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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Shortelise on June 30, 2005, at 0:44:04
Last night I took 25% less celexa. Tonight I am feeling angry and frustrated. Anger was a problem for me before I started Celexa - could this be about withdrawal?
Thanks for info.
ShortE
Posted by rabble_rouser on June 30, 2005, at 10:13:28
In reply to Anger - from withdrawal?, posted by Shortelise on June 30, 2005, at 0:44:04
Hi ShortE,
Sorry to hear you are having symptoms, but congrats that you are looking for answers!
I've been on Seroxat and Celexa in the past. Seroxat made me hugely aggressive, especially in the withdrawal phase, and going cold turkey on Effexor also brought out a homicidal streak in me. Withdrawing from Celexa made me a tearful mess. Each of these drugs seems to effect people in different ways.
If you are feeling angry, it could be that the drug is screwing with your norepinephrine (adrenaline). This neurotransmitter plays a large role in helping you deal with stress, and irritability is normally linked with it.
I am not a trained medic, but I'm withdrawing from Effexor for the second time and, from simple experimentation I have found that the amino acids L-Tyrosine, DL-Phenylalanine, L-Glutamine and even green tea all seem to work on this neurotransmitter and alleviate stress and irritability. Please note - I came off effexor before (2003) and had massive symptoms, and with these tabs I've been a bundle of joy. That however is the only scientific evidence I can offer!
Ginkgo Biloba is also cited as being good for helping the body deal with stress, which is linked with cortisol levels in the blood. I'm guessing you're not a guy so I won't tell you about the hidden (rather interesting) quirk of gingko ...
Please also check out posts by apenname, who also has had good experiences with vitamins.
Apologies for sounding like a hippy, but I have found that meditation is EXCELLENT for controlling irritability and most mood problems. Its free, its fun, your liver will thank you and after a while it has some COOL extra effects ...
Bluuuuue skies ,
Ross (rabble_rouser)
Posted by Shortelise on June 30, 2005, at 13:26:38
In reply to Re: Anger - from withdrawal?, posted by rabble_rouser on June 30, 2005, at 10:13:28
Ross, thanks so very kindly for this info. I went back and read some of your recent posts about supplements. I am off to my local vitamin store to explore that murky world.
I really appreciate your time in telling me about this. It's sometimes very hard to know where to start, and what to believe.
Exercise and meditation both are efficient stress relievers. I can't seem to make myself do much of either.
What I think I dislike most is irritability. I get so damn cranky! Grrr! Part of what feeds my crankiness is trying to cut these crumbly pills.
:-)Yes, I am female.
ShortE
Posted by reefer on June 30, 2005, at 21:11:29
In reply to Re: Anger - from withdrawal?, posted by rabble_rouser on June 30, 2005, at 10:13:28
I'm not seeing how amino acids in their free form would help more than a protein shake? Only way i could see a difference would be if their respective non-natural optical isomer would be used instead, like the (D-)/(L-)Phenylalanine. Please clarify this for me and also state dosage of the free form amino acid. Thanks.
Posted by Shortelise on June 30, 2005, at 23:59:02
In reply to Re: Anger - from withdrawal?, posted by reefer on June 30, 2005, at 21:11:29
I think you might need to start a new thread addressed to rabble rouser to get a response. I'll read with interest.
ShortE
Posted by rabble_rouser on July 1, 2005, at 9:18:09
In reply to Re: Anger - from withdrawal?, posted by reefer on June 30, 2005, at 21:11:29
Hello reefer and shortE,
Sorry I missed your posts - I havent got my email notifications on! I have no idea about optical isomers etc - its sounds like you have a level of knowledge above mine.
Doses:
Choline: 1000mg
L-Glutamine (500mg) taken with DL-Phenylalanine (1000mg) on an empty stomach.
L-Tyrosine: (1000mg) taken separate from other aminos and on empty stomach.
Green Tea extract: 100mg 3 times a day
Ginkgo Biloba: Cant remember!
Omega 3's: 1000mg
Co-q 10: 30mg (?)
Multivit - some great big thing.
B Complex - the mega one.
Vit C - 200mgI started taking most of the vits because I hoped they could supplement the anti-depressive effect of Effexor, based on information I had found online regarding the effect of aminos on depression. I just accidentally found out that they wiped out all my side effects - and are working on the withdrawal. The only scientific control I have is that I took effexor before and got side effects and BAD withdrawal, but yet this time there are none.
I'm posting what has worked for me in the hope it helps others - so I hope I am not offending the pharmacological community! It is quite a cost to lay out on vits. If you like, give it a try, or one of the other many suggestions on this site. I have heard about effexor and antihistamines before, which is cool if you have hayfever AND depression!
Is this all available in a protein shake? If I can get this all in one chocolate flavoured glass then you have just become my new best friend! :)
Blue skies
Ross
Posted by rabble_rouser on July 1, 2005, at 11:00:43
In reply to Re: Anger - from withdrawal? » rabble_rouser, posted by Shortelise on June 30, 2005, at 13:26:38
Hello shortE,
I can well understand where you are coming from on the crankiness - its a major pain in the a*s! Just when you wanna reach out and let someone help you, instead you feel like punching them on the nose ... :( My mum has bought the t-shirt on that one ...
Re the meditation. Are you having real trouble relaxing? I found that at first - its really tough to stop all the thoughts flying round your head. The moment you close your eyes, BANG there they are.
I find that, to relax, you begin by 'becoming aware' of your body. Its difficult to put into words so try an exercise.
Try this right now - think about your right hand. Be aware of how it feels. Feel its weight. Let it go limp. Now try the fingers. The index. The middle. The pinkie. Maybe they will begin to feel warm. Now try your forearm - just let it go limp, just be aware of how it feels.
Try sitting in a chair, with open body posture (no crossed legs or arms). Now, start to apply this awareness / relaxation to your whole body. Your arms. Your shoulders. Let it flow all over, and as you do become aware of any tension in your body (usually shoulders or hands/fingers). Let it all go loose, and move on.
Once you feel relaxed, become aware of your breathing. Its an unusual sensation - its all so automatic, but now it seems like you are more connected to it. Count your in and out breaths up to 4 each time. Do this for a few minutes and notice how relaxed you are becoming. If a thought pops into your head and makes you tense, just let it ride through your mind like a train through a station. Feel the emotion, dont try to control it - just let it roll on by. Maybe there's someone you really dislike in the window. Wave em on by. Flip em the bird with a could-care-less smile. If it comes, let the anger or the frustration rise in you. It will reach a peak - but then it will begin to subside. It will pass.
You may want to imagine a relaxing scene like a beach, or a forest, or perhaps a waterfall. See all the shades of light on the water. Hear the birds and surroundings. Smell the grass - completely immerse yourself in the surroundings.
Let yourself stay here in this wonderfully relaxing place for as long as you wish. If a thought pops into your head and makes you tense or angry, just let it ride through your mind like that train through a station. Feel it, let it rise, and let it pass. You can once again become aware of your breathing. Enjoy this place for as long as you want to.If and when you want to come around, you can jtake a few deeper breaths. Open your eyes and take a stretch. Breathe out one big breath, and become aware of your surroundings. Notice how much better you feel?
I like to do this 3 or 4 times a day, using different visualisations, especially when I am angry or upset. Suddenly the world just seems a different place.
Yes I'm a hippy!
Hope it helps.
Blue skies
Ross
Posted by rabble_rouser on July 4, 2005, at 13:37:27
In reply to Re: Anger - from withdrawal? » rabble_rouser, posted by Shortelise on June 30, 2005, at 13:26:38
Hi ShortE
Whilst I think about it, I wanted to tell you that I began taking the vitamins whilst I was actually on Effexor, in the hope they would supplement the antidepressive effect. I found they took away side effects whilst on it.
With that in mind, I figured, "see if they stop withdrawal", continued taking them and they are stopping it. I have therefore been taking them for quite a while. I know some supplements take a while to kick in (like ginkgo). I very much hope that if you try the vits they work straight away, but bearing in mind what I have just said there is a possibility that vits are not an 'instant fix' and in fact have a beneficial effect over time. I am not sure either way - its just something to bear in mind.
Rabble
Posted by Shortelise on July 6, 2005, at 0:59:16
In reply to Re: Anger - from withdrawal?, posted by rabble_rouser on July 4, 2005, at 13:37:27
Thanks, RR.
I have decided to go to the best shop in my city for this sort of thing, to have the advantage of talking with someone there who knows lots about these things. Tomorrow afternoon is when I am going, so wish me luck. I do hope this stuff helps.
It would be so great if some sort of supplemnts would really really make a difference in how I feel. I'm not in bad shape, but really could be better.
:-)
Posted by rabble_rouser on July 6, 2005, at 6:17:03
In reply to Re: Anger - from withdrawal? » rabble_rouser, posted by Shortelise on July 6, 2005, at 0:59:16
Best of luck!
Rabble
Posted by JahL on July 13, 2005, at 20:53:22
In reply to Re: Anger - from withdrawal?, posted by rabble_rouser on July 1, 2005, at 9:18:09
> Is this all available in a protein shake? If I can get this all in one chocolate flavoured glass then you have just become my new best friend! :)
Hi Ross.I don't know if this helps, but because I have no appetite and am a faddy eater anyway, I practically live on high quality protein/carb shakes. They're essentially designed for bodybuilders (who need high quality protein for real growth) and contain all the essential amino acids (19 of them), apparently in the correct ratio, and are especially rich in branch chain amino acids. Just don't overdo it; too much unused protein is not good for the kidneys (or is it liver?).
The brand I take (I probably shouldn't name it, but there are plenty of equivalent products on the market anyway) is also choc-full of minerals, EFAs and vitamins, though at 'sensible' doses. It might not be the complete answer, but it could simplify, and maybe complement, your daily routine. I dunno.
Oh, you get a choice, strawberry, banana *or* chocolate.
Best,
Jamie.
Posted by rabble_rouser on July 18, 2005, at 12:59:37
In reply to Re: protein shakes. » rabble_rouser, posted by JahL on July 13, 2005, at 20:53:22
Hi Jahl,
Thanks for the input! I got the doses from holistic remedy websites, which recommended that specific combination as being anti-depressive - I added then to the effexor as I wanted to remain on the medium dose of 150mg. I was pleased to see I got no side-effects.
I do remember about 5 or 6 years ago I was taking Seroxat (paxil) and at the same time got well into bodybuilding. I was having two of those shakes a day, but the side effects (especially anger - god the anger!) were still very strong. Since then I have had a lot of therapy and realised that Paxil is a nightmare drug - effexor has actually been my favourite so far.
I try to drink huge amounts of water throughout the day - I really hope my liver is ok! Maybe I'll go take a test ...
Thanks again
Ross
This is the end of the thread.
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