![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 9 of 9. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by jane d on December 23, 2013, at 0:37:26
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-- Lou's Little Shoppe-, posted by Willful on December 19, 2013, at 12:00:45
> But as I'm sure you know historically women have received far less education-- or no education-- by the way, this still goes on in many countries--
>
> and had far fewer opportunites to have experiences, to have access to publication, to be able to develop their ideas-- or even access to a milieu where they were involved in the production of ideas-- they have been barred acess to occupations, positions, etc
>
> So it's hardly a mystery why they're produced far less philosophy, literature, etc than men.
>
> Even today, the same paper, or identical resumes, presented as a man's and a women's yields far more and far better publications and job offers for the man than for the woman. So it's not that the harms are in the far distant past. And anyway, at what point do you think women started to be accepted to law schools, medical schools, the top academic institutions of the country?
>
> Do you have a clear sense of the history here?
>
> I dont know about Australia, but I do know about the US-- and these things happened in the very very recent past. Maybe you need to read a bit about hese things. It might change your sense of your historic situation.
>
>
I just saw this quote in the obituary of Janet Rowland who helped find basis of cancer in genetic mutations."After receiving her bachelors degree at 19, she was accepted to the universitys medical school but was told she would have to wait nine months to enroll: the school had already accepted its quota of women for the year three in a class of 65. "
That would have been at Chicago in about 1945.
That's a little before my time but not so much. It certainly shaped who was available to teach me 30 years ago. And that has in turn shaped who is available for students to be taught by and look up to even now. And things have changed tremendously for the better in the last 30 years.
Posted by alexandra_k on December 23, 2013, at 0:37:26
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-- Lou's Little Shoppe-, posted by Willful on December 19, 2013, at 12:00:45
> But as I'm sure you know historically women have received far less education-- or no education-- by the way, this still goes on in many countries--
yeah. and if parents need to choose which of their children goes to school (because they can't afford to send both, for example) they usually send the boy. even though if you educate the girls they are more likely to pass that onto their kids... that is one thought, anyway.
> So it's hardly a mystery why they're produced far less philosophy, literature, etc than men.
yes. also... while i need to read up more on this... women are still involved in a continuous cycle of popping out kids in many parts of the world, which impacts on time available, rather. i need to look into things more... birth control pill has only been available since... 60's???
> Even today, the same paper, or identical resumes, presented as a man's and a women's yields far more and far better publications and job offers for the man than for the woman.i am not sure about this one. many universities have affirmative action plans in place - which i actually have mixed feelings about. especially for areas that are considered to be 'under-represented' by women (e.g., physics, engineering, philosophy).
why are some fields over-represented with women (e.g., english literature, history?)
?
one of the issues is: how many less publications would make a female a comperable candidate given that she's had a few years out to have / look after kids?
my undergraduate university was distinctive in having more females full time on staff than males in my field. perhaps the only university in the western world where this was the case... so as an undergraduate i never thought of philosophy as being a particularly male dominated field.
in australia... there was one visiting female when i arrived. and then there was another. more women came later... but it was fairly male dominated, yeah. question time was... verbal sparring to be sure.
when i visited the US the place i visited had an affirmative action plan where half of their new PhD students were female. apparently this was NOT a policy they were going with for new hires, however. The women there were big on their meetings for women as an oppressed minority group etc etc etc.
i just...
felt sorry for the single black guy in the department. who was such a minority he didn't even get to muster anything like a 'minority group'.
this last conference... i think partly it is just because the NZ division conference is smaller... but it felt friendlier than many. more people trying to amplify / help rather than people trying to poke holes / critique. i... feel wary about assigning questioning styles to gender... i... well... i guess i'm more 'male brained' than most girls (if that makes sense) which is partly what made physiotherapy so hard, i think... and why i prefer weights in the gym... but the supportive questioning was nice... i thought.
i guess the verbal sparring is about getting to know each other. so you get to practice your skills against more hostile threats from without. and you know when to step in to support vs when to let the person handle themself as you get to know them... i don't know...
i am starting to think that i floundered rather in the less supportive environment. i think mostly i should have persisted more in asking *why* they were having problems with my work... tried to get them to articulate that in a way i could understand...
learning development people did try and help, to be fair. only... i didn't know what the problem was... thought it was my bad character / they couldn't really help me.
too late now.
i think.
Posted by alexandra_k on December 23, 2013, at 0:37:26
In reply to Women and academics » Willful, posted by jane d on December 21, 2013, at 16:12:53
imagine what it must be like going from a small pacific island community to a university of, like, 40,000...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TthvvFIptAY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmkj4cJ-4_c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2n1yK-ixZ4
this is probably really a bad thing to say but... my european standards... the 'best' of Maaori... or the interface between european and Maaori...
(no department of tourism required)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Zh-ExTXoLI
yay samoa (pacifica)
we had morning / afternoon tea in the fale for conference.
compare:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPBXulIlnDI
truss building... cooooooooool
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOrJ1sHtSU4
the best chance we (europeans, roughly) have of understanding the strongest / most 'integrated' pacific island community:
Posted by alexandra_k on December 23, 2013, at 0:37:27
In reply to Re: Women and academics, posted by alexandra_k on December 21, 2013, at 23:18:44
highlight:
the too brief segment on what Maaori have to offer
(on Maaori way of life)
Posted by Willful on December 23, 2013, at 0:37:27
In reply to Women and academics » Willful, posted by jane d on December 21, 2013, at 16:12:53
Just to give two of the most outstanding examples--of people who are still alive, one of whom is presently on the Supreme Court--so we are not talking ancient history:
The future Supreme Court Justices Sandra Day O'Connor and Ruth Bader Ginsberg, although you might not have know it, were subject to a great bit of gender discrimination through out most of their careers:
"In 1946...[O'Connor]... completed a dual-degree, seven-year program in six years receiving a bachelors in economics in 1950 and a law degree in 1952. he graduated third in her class, but could not get a job as a lawyer because of her gender. She was offered a position as a legal secretary, which did not match her education, training, or ability. She did not accept this position....
...In 1950 Harvard Law School opened to women and fourteen joined the class of 520 men. They were invited to speak only on "Ladies Day," a single class that met once each month, they were allowed to eat in the graduate cafeteria, [ie not the Law School Cafeteria] and one ladies room was added in the basement of Austin Hall. Dorms opened to women eight years later.In 1954 Ruth Bader Ginsburg entered Harvard Law School as one of nine women in a class over 500. Of these women Dean Erwin Griswold asked what it felt like to occupy places that could have gone to deserving men. When her husband joined a law firm in New York, Ginsberg transferred to Columbia Law School where she graduated first in her 1959 class. No law firm offered her a job.
In 1960 Supreme Court Justice Felix Frankfurter was asked to consider hiring Ginsburg as one of his law clerks. He refused to interview her acknowledging he was just not ready to hire a woman. Ginsburg taught at Rutgers and Columbia."
(Sources:
-Cynthia Fuchs Epstein Women in law, ;
-www.politico.com/news/stories/0909/27152.html;
-Jeffrey Toobin The Nine: Inside The Secret World of the Supreme Court,
-Robert Stevens Law school: legal education in America from the 1850s to the 1980s, ;
-Professor Cunnea,A Timeline of Women's Legal History).
But O'Connor and Ginsberg are only the most visible of a whole generation of women, most of whom were outright rejected as women, who were pioneers in opening up Law Schools to women in general. It was only later that appreciable numbers of women were accepted into American law schools.
Posted by baseball55 on December 23, 2013, at 22:04:10
In reply to Re: Women and academics, posted by Willful on December 23, 2013, at 0:37:27
My field is dominated by men. When I first finished my PhD (this was 1994, not that long ago), I was offered a job at a university that had 17 faculty, only one female. I was offered the job only after three men had declined offers. When I refused, they had the sole female faculty member call me to assure me the department was not sexist and hostile to women. Yeah, right.
I now teach in a department that takes affirmative action seriously. Half the faculty are female. But the field is still male-dominated. My undergraduate classes, with thirty students, usually have no more than 6-7 women.
And, of course, as an undergraduate and graduate student, I had virtually no female professors. One in undergraduate. One in graduate school.
Today, half of all medical school students and law students are women. But the faculty are still mostly male.
Posted by alexandra_k on December 23, 2013, at 22:25:45
In reply to Re: Women and academics, posted by baseball55 on December 23, 2013, at 22:04:10
econ?
Posted by baseball55 on December 24, 2013, at 22:20:33
In reply to Re: Women and academics, posted by alexandra_k on December 23, 2013, at 22:25:45
> econ?
Yes. Merry Christmas or whatever.
Posted by alexandra_k on December 27, 2013, at 20:23:54
In reply to Re: Women and academics » alexandra_k, posted by baseball55 on December 24, 2013, at 22:20:33
to you, too. i am sorry i don't get to take macro-econ. i have been thinking about economics for a while now... done a little behavioral economics in psychology (to do with trying to predict motor response) and in philosophy, too (prisoner's dilemma / co-operative dilemma stuff. also a bit of human behavioral ecology part of which considers human behaviour from an optimality model pov).
i... economics... macro economics... is one of those things that i feel like i don't understand. how dollars get their value. how that varies across countries. the exchange rate. how that works. i don't understand. i think macro economics 101 is probably just what i need but... i can't do a class with a clash. i mean... they don't want us to - but more than that... i know the value of attending lectures.
calculus is about graphs, huh. relationships between variables / input-output functions. i think... a lot of what i know already... i think that what i know is approximations of more precise concepts. i am excited to get to learn these more precise concepts. to... come up with more specific / more predictive / more accurate models / understanding.
if the maths goes well... and medicine doesn't work out... i think i'd like to to bio-medical engineering.
i could grow me a foot! f*ck yeah!
(i jest)
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Social | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.