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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Mr.Scott on July 18, 2004, at 23:56:45
I am proud to admit my affiliation to AA and feel that it is a very cool, and very helpful way of life even though I've only been at it 9 mos. I am clearly dually diagnosed with addiction and mental illness.Here's the problem...I have tremendous anxiety and depression. I mean I've used every antidepressant (including ECT) and antianxiety drug available. I feel like I'm not totally working "the program" by remaining on these meds...particularly the clonazepem. I take .75mg at bedtime and never abuse it. In fact I doubt it really does anything at this point anyways???
What should I do about my conflict?
Posted by tabitha on July 20, 2004, at 1:40:34
In reply to AA Recovery and Benzodiazepines, posted by Mr.Scott on July 18, 2004, at 23:56:45
I'm not really much of an AA person, but to me being sober is about having a brain that's functioning in the normal range, so you can live a decent life. If you're suffering psych symptoms like depression/anxiety/panic, your life in some ways is as limited as if you were getting intoxicated every day. Those symptoms interfere with your sleep, your health, your thinking, your daily functioning, your ability to connect with others, your ability to connect with your spirituality, and your ability to grow emotionally. Pretty much the same stuff that's affected by drug/alcohol abuse. So I see a person on necessary psych meds as actually more sober than one who's got uncontrolled symptoms. I've known AA folks to find this point of view offensive though.
Posted by Glydin on July 23, 2004, at 23:03:57
In reply to Re: AA Recovery and Benzodiazepines, posted by tabitha on July 20, 2004, at 1:40:34
I very much agree with tabitha in this. Benzo's get lumped into the abuse and addiction category as they do have this potential. They can be used approiately and "right a brain functioning wrong" just any any other med can. What is AA's stance if one were taking an antidepressant or other psych meds? I truely don't know and really wish to - does clean and sober mean NO use of any psychopharm agents? I apologize in advance for my lack of knowledge about this.
Posted by tabitha on July 24, 2004, at 3:22:11
In reply to Re: AA Recovery and Benzodiazepines, posted by Glydin on July 23, 2004, at 23:03:57
Maybe some folks in AA can speak on this. I've heard second-hand that about half the AA'ers are anti-med and half aren't. I'd imagine the attitude varies a lot from group to group.
Posted by ramsea on July 28, 2004, at 6:07:21
In reply to Re: AA Recovery and Benzodiazepines » Glydin, posted by tabitha on July 24, 2004, at 3:22:11
I have about 20 years experience with AA and even worked in rehab awhile. There's a chapter in the so-called Big Book which states the formal opinion of AA. This basically says that AA is not a cure all and some people will need psychiatric help that goes beyond AA. Check A Doctor's Opinion. There's also a pamphlet, probably available online, about AA and Meds.
One of the two main founders of AA suffered terrible depression even after "sobering" up. This often gets ignored. Many times inaccurate information regarding psychiatric meds are given as gospel in meetings and I have been both the unfortunate recipient of dangerous medical advice from non-medics as well as seeing others with a psychiatric illness pilloried.
I recall one person who worked about 15 years in rehab counsling and they suffered a severe depression when the spouse suddenly left them with no warning for another rehab counselor. This person was a generous sponsor to many people and very well respected. Then this suddenly traumatized person, over 15 years without a drink or medicine of any kind, was ostracized and belittled and humiliated in meetings where the person was "confronted" with the fact of taking an antidepressant. This person had stopped eating and looked very frail--clearly they were ill. They needed AA support fellowship, but got the boot. The wounding was very, very deep.
Okay, so not everyone in AA is so judgemental and narrow, but it is true that some are. I believe it is because they are actually very frightened for their own safety so they may not be able to think less self-centeredly. Humans are often like this, aren't we? If we have a bad experience with something we generalize that everyone else will feel like we do. We may make assumptions about another person's motives based on our own experience, and it may have no baring on anyone else's needs. Just a thought.
One rehab position I am familiar with is the notion that lithium is okay if doctors feel it is necessary. This is because lithium almost never causes a "high" or even in appropriate doses, sedation as such. If you take too much lithium it will cause sickness, possible coma, possible death. And no euphoric experience with it.
Also, anti-psychotics are often okay if again the rehab team believe there is true psychosis. And anti-psychs do not have a euphoria potential either.
Some rehab units do use anti-depressants. I am not at all sure why anti-ds are so villainized, since when I have taken them all I ever got was horrible dysphoric manias which are very non-addictive. Maybe because so many alcoholics are also depressive?? And some people do get euphoria from them, usually very temporary. I guess I have, but it was so temporary I hardly remember, and how to separate that feel good factor from the fact of trying to not feel so depressed there's no will to live? It can be wonderful to feel like living again.
Benzos of course get the evil eye, perhaps rightly in some cases.
Personally as a severe social phobic I have been helped by Ativan and it hasn't led to addiction, though like my lithium it helps me live okay so I do take it as required. But nowadays the receptionist team at the GPs treat any repeat script of benzo as a cry for a fix from a addict, and it is amazingly humiliating.
The social anxiety increases tenfold when you have to go through the rigamorole that is necessary now to fill the script as specified by the pdoc.
Sorry--that last complaint wasn't what you asked for. In short, officially there is no AA ban on psychotropic meds.Unofficially, many members consider that anyone who is on antideps etc is welcome to come to meetings if they have a "true desire" to be free of alcohol (and nowadays also illegal drugs but this is controversial too). They are however perceived to be still struggling and should not be given positions of "power" such as leading a meeting.
This is because the members don't feel that person is still "truly sober". Of course some actually abstinent members also get the humiliating treatment when they are deemed a Dry Drunk. To be this all one has to be is clinically depressed and chronically unhappy, but still not drinking (or smoking pot, etc).
Hope that helps a little.
Posted by Mr.Scott on July 30, 2004, at 18:57:44
In reply to Re: AA Recovery and Benzodiazepines » Glydin, posted by tabitha on July 24, 2004, at 3:22:11
My experience has been that 1/3rd of the people in AA feel strongly anti-meds and the rest think they are potentially appropriate but don't talk about it much.
My worry (for myself) is that if I don't accept my anxiety, mood, and fibromyalgia disorders I will keep trying to fix them with chemicals instead of actual changes that aren't so quick fix, and I'll never learn how be at peace with myself. Also... Some drugs (Not benzo's or lithium or antidepressants, but perhaps stimulants) elevate dopamine and I wonder if they directly trigger drug cravings and relapse?
I don't know... I worry a lot... I take 4 meds and I don't want to use illicit drugs or alcohol ever again or misuse prescribed meds either.
Posted by Glydin on July 30, 2004, at 20:04:42
In reply to Re: AA Recovery and Benzodiazepines, posted by Mr.Scott on July 30, 2004, at 18:57:44
I have often wondered, and the question is rhetorical, WHY we so stigmatize just about any mental disorder or those with mental componants and physical disorders, we have no problem treating with any number of therapies? I'm of the opinion the brain is an organ and a system just as all the others that our body requires to function. Mental illness is not choosen and isn't a character flaw. Until we get past the "you could help that by sheer will" thinking, which won't happen in my lifetime, we'll never be "proper" in treatment.
We do need to accept our illnesses, but not to justify thinking there's nothing we can do or that the same utilization of therapies shouldn't be used because it's emotional related. Everyone deserves adequate treatment for all disorders.
Posted by Cameron on August 11, 2004, at 15:17:31
In reply to Re: AA Recovery and Benzodiazepines » Mr.Scott, posted by Glydin on July 30, 2004, at 20:04:42
Mr. Smith does not need to go Washington and tote the "AA" party line.
As a Former member of AA, just remind yourself and others that one of the AA Traditions state that AA has no opinions on outside issues and does not engage in any controversy. So any DOGMA you are getting is from those of the CULT AA. AA is like religion; you got your zealots and your born agains and then you beloved tolerant moderates. Bottom line: what I do like is you just don't drink, not matter what and you get outside help for matters that are personal to you. Keep up the good work and don't "cast your pearls before swine".
Love,
Marcia
Posted by karlak13 on August 20, 2004, at 22:18:51
In reply to Re: AA Recovery and Benzodiazepines, posted by tabitha on July 20, 2004, at 1:40:34
I have been in and out of AA/NA for many many years. I got a lot of support and help staying clean. Of course I relapsed from time to time. I developed a chronic pain issue and the dr and I tried over 35 different meds to prevent the pain that were all non narcotic. Non of them worked. I was sent to a ha/pain clinic for help. I was in the ER 8x a month getting shots of dilaudid to kill the pain. I never got high from it just pain relief. I never got addicted and needed it without a drs order. The pain clinic put me on methadone 10mg am and 10mg pm. I took some slack from NA about that but pointed out I got NO high from it and it worked to prevent my pain. A year latter I was able to stop it cold turkey and switch over to the duragesic patch 50mcg. I took so much heat for that that I quit going to NA. I got NO high NO buzz nothing. I took it for a year. It killed the pain and kept me out of the ERs. Then I just decided to stop the patch in March becaue I believed God healed me. I have not had a ha since I went off the meds 22 weeks ago. I had no withdraws after being on opiates of different kinds for over 5 years. Like I said no high, use as directed you should be ok. I take xanax now for anxiety. If I go back to NA I will not disclose what meds I take ever again. Its not there business or life. I consider myself to have been clean for the last 11 years. I have not used cocaine, meth, pot, acid, alcohol, etc that were my drugs of choice.
Posted by Rayray on August 29, 2004, at 12:34:22
In reply to Re: AA Recovery and Benzodiazepines, posted by tabitha on July 20, 2004, at 1:40:34
I'm with you, tabitha. As a long-term (11 yrs)and active member of AA, I fall into the category of those who believe that psych meds, properly used (including benzos) are appropriate. As some say -- "I didn't get sober to be miserable."
One of the guiding principles of AA is "To thine own self be true." Intention has a lot to do with it. Only if you are being truly honest with yourself can you distinguish whether you're using these meds appropriately or not.
Ray
Posted by Donna Louise on October 5, 2004, at 13:37:24
In reply to Re: AA Recovery and Benzodiazepines, posted by Rayray on August 29, 2004, at 12:34:22
Boy, am I ever glad to find this thread. I have been torturing myself for awhile now about the meds I am taking. I have been in AA for 20 years and am also a drug addict. With hindsight I see I was self-medicating anxiety and depression that I can't remember not having. I am sure I did alot mor damage on top of what was already out of whack. Anyway, I went the first 5 years in AA with no medicinal help and was greatly influenced by the zealots. I was nearly housebound before I would consider an antidepressant. I have taken them ever since adding more and more over time as my condition worsens. But the latest addition of klonipin is the one that has the zealot voices in my head screaming relapse! But it as another poster said, I am not shooting up anything that will dissolve in water and going into nightly blackouts and doing all kinds of things outside my value system. And I do not want to!!! I take 1/8!!!! mg of klonipin a day for crying out loud. I also take provigil or I would sleep all day from the ssri. I have never desired to increase my provigil to get a greater and greater buzz, it would not work that way anyway. I think I have deprived myself of good appropriate help for these many years due to my interpretation of what the purists have said. I "should" be able to live at peace with only the help of God and the program. Well, I just can't seem to do that and I have spent years beating myself up for it. I am hopefully at a point now where I can except that I must have these drugs to live a decent life, that my use of them is legitimate, and that I am not abusing them or trying to escape reality, blah blah blah. I am considering stopping going to AA but I do not want to do that really. It is a wonderful program, the only thing that would have gotten me sober and kept me sober for so long. It would just be a knee jerk reaction in the opposite direction to stop. so I won't. No one in AA has ever told me what I could do or not do, it is all my internalization. I am, after all, not well :-)
Thanks for giving me a forum to vent this. I hope it helps someone, it has helped me, I haven't known where to go with this.
Posted by Rayray on October 5, 2004, at 17:29:48
In reply to Re: AA Recovery and Benzodiazepines, posted by Donna Louise on October 5, 2004, at 13:37:24
Hi Donna --
I'm glad you found some help through this thread. After all the motto of AA is: "To Thine OWN Self Be True." Don't give up on AA, though, but do consider switching groups if the "zealots" continue to meddle and judge what you do. You don't need them contradicting your pdoc's advice. Ignorance does not need to be contagious.
Here's a saying I heard that you might like: "People who matter don't judge, and people who judge don't matter." Pithy, huh?
Good luck,
Ray
Posted by Donna Louise on October 5, 2004, at 21:37:30
In reply to Re: AA Recovery and Benzodiazepines, posted by Rayray on October 5, 2004, at 17:29:48
> Hi Donna --
>
> I'm glad you found some help through this thread. After all the motto of AA is: "To Thine OWN Self Be True." Don't give up on AA, though, but do consider switching groups if the "zealots" continue to meddle and judge what you do. You don't need them contradicting your pdoc's advice. Ignorance does not need to be contagious.
>
> Here's a saying I heard that you might like: "People who matter don't judge, and people who judge don't matter." Pithy, huh?
>
> Good luck,
>
> Ray
>
>
Thanks Ray, I do like the pithy saying. It is helpful. I know it is not AA causing me these conflicts. It is me, what I have selectively heard, believed and internalized. My friends in AA do not judge, most take meds themselves. It is egoistic of me to think that I could be the one to overcome mental illness with superior spirituality. Ha. Yet that is the burden I have put on myself. However, I do not know if I will ever overcome this guilt and fear I have for taking a stupid 1/8 mg of klonipin. I am hopeful this particular forum will continue to be helpful to me in this area. Or "should" I have fear and guilt???? See what I mean? Agh.
I won't quit AA. But I need to quit the guilt and fear...I think. See why I need the meds?
This is the end of the thread.
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