should conceive of alters can thus be recast as the problem as to whether we should adopt a single or multiple systems interpretation of a given subject’s behaviour. While the reality constraints would seem to dictate that the single systems stance is appropriate for the prediction and explanation of the behaviour of the majority of intentional systems; other systems seem to exhibit behaviour that is clearly more amenable to multiple systems theory. In the majority of ‘potential’ cases it would seem that there is a genuine indeterminacy between a multiple or single systems view.
While the diagnosing clinician clearly believes that what I have called the multiple systems interpretation is appropriate, other clinicians show a clear preference for insisting on the single systems view. The post-traumatic model considers that alters are not distinct selves, rather the self is the summation or fusion of all the alters. Such supporters might consider that alters do not constitute distinct selves, and might be hesitant to even consider them to be distinct intentional systems. In order to work with the alters to access their memories for the treatment goal of integration or fusion, however, it would seem that the clinician is required to ‘get to know’ them as distinct intentional systems. Spanos, (1994) maintains that the very act of listening to alters’ pronouncements of separateness and continuing the charade by using alternative names etc is what serves to reinforce the disorder. The main criticism from sceptics is that while supporters maintain that in theory alters are not separate or distinctive selves they treat them as such in practice.
It would thus seem that there is a decision to be made as to whether one adopts a single or multiple systems interpretation of these subjects’ behaviour. While one might consider that such a decision need not be made I think that in practice it must as we unavoidably interact with one another on the intentional level. Every modern theorist that I have encountered seems to consider it an absurdity to consider that selves are real and that alters are selves. The main argument against supporters is that this is what they are doing in practice. Multiple systems theory, however, considers that there is a realist aspect to the self (the behaviours that legitimate our attributions), and that alters, as intentional systems are indeed as real as any self could be #2
#2 The main argument against the ‘reification’ of alters seems to be an aversion to the legal consequence that we could not hold one alter responsible for another in a court of law. I do not think that considering alters to be selves logically entails this, however. Perhaps a distinction could be drawn between selves (to do with a psychological criterion) and persons (to do with a bodily criterion). I am grateful to XXX [privacy - sorry] for the suggestion that the subject be considered a corporation for legal purposes. Corporations are (sometimes) considered legal persons and thus the corporation as a whole can be held accountable despite the innocence or otherwise of particular employees (selves) that constitute the corporation. While I am just providing a hint of a response here I suggest it so as to illustrate that considering alters to be selves does not entail legal immunity.
[There now - that was easy. You would not believe how crucial people take this issue to be. Paper forthcoming if we ever get around to it... ;-)]It would seem that there is no way around making a decision; we are required to do so in our interacting with others on the intentional level.
This being said, the intentional stance demystifies the notion of a self or personality as an intentional system; and we need no longer make room in our explanations for a fixed and immutable Cartesian soul. Adopting an interpretation at one time would not seem to preclude adopting a different interpretation at another time. Such a change in interpretation could be considered something of a gestalt switch that is facilitated by a shaping in behaviours so where a duck may once have been legitimate a rabbit is more appropriate now. Supporters consider that working with alters is the best way to facilitate behaviours more amenable to what I have called a single systems view. It would seem that supporters and sceptics both are united in a common goal – altering these subjects’ behaviour so that the single systems interpretation is the most natural, plausible, predictively adequate account of these subjects’ behaviour. The disagreement would seem to be over the best way to achieve that.
Posted by sunny10 on March 28, 2005, at 10:50:00
In reply to (viii) Gestalt switches and change in..., posted by alexandra_k on March 28, 2005, at 3:34:45
yes, I very contraversial idea... I know that I am held "liable" for all things that I have done while not "in complete control of my senses"...
I have huge amounts of debt from marrying the wrong person (he charged up a lot of debt and emotionally abused me), a subsequent suicide attempt, major legal bills trying to regain at least partial custody of my son (PTSD from childhood neglect and emotional abusehave left me with a faulty "picker", it's been said). No one helps with legal bills just because you picked the wrong guy who abused you. Or because you picked that guy because your family of origin never loved you and you jumped at the first "sign" that someone actually might...
We are all considered "corporations"- whether or not we have always been "legally competant". In the wonderful US of A, a crazy person can run a corporation... and I'm sure lots do.
Posted by alexandra_k on March 28, 2005, at 15:47:32
In reply to Re: (viii) Gestalt switches and change in..., posted by sunny10 on March 28, 2005, at 10:50:00
Actually there was a case where a man got up from his bed. Went to his car. Drove it (stopping at red lights) through about 3 or 4 intersections. Went to his x wifes place. Shot her. Got back in his car and drove home. Went back to bed.
They said he was sleepwalking.
He got off.
Only in America ;-)
Some people have used DID as a defence (in the US). I don't think that should be allowed. Spend the time in a mental hospital rather than in jail - maybe. But not to get out of time altogether.
The body does the time the body does the crime (to be a bit simplistic).
Just my opinion...
Posted by Damos on March 29, 2005, at 22:18:57
In reply to Re: (viii) Gestalt switches and change in... » sunny10, posted by alexandra_k on March 28, 2005, at 15:47:32
I tend to agree.
Thanks so much for these threads I've learned a lot. Haven't done any work, but leaned a lot :-) Boy I must have a lot of under(un)utilised brain cells.
It is interesting that a large percentage of military training is intended to produce a system that performs as designed. It's also interesting that clinicians and theorists conveniently forget that they are 'intentional' systems and that they operate from a paradigm that they do not make explicit to others. I also don't believe that the lack of a lable or definition precludes the existence of something. It's also amazing how often the 'espoused theory' and the 'theory in use' tend to differ.
Posted by alexandra_k on March 30, 2005, at 0:42:04
In reply to Re: (viii) Gestalt switches and change in... » alexandra_k, posted by Damos on March 29, 2005, at 22:18:57
OO
OOIs the above one thing - or four?
(Is their one self or many?)How many are there REALLY?
There must be a fact of the matter...
But my point is that there isn't.Look at it one way and it is one thing (comprised of four parts).
Look at it another way and it is four things. The whole is nothing 'over and above' the parts and the way they are arranged.
There isn't a fact of the matter.
There isn't a truth beyond the objective facts of behaviours - and the INTERPRETATION we adopt. The way we choose to view them.There can be a genuine indeterminacy.
The facts (of behaviour) can't settle the issue.
It is a matter of INTERPRETATION.How do we choose which interpretation tracks the truth? It is the one that gives us the best predictive power.
If something works to make predictions
We can use it to explain
Then it is the best description we have of the way things REALLY are.It is fairly complicated.
But my point is that interpretation is the key.
And if you think that then the dispute between the supporters and the sceptics only arises because they think one is right and the other is wrong. But that is just not so...
Posted by alexandra_k on March 30, 2005, at 0:44:38
In reply to Re: (viii) Gestalt switches and change in..., posted by alexandra_k on March 30, 2005, at 0:42:04
The solution to the problem lies in the dissolution of the problem (Wittgenstein)
The aim of philosophy is to show the fly the way out of the fly bottle...
Posted by Damos on March 30, 2005, at 16:32:15
In reply to Re: (viii) Gestalt switches and change in..., posted by alexandra_k on March 30, 2005, at 0:42:04
YES
YES!
YES!!
YES!!!
YES!!!!I spend so much time here trying to help project managers understand that they need to focus on the whole as well as the parts, and trying ot get them to understand that they need to allow space for thoughts and opinions other than their own and not simply reject anything that doesn't agree with their worldview.
Posted by Damos on March 30, 2005, at 16:42:46
In reply to Re: (viii) Gestalt switches and change in..., posted by alexandra_k on March 30, 2005, at 0:44:38
I'll probably get into trouble for this but so what.
For the last few days I've just wished someone would screw the lid on the bottle - tight. Not doing so well. Couple of things seem to have throw me of my axis and onto a bit of a spiral. Sorry you don't need to be hearing this, you've got enough on your plate.
What I don't understand is why some people think that any other opinion invalidates them and they therfore have to crush and stamp it out of existence. Worse yet that a person *IS* their opinion.
Posted by alexandra_k on April 1, 2005, at 18:30:09
In reply to Re: (viii) Gestalt switches and change in... » alexandra_k, posted by Damos on March 30, 2005, at 16:42:46
(((Damos)))
Sorry I was late getting to this...
...I got there in the end.:-)
Are you having a rough time at work?
Posted by Damos on April 3, 2005, at 17:12:14
In reply to Re: (viii) Gestalt switches and change in..., posted by alexandra_k on April 1, 2005, at 18:30:09
Hey Precious Girl,
Thanks for the hug as I was running on empty.
(((((Alexandra_k)))))
Nah, work is pretty much its normal sucky self. I'm doing okay now, just lost the plot a bit last week.
Hope you're doin' okay. The weight of our own expectations can be hard to carry, but you need to remember how very far you've come, and how much you've achieved through some pretty tough times :-)
Take care and go with love kiddo.
Posted by alexandra_k on April 3, 2005, at 21:14:33
In reply to Re: (viii) Gestalt switches and change in... » alexandra_k, posted by Damos on April 3, 2005, at 17:12:14
:-)
(((Damos)))
You always help me feel better.> I'm doing okay now, just lost the plot a bit last week.
Yeah, I know that feeling. Sorry I wasn't there for ya last week... Had a bit of a suck week myself.
I am doing a bit better now... Trying to upgrade my Masters thesis into an MPhil. Hmm. We will have to see how that goes.
Yeah. I have come a long way. That can be really hard for me to remember sometimes. Always think of myself as falling short of some ideal or other.
:-(
I hope I get a t soon...
And I hope that this week is going better for you.
Posted by Damos on April 4, 2005, at 0:55:38
In reply to Re: (viii) Gestalt switches and change in... » Damos, posted by alexandra_k on April 3, 2005, at 21:14:33
> :-)
(-: It's always worth looking at things from another perspective.> (((Damos)))
(((Alexandra_k)))> You always help me feel better.
Pleasure, wish I could do more =0)
> Yeah, I know that feeling. Sorry I wasn't there for ya last week... Had a bit of a suck week myself.You were there, don't you worry about that. Only have to think of you to smile. Hope this week is going better for you.
> I am doing a bit better now... Trying to upgrade my Masters thesis into an MPhil. Hmm. We will have to see how that goes.Hmmm, never one to take much on are we ;-) You'll be fine.
> Yeah. I have come a long way. That can be really hard for me to remember sometimes. Always think of myself as falling short of some ideal or other.
Damn right you have, and I'm sure I don't know the half of it. I've haven't got time to list all the good things you are there are just so many.
> :-(
Don't be sad
> I hope I get a t soon...
The offers there, no matter what THEY do
> And I hope that this week is going better for you.So far so good, you too.
Posted by alexandra_k on April 4, 2005, at 1:30:35
In reply to Re: (viii) Gestalt switches and change in... » alexandra_k, posted by Damos on April 4, 2005, at 0:55:38
> > :-)
> (-: It's always worth looking at things from another perspective.Yup. I liked that.
> Hmmm, never one to take much on are we ;-) You'll be fine.
Yeah. It is kind of the only way to get another extension out of them... MPhils can be done over 2 years whereas if I extend my Masters to 2 years then I aren't considered full time anymore and lose entitlement for a living allowance. Its another 20,000 words or so... But it means I can forget about it while tutoring this semester and then get stuck in over the B semester and over summer.
> I've haven't got time to list all the good things you are there are just so many.You are really very kind to me, Damos.
> > I hope I get a t soon...
> The offers there, no matter what THEY doI know. I figured out that I can afford a couple of sessions so I have phoned and made an appoitment for next week. It was after your saying that that I really thought about it and figured I could scrape the money together. Couldn't do it every week. But a couple of sessions. Hopefully the funding will have come through by then.
> > And I hope that this week is going better for you.
> So far so good, you too.Thanks. Two weeks to the holidays, ahem, I mean 'study break'.
If I can get through my pile of marking I'll be well on track...
:-)
Posted by Damos on April 4, 2005, at 21:39:48
In reply to Re: (viii) Gestalt switches and change in... » Damos, posted by alexandra_k on April 4, 2005, at 1:30:35
> Yeah. It is kind of the only way to get another extension out of them... MPhils can be done over 2 years whereas if I extend my Masters to 2 years then I aren't considered full time anymore and lose entitlement for a living allowance. Its another 20,000 words or so... But it means I can forget about it while tutoring this semester and then get stuck in over the B semester and over summer.
Well it sounds like a very good plan then. Hmmmm 20,000 words, so about 4 of these threads then - easy. Kidding, just kidding ;-)
> You are really very kind to me, Damos.
Shhhh, you'll ruin my image.> I know. I figured out that I can afford a couple of sessions so I have phoned and made an appoitment for next week. It was after your saying that that I really thought about it and figured I could scrape the money together. Couldn't do it every week. But a couple of sessions. Hopefully the funding will have come through by then.
Okay, I have a sneaking suspicion that $ are significantly tighter for you than me and that you don't exactly get much if anything without having to fight for it, am I right? So let me do this for you okay. It's only Greeks bearing gifts you need to be wary of, not Aussie gits :-) And yes I can be a pushy bugger when things are really important. Think of it as having just discovered a somewhat mad but benevolent Aussie uncle or something, whatever works.
> Thanks. Two weeks to the holidays, ahem, I mean 'study break'.Lucky thing. What I wouldn't do for 2 weeks break of any description.
> If I can get through my pile of marking I'll be well on track...Sorry can't be of much help on that score.
Big hugs to you, and thanks for being my friend.
Posted by alexandra_k on April 5, 2005, at 0:18:44
In reply to Re: (viii) Gestalt switches and change in..., posted by Damos on April 4, 2005, at 21:39:48
> Well it sounds like a very good plan then. Hmmmm 20,000 words, so about 4 of these threads then - easy. Kidding, just kidding ;-)
Hmm. Shouldn't be too bad... I have done about 20,000 words to draft version already... About 10,000 that I'm happy with. I think I can, I think I can ;-)
> Shhhh, you'll ruin my image.Ha! You are just a big softie! Everyone here knows that ;-)
> So let me do this for you okay.No. I really appreciate the offer - don't get me wrong. But no. I can manage, I promise.
> Lucky thing. What I wouldn't do for 2 weeks break of any description.
:-)
Don't you have holiday time stacked up?? How about taking some of that? You are entitled you know. You could do with a break by the sounds of it.> Sorry can't be of much help on that score.
Thats ok. I'll just chuck 'em up the stairs - the A's are the ones that make it to the fourth step ;-)
> Big hugs to you, and thanks for being my friend.You are welcome Damos. Big hugs back.
Posted by Damos on April 5, 2005, at 0:49:53
In reply to Re: (viii) Gestalt switches and change in... » Damos, posted by alexandra_k on April 5, 2005, at 0:18:44
> Hmm. Shouldn't be too bad... I have done about 20,000 words to draft version already... About 10,000 that I'm happy with. I think I can, I think I can ;-)
Know you can, know you can :-)
> Ha! You are just a big softie! Everyone here knows that ;-)
Got me! In the head and around the middle especially =0)
> No. I really appreciate the offer - don't get me wrong. But no. I can manage, I promise.Okely dokely
> Don't you have holiday time stacked up?? How about taking some of that? You are entitled you know. You could do with a break by the sounds of it.Yeh, I just pretty much just can't stand myself at the moment, but there's nothing especially unusual in that I guess ;-)
> Thats ok. I'll just chuck 'em up the stairs - the A's are the ones that make it to the fourth step ;-)Great minds think alike as that'd be my strategy :-)
Take care ey
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