![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Allen770 on October 24, 2004, at 2:00:37
Hey everyone and "Greetings from the Desert":
I am very interested in how the diseases of alcoholism and over-eating manifest themselves in displaying almost the exact, same affects of one another, insofar as the “reasons” (e.g., past
“abuse” [sexual, psychical, et. al.], heretitiety, parent modeling, seritonin levels “off,” &c) and, also, the affects of shame, guilt, self-abuse, relapse, and many other things.There’re a lot of interesting parallels, and I’ve only begun to think about the similarities between the two. For example, there’s a “sugar” connection, since alcohol is made from food
(e.g., whiskey=CORN; vodka=POTATOES; saki=RICE; wine=GRAPES, &c), but one of my difficulties in understanding/”relating to” over-eaters compared to alcoholics/addicts is this: One NEEDS “food” in order to live and sustain life; one does NOT NEED alcohol or chemicals to maintain existence.I also have difficulty in completely understanding “binge over-eating,” like when a person (even if living alone!) would “sneek” food, or “eat out of the frige,” late at night making sure that “No one would find out . . .”
For “some reason” I have a better “understanding” of an addict/alcoholic displaying this exact, same behavior--even if “living alone!”--than over-eaters, and I’d like to be able to learn more about these two “separate” yet so very similar
diseases, with your help, advice, and references.Albeit I can and I do understand the shared feelings of shame, anger, guilt, fear, and others, I don not understand an over-eater’s “hunger” being at “one minute” NORMAL, then, after, say, a “trigger,” racing 100 m.p.h. to RAVENOUS.
Thx, in advance.
--Allen770
Posted by Racer on October 24, 2004, at 13:26:43
In reply to Re Alcoholism as Compared to Over-eating Disorders, posted by Allen770 on October 24, 2004, at 2:00:37
I'm very curious about why you have so many quotation marks in this post? It looks to me as if you've decided for yourself that binge eating disorder is not a real phenomenon, despite its inclusion in the DSM-IV?
At any rate, after discussing my anorexia with another poster on this board -- someone who always makes the sun shine for me (hi!) -- who struggles with alcoholism, I can safely say that I'm convinced the same sort of distress is involved for both of us. We may express our difficulties in different ways, but both of us suffer very similar disorders at baseline.
I don't think there's any real basis for considering the basis for the alcoholic beverages -- and vodka is no longer made from potatoes, it's all grain nowadays -- the point in both alcoholism and binge eating is to suppress the pain with a substance. The effects of alcohol are well enough known that I don't think it's worth mentioning them; and haven't you ever heard anyone refer to "food coma" or the like after Thanksgiving or Christmas dinner? That feeling of being so full you just want to hibernate for the winter? Binge eating can lead to a state very similar to intoxication for many people.
There are certainly parallels between alcoholism and eating disorders, not limited to binge eating disorder. I don't know that you can fully understand it without experiencing one or the other, though. You can only gain an intellectual, and therefore limited, insight into what is essentially an emotional phenomenon.
Posted by vwoolf on October 24, 2004, at 14:10:21
In reply to Re Alcoholism as Compared to Over-eating Disorders, posted by Allen770 on October 24, 2004, at 2:00:37
I binge eat and have a problem with alcohol. They are similar, in that both in both cases I try to push away bad feelings about myself. The alcohol abuse follows certain rituals and times. The binge eating is much more direct - the moment I feel shamed in any way, (and it can be the most indirect, unbelievable way), I try and compensate with food.
Posted by Allen770 on October 25, 2004, at 5:10:43
In reply to Why all the quotation marks? Don't believe in EDs? » Allen770, posted by Racer on October 24, 2004, at 13:26:43
"I'm very curious about why you have so many quotation marks in this post? It looks to me as if you've decided for yourself that binge eating disorder is not a real phenomenon, despite its inclusion in the DSM-IV?"
Ha! No, I apologize for "that," sincerely. It's merely a habit I've "clung-to" upon earning my silly graduate degree.
Again--and, I've "heard this"--i.e., "quotation marks," "Latin abbreviations," "dashes-and-ellipses"--all before.
"My 'BAD'!"
--Allen
Posted by Racer on October 25, 2004, at 11:19:09
In reply to Re: Why all the quotation marks? Don't believe in EDs? » Racer, posted by Allen770 on October 25, 2004, at 5:10:43
Posted by Allen770 on October 25, 2004, at 20:45:51
In reply to LoL! Thanks for the grins (nm) » Allen770, posted by Racer on October 25, 2004, at 11:19:09
"DSM-IV?"
I still don't know what this abbreviation means, "racer . . ."
Moreover, you wouldn't be "giggling," I don't believe, if my earlier post of this morning had in fact posted.
Maybe I'll write it, again, but, suffice to say that I did take offense at your first post, and I thought it pretty much self-serving (viz; you offered neither me nor anyone else any "information," whether it be "new," or "helpful," or . . . just not "anything," really).
You make grave assumptions regarding me that I remain quite perturbed about; For example:
"I don't know that you can fully understand it without experiencing one or the other, though. You can only gain an intellectual, and therefore limited, insight into what is essentially an emotional phenomenon."
Pardon me, Ms. "racer," but where do you get off? I mean, really! Moreover, your blatant "self-assured" responses are just plain wrong, if not "ignorant," I think:
e.g.; "vodka is no longer made from potatoes, it's all grain nowadays," you say.
REALLY?!!? Hmm . . . You don't say?!!?
and;
"I don't think there's any real basis for considering the basis for the alcoholic beverages--the point in both alcoholism and binge eating is to suppress the pain with a substance."
As if we all don't realize, or comprehend this? Moreover, the sentence barely makes sense, at all . . .
Or:
" . . . haven't you ever heard anyone refer to "food coma" or the like after Thanksgiving or Christmas dinner?"
Well, no, "racer," I must admit! In fact, I'd never, ever "heard anyone" so eloquently "refer to 'food coma' or the like," as you have, in anyway, or any where, whatsoever; not ever!
Sorry (I guess). Finally:
"There are certainly parallels between alcoholism and eating disorders, not limited to binge eating disorder."
Yes! My point, exactly!
That's why I POSED THE QUESTION, to begin with, right?
Right.
(((Again, I apologize, but I was really hoping for some "new insight" and/or information regarding these two somewhat strangely related diseases. It's late, so I'll have to return to this thread at a later time. Has anyone ever read any books by: DOREEN VIRTUE, Ph.D. [_Losing Your Pounds of Pain_, for example]??????)))
Thx, all,
--Allen
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 27, 2004, at 10:05:42
In reply to Re: LoL! Thanks for the grins, posted by Allen770 on October 25, 2004, at 20:45:51
> I thought [your first post] pretty much self-serving
>
> your blatant "self-assured" responses are just plain wrong, if not "ignorant," I think
>
> the sentence barely makes sensePlease don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Caper on October 28, 2004, at 1:23:15
In reply to Re: LoL! Thanks for the grins, posted by Allen770 on October 25, 2004, at 20:45:51
Hi, just wanted to tell you what the DSM-IV is (might as well use my psychology degree for something!).
It's the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, often referred to as "the psychiatrist's bible". It gives specific criteria for mental disorders; everything from major depression to substance abuse to senile dementia. I'm writing this off the top of my head and it's 2:30am so...this is just an attempt to show what DSM is generally like.
Take borderline personality disorder, for example. DSM lists 9 symptoms of BPD, and to officially get this diagnosis a person must exhibit at least 5 symptoms out of the nine and the symptoms must be long standing and cause some sort of maladaptive behavior.
The U.S. uses DSM criteria but if I remember correctly, there is a sort of "world wide" DSM type manual called ICD-10. Same premise but with some differences in criteria and sometimes there are even differences in what DSM lists as a mental disorder and what ICD-10 lists. Plus they change with each revision. At one point homosexuality was listed in DSM as a mental illness. I think that stopped in the mid 1970's.
This was probably too much information, but I can't sleep and when I can't sleep, I type. Hope this clarifies things and didn't bore you to death.
Caper
Posted by gardenergirl on October 28, 2004, at 20:57:19
In reply to Just an FYI re: DSM IV » Allen770, posted by Caper on October 28, 2004, at 1:23:15
Just wondering if that was a "silly old" degree in psychology??? Or a serious one? Are you allowed to be silly if you have serious degree? Can you get a degree in silly?
Ah well...silly me.
:-D
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on October 28, 2004, at 20:59:15
In reply to Re: Just an FYI re: DSM IV » Caper, posted by gardenergirl on October 28, 2004, at 20:57:19
BTW, I mean to be silly here. Not to say anything about you and your degree. Hope you understand and smiled at above. If not, I'm sorry.
gg
Posted by Allen770 on October 30, 2004, at 7:48:13
In reply to Just an FYI re: DSM IV » Allen770, posted by Caper on October 28, 2004, at 1:23:15
It's the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, often referred to as "the psychiatrist's bible".
(Allen770) Thx!
Take borderline personality disorder, for example.
(Allen770) I'm BPD, too . . . (Bipolar Axis II, too.) Alcoholic, drug addict . . . and more. UGH! "Labels," ya know?
Yippie . . .
Posted by Allen770 on October 30, 2004, at 7:50:02
In reply to Re: Just an FYI re: DSM IV » Caper, posted by gardenergirl on October 28, 2004, at 20:57:19
Posted by Crazy_Charlie on November 1, 2004, at 12:46:45
In reply to Re Alcoholism as Compared to Over-eating Disorders, posted by Allen770 on October 24, 2004, at 2:00:37
Hoi Allen
As far as I know alcoholism and eating disturbances are linked by genes, and not by the content of the stuff you put in your mouth.
The theory behind it is that they are both behaviours that are covering up for difficult emotions in ones life.. but I wont go in depth of that, simply because there are loads of litterature on this subject. But you are mentioning parts of it yourself with the "reasons" you are mentioning. Alcoholism versus eating disorders, two different ways of dealing with problematic feelings.. as some kind of inefficient defence mechanisms with profound effect on your life.
The snekaing comes from the shame the overeating person is experiencing while over eating. It exist some kind of "rules" in all countries about eating... e.g. you eat a certain amount of food on certain times a day, you eat untill you are full and not more etcetc. Eating in the night is usually not a typical thing, and overeating is often viewed upon of others as something bad (the ferson is greedy etc). Thereby sneaking and trying to hide the traces. Other explanations also include that over-eaters/alcoholics either don't want to admit that they don't have a problem (but still knows that they do, so to prevent confrontations they hide the symptoms) OR they don't want others to know that they have a problem (perfectionism, or not wanting to be any kind of trouble for anyone).
Food, as alcohol, is used to REPLACE a bad feeling. You can experience a certain "high" by eating some kinds of food (due to dopamin and/or serotonin release), but consentrating on eating can also take away the bad feelings. Thereby hunger is induced when you feel bad.. but it's not really a hunger for food, ut a hunger for something that makes you feel better. A kind of feeling in your stomach, as if it is empty, a kind of ache.... that you misplace with hunger.
When it comes to your comment about us not needing alcohol... well. I find it a bit easy to say that we need food and thereby it's understandable that we abuse it. The fact is that we eat a lot more than we actually need, and we eat a hell of a lot of thinsg that we DON'T need... just because it's good, or just because it makes you FEEL good (sugar makes someone feel good immediately after eating it for example- tho we don't really need sugar, but carbohydrates, and preferably something that works slower than sugar- and we certainly don't need as much as we eat). So. You drink alcohol, and that makes you FEEL good, and that is something we all like, isn't it? Thereby addiction is easier.
Actually I find this more intriguing:
When we eat something and throw up afterwards, we will usually have problems with eating that again afterwards... even if we KNOW that it wasn't what we ate that made us throw up. I'm sure most of you can remember eating something, getting the stomach flu afterwards, and then experiencing that you don't want to eat that food again... even if you have been eating it many times before and never gotten sick before. It is such a powerful survival mechanism that in certain cancer departments doctors give kids something weird tasting to eat before they treat them with chemotherapy. They do this because it's important that the child eat something first, since that make sthe chance of getting sick less. But at the same time, the child might as well get sick anyway, and throw up, and then refus eto eat that food afterwards. At some point it might get difficult to make the child eat anything at all.Now, to the part that I find difficult to understand in the light of this. In spite of this powerful survival mechanism, quite a lot of people will get drunk a second time even if they had a nauseous and puking hangover after the first time. Even though they KNOW that it was the alcohol that made them sick. They might try another brewage (like beer instead of wine), but it's the alcohol that make you sick, and not the type you drink...
Interesting, isn't it?
Posted by Allen770 on November 1, 2004, at 15:56:37
In reply to Re: Re Alcoholism as Compared to Over-eating Disorders » Allen770, posted by Crazy_Charlie on November 1, 2004, at 12:46:45
"Interesting?"
QUITE!
Thx for your insightful comments . . .
Posted by Caper on November 11, 2004, at 17:07:50
In reply to Re: Just an FYI re: DSM IV » gardenergirl, posted by gardenergirl on October 28, 2004, at 20:59:15
Don't worry, I'm pretty difficult to offend, and yes, I did smile. Best to you,
Caper
> BTW, I mean to be silly here. Not to say anything about you and your degree. Hope you understand and smiled at above. If not, I'm sorry.
> gg
Posted by AuntieMel on November 22, 2004, at 18:21:39
In reply to Why all the quotation marks? Don't believe in EDs? » Allen770, posted by Racer on October 24, 2004, at 13:26:43
Sorry to disagree (and - hey - I know it was a month ago, but I just now read it) but Vodka is still made from potatoes in Poland. It's some of the best Vodka I ever had.
Before I quit drinking, that is.
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Substance Use | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.