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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by hyperfocus on October 3, 2011, at 12:44:26
I started reading the Count of Monte Cristo and thinking about people like Jamey Rodemeyer and what his parents must feel now after their 14-year old son took his own life because of bullying. A lot of us have had to live through a huge amount of pain and suffering in our lives because of the things that other people have done to us. We should be fortunate we're still alive after so many chose to end theirs; still several times during the day I feel like Edmond Dantes, locked away in prison for so many years for the lone crime of being too trusting of his friends and too vulnerable .
So suppose you acquired the wealth or means to exact 10-fold retribution on your tormentors for what they did to you with zero risk to your own self. Suppose you were Jamey Rodemeyer's father or mother and you were given the means to destroy every one of the people who destroyed your son; to take every single thing away from them till life itself became a torment, just as they did to your son. Would you take it? Or would you instead wait and hope for for some sort of cosmic equalization or divine justice?
I'm only on the first few chapters (so don't spoil it for me) but Dantes seems to be someone who didn't have any evil thoughts about anyone, until this terrible betrayal and crime was perpetrated against him. His retribution sweeps up innocent people, like the son of the woman who he loved. So is it that retribution lowers you to the level of your enemies? I really don't know what I would do - many, many times I feel like I would take the opportunity to exact retribution on people who hurt me so badly.
Posted by Dinah on October 3, 2011, at 15:23:40
In reply to Retribution, posted by hyperfocus on October 3, 2011, at 12:44:26
Ugh. No.
My only consolation is that I am nothing at all like the people who bullied me.
If I stooped to retribution, I would feel as much contempt for myself as I feel for them.
Tho I admit to feeling some understanding as to why people would do dreadful things to bullies. School is such an insular world. There isn't any of the perspective there is in the real world. It feels as if everyone is out to torment you, and it will never ever end. You can't get away from it.
What I'd like to see is administration and teaching staff being held accountable. They say that kids will be kids but that's nonsense. I'd like to see what would happen if there were bullies in the teacher's lounge. There would be a lawsuit the next day concerning a hostile workplace. How would the principal like to be followed around and tormented? Have scurrilous rumors started among his peers? Have his face slammed into a locker perhaps?
It will happen as long as those in charge allow it to happen. The teachers at my school were as much if not more to blame for what happened to me than the bullies were.
Children have the same right to be protected from a hostile workplace as adults do.
Posted by Christ_empowered on October 3, 2011, at 22:01:43
In reply to Re: Retribution, posted by Dinah on October 3, 2011, at 15:23:40
I wouldn't pursue revenge because of my religious beliefs. Left to my own device, I'd be all about some rage-fueled retribution.
Posted by sigismund on October 4, 2011, at 10:07:37
In reply to Re: Retribution, posted by Dinah on October 3, 2011, at 15:23:40
>It will happen as long as those in charge allow it to happen.
I felt that the way the kids treated each other reflected the way the adults treated the kids, more or less.
Posted by Phillipa on October 4, 2011, at 11:03:23
In reply to Re: Retribution, posted by sigismund on October 4, 2011, at 10:07:37
I was never bullied. I never saw it s a kid either wonder why? Phillipa
Posted by sleepygirl2 on October 4, 2011, at 22:10:41
In reply to Retribution, posted by hyperfocus on October 3, 2011, at 12:44:26
Hmmm...revenge
People have surely been unkind, even cruel to me.
When people have nothing to lose, cannot benefit from another (perhaps due to their perceived "rank" in the social hierarchy), and they are motivated to find a scapegoat, the there is a recipe for sadism.
No one could empathize with someone objectionable, and so unlike themselves right? (insert sarcasm)
I remember being afraid to leave my house, when it was likely that I'd be ridiculed or even assaulted just trying to get home. Home was surely no refuge.
I'm listening to "Jane eyre" right now. Don't spoil it if you've read it!!
...but it hits home with my experience of being the outcast.
Revenge? I've tried so hard to forget. The best revenge is living well right? and not succumbing, somehow? To all that shame.
I only saw the movie version of the count of Monte cristo, probably leaves out a lot.
Posted by Dinah on October 5, 2011, at 8:47:46
In reply to Re: Retribution, posted by Phillipa on October 4, 2011, at 11:03:23
Picture the oddest kid in your class. The one with glasses, or overweight, or a bad complexion, or very socially awkward. Or the skinny kid with the weird glasses and skirts too long and socks that never would stay at knee high level. You don't ever remember seeing others treating that kid badly? You never treated that kid badly?
Either you grew up in paradise, or your school was abnormally anti-bullying for the time, or you had no particular reason to remember.
I was that skinny kid. I have every reason to remember. I remember it even before I was that skinny kid. I'd stand between those who would taunt and torment and the recipients of the abuse. My mama didn't tolerate that sort of behavior, and she taught me not to tolerate it either.
The bullies' mothers didn't bring them up nearly well enough.
Posted by Phillipa on October 5, 2011, at 10:27:19
In reply to Re: Retribution » Phillipa, posted by Dinah on October 5, 2011, at 8:47:46
I was pretty Geeky especially around l0-12. But no one bothered me or said things. For some reason it just didn't seem to happen to me or others? Even as got older higher grades in school never saw it happen. We just all accepted each other? Phillipa
Posted by Christ_empowered on October 5, 2011, at 14:38:58
In reply to Re: Retribution » Dinah, posted by Phillipa on October 5, 2011, at 10:27:19
I was kind of bullied, but it was all behind my back. I think since I came from a "good family" and was in all the gifted and honors classes, people didn't say anything to my face. That and for all 3 years of HS (I graduated early--just couldn't take it anymore), I kind of kept to myself and just did what I had to do. Plus, its the South; even in HS, most people had enough manners to avoid in-your-face bullying.
Posted by hyperfocus on October 5, 2011, at 17:53:52
In reply to Re: Retribution, posted by Dinah on October 3, 2011, at 15:23:40
> If I stooped to retribution, I would feel as much contempt for myself as I feel for them.
That's how I feel too I guess...when I'm lucid. When I get these awful shame attacks I feel like no punishment would be bad enough for the people who hurt me. Getting your face slammed into a locker or having rumors started about you is a long way off from committing suicide or having lifelong mental illness. If you get angry with someone and hit them with a brick you will still get charged with manslaughter or wounding with intent, regardless of whether or not you wanted to kill or disable them. I guess it's not so much retribution I want as justice.
> Tho I admit to feeling some understanding as to why people would do dreadful things to bullies. School is such an insular world. There isn't any of the perspective there is in the real world. It feels as if everyone is out to torment you, and it will never ever end. You can't get away from it.
I'm not really sure it's so insular and exceptional. Seems to me like people will gang up and take advantage of you if they can, wherever you go in life. Workplace bullying or community scapegoating is very prevalent. Just like CE said it can be lawyers, engineers, doctors, even your own doctor. I admit it can happen unconsciously where we don't even think we're doing something wrong - think Boo Radley and the Radley family from To Kill a Mockingbird. But it just seems to me that some or most people have a real keen desire just to hurt other people regardless. That's what I was asking in the last thread - if there's some sort of evolutionary instinct for people to band together and pick off the weakest. Most people on their own would not feel capable of hanging and castrating a man or putting a burning tire around his neck. But get 10-15 people together in a group and it's like there's no evil they're incapable of doing.
Posted by hyperfocus on October 5, 2011, at 17:59:57
In reply to Re: Retribution, posted by Christ_empowered on October 3, 2011, at 22:01:43
I'm sorry about the alienation and estrangement you had to go through CE - believe me I know it can be like the worst feeling in the world. But we can't control what other people say or do to us; all we can control our own thoughts and actions and what is in our own hearts.
Posted by floatingbridge on October 5, 2011, at 18:17:40
In reply to Retribution, posted by hyperfocus on October 3, 2011, at 12:44:26
I realize this thread is about bullying, but it did mention being a parent.
Until then, I was all cool with this retribution thing regarding myself.
However, bring my kid into it, and I all restraint flies out the window.
Regarding Rodemeyers' parents, I do not know how they are
handling his death. I would not want the death penalty, but I imagine I would take the hatred and grief I would feel to my deathbed.
Posted by floatingbridge on October 7, 2011, at 21:41:33
In reply to Re: Retribution » hyperfocus, posted by floatingbridge on October 5, 2011, at 18:17:40
Nothing kills a thread faster than having a post's closing word be 'deathbed'.
More about Rodemeyer. Did his parents know he was being tormented about being gay? Did they support their son as he navigated his nascent sexual identity?
I am thinking of a friend who's parents were very, very angry that she was gay by age 14. It was not a good scene.
I don't know much about the his life, but I feel very sad that he felt so alone at the end.
I don't know about other places in the world, but homophobia is very alive in the States.
Posted by hyperfocus on October 8, 2011, at 15:40:01
In reply to Re: Retribution » floatingbridge, posted by floatingbridge on October 7, 2011, at 21:41:33
lol you didn't kill anything fb, it's just a difficult thing to consider for most people, especially with children. I think any parent would feel exactly as you did in your post.
He was out and I believe his parents supported him and they did know about him tormented because a lot of it was on Facebook and social networking sites. With today's technology, bullying doesn't stop when you go home. But he had a youtube channel where he posted videos of him dancing to Lady Gaga songs and made a video for It Get's Better and he had good friends who supported him and I guess everybody thought he ok. But just like in a lot of bullying suicides some critical thing inside him snapped one day and he decided to end his life. I read an article that said the people the most likely to go through with suicide are the impulsive ones, not the depressed ones. Being 13 or 14 or 15 sort of defines impulsive - a lot of bullying suicide victims are this age.
It wasn't all homophobia - I don't think kids that age even understand homophobia. It was just straight hatred towards somebody different and vulnerable. When I was his age calling someone a f----- was like the worst insult in the world and was used against me a lot. It had nothing to do with sexuality per se. There are just a lot of people in the world who like to join together and inflict pain on other people and take pleasure in someones humiliation - that's all it is. But we could at least go home and escape it. In today's world Facebook and Tumblr et.al can multiply the hatred till it seems like the whole world is against you, especially if you're 14 or 15.
Posted by floatingbridge on October 8, 2011, at 16:32:16
In reply to Re: Retribution » floatingbridge, posted by hyperfocus on October 8, 2011, at 15:40:01
Last week my therapist used the term, 'mom-crazy'. She made it up on the spot, but it expressed something she said she observed in clients and herself that mothers (in general) tend to be more reactive and vigilant regarding their children (this is a broad generalization). I looked at my post just now and realized I was picking apart the story like a who-dunit. That somewhere, someone is responsible. Because if I can figure out this boy's story, I could ward off anything similar happening to my own child. I still feel very sad thinking about that boy. And you are right. 14 or whatever is such an impulsive age.
(Keeping a child's computer and computer access to a common room can help ward off the vulnerabilities the online world fosters.)
Anyways, my therapist was trying to get me to see that I cannot always protect my child from suffering. Like the young Siddhartha. I can spin that into, well, if I work diligently at recovery, I will be all the wiser and here for my son. Which is true and also mom-crazy.
Regarding homophobia, I feel like it's still important to remove as many sharp objects out of reach as reach. Cruelty seems an inevitable part of human potential, but the least harmful terms (or complicated) the better. I think that kids that use such terms as f*gg*t have an inkling of the meaning. Because kids get these words from the adults around them.
I think fat, stupid, and ugly are sticks and stones enough. But then, I think we were better off without gunpowder, too....
Posted by sigismund on October 10, 2011, at 7:58:36
In reply to Re: Retribution » Dinah, posted by hyperfocus on October 5, 2011, at 17:53:52
> Most people on their own would not feel capable of hanging and castrating a man or putting a burning tire around his neck. But get 10-15 people together in a group and it's like there's no evil they're incapable of doing.
Of course. Doing it together normalises it. There must be, or at least one will always think so, perfectly good reasons for doing evil if everyone else is doing it. Or they will tell you it is necessary, or for a good reason or something. It has been going on forever.
Posted by sigismund on October 10, 2011, at 8:04:43
In reply to Re: Retribution » floatingbridge, posted by floatingbridge on October 7, 2011, at 21:41:33
People who become angry when their children turn out to be gay puzzle me.
It always feels as if they do not have enough to worry about.
Their kid could be dead, or mad, or in jail, or drug addicted, or sick.
I do understand it really, because I come from there, but it seems a profoundly misguided and ignorant position.
Posted by sigismund on October 10, 2011, at 8:14:54
In reply to Re: Retribution » floatingbridge, posted by hyperfocus on October 8, 2011, at 15:40:01
>I read an article that said the people the most likely to go through with suicide are the impulsive ones, not the depressed ones
My best friend at school no doubt turned out to be gay. He was always good at leaving before things got nasty or bad. In 1972 or so he threw himself over an overpass in the path of a train. I say no doubt turned out to be gay, because we never saw each other after school. There would have been drugs and the usual problems with sanity and sexuality. He was a gem, and I will always miss him. I wish I had made this clear to him while he was alive.
Posted by Phillipa on October 10, 2011, at 19:26:27
In reply to Re: Retribution, posted by sigismund on October 10, 2011, at 8:14:54
Sigi as you know I do agree l00% with you. Not a choice. It just is and what's wrong with this? Nothing in my opinion. PJ x
Posted by sigismund on October 11, 2011, at 4:20:30
In reply to Re: Retribution » sigismund, posted by Phillipa on October 10, 2011, at 19:26:27
Yes, and it is all because they don't live up to your (tired, tedious) expectations. And what expectations! Not that they be happy, or lead a good life, but so you can feel good that they are normal or some kind of crap like that. And where did that come from? God knows, some magazine way back when.
My daughter put it well to me when we were discussing the importance of contraception prevent teenage pregancy to .....'It's not as if I'd be a heroin addict or living on the streets'.....and she was right.
These are lovely kids and even nicer when treated kindly.
This is the end of the thread.
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