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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by alexandra_k on November 6, 2010, at 21:05:11
So apparently most of the gains aren't made in the gym. They are made when your body recovers from what you did in the gym. 'There is no such thing as over-training only under-recovery'. So... SInce steriods / growth hormones are out I guess I'm going to have to:
- Get serious about sleeping at least 8 1/2 hours a day.
This seems like a lot to me. I usually get around 7. But then I usually need one 13 hour sleep about once a week or I get cranky. I'm going to try this instead for a while.
- Quit smoking. Will do (next week or so)
- Get serious about nutrition.
Still learning about this... Not aiming for perfection at this point. Just sustainability. Not counting calories at this point either. Just aiming for displacing nutritionally empty food with nutritionally rich(er) foods. Currently:
SHOPPING LIST
(Meal #1 - most substantive - 5/6 meals per day snacks included)
Rolled oats (retain natural bran)
Seasonal fruit (bananas, berries, apples etc - doubles for snacks)
Yoghurt (the most bio-active one I can get that tastes good)Topping either:
Almonds
Peanuts
Mixed / other nuts (nuts double for snacks - go easy on cashews in particular)
85% chocolate (1 square grated)
Dried fruit if out of seasonal (dates, apricots, sultanas). Know I need to limit this but doubles as snacks.(Other meals)
Salad made from seasonal veges (I don't cook!!!):
Broccoli (aim for 1 cup per day)
Carrot (doubles for snacks)
Lettuce / Spinach
Beans
Snow Peas
(Whatever is cheapish, really)Topping:
Olive oil
Lemon or Lime juice (not bad concentrates in squeeze bottles)
Fresh herbs if I've got them or dried basil if not
Freshly ground sea salt and cracked pepperProtein:
Feta. Going easy on this, though.
Fish. Tinned fish really cheap at one of the stores here. Tuna. Salmon. Add to salad.
Roast chicken. Can get a whole chicken not to expensive. Add to salad (does a couple days)Sometimes bread (say one loaf every couple weeks.
http://www.burgen.com.au/range/pumpkin_seeds.aspx
I couldn't find anything like that in the US (bread with whole grains that didn't have lots of sugar / raisin juice / salt added).Other snack stuff:
Vitawheet crackers. Don't know if you guys can get 'em. They aren't terrific (hey, the come in a box) but they aren't too(ooo) bad. Top with:
Aged cheddar. Can't bear to give up: http://www.fonterrafoodservices.co.nz/index.php?option=com_ffpr&view=product&id=165&Itemid=5&manufacture=0
(MUCH cheaper here than in the US, believe me its one of the things I missed the most)
Herrings in tomato sauce (good old Aldi - 65c a can)
Vegemite (takes care of salt cravings)
Sunflower seeds.Coffee. 'Nuff said.
Green tea. About 6 cups per day for anti-oxidant effect, they reckon. Need to find a decaffeinated one (no luck thus far).
Water. Need to drink more. Adding a teaspoon of lemon / lime juice helps considerably.
Milo. I'm a milo-aholic. Not sure if you guys get this: http://www.milo.com.au/products/milo.html It's not amazing (comes in a box) but there are worse things... It is pretty much a snack / small meal, I reckon (Ya gotta use about 3 tablespoons for good flavor).
Protein powder (though need a better one). Mixed with milk. I go through about 4 litres of milk a week._________________________________________
SUPPLEMENTS:
Fish oil. Currently:
http://ethicalnutrients.com.au/content/how-much-omega-3-fish-oil-do-you-need-arthritis
Expensive. Tasted like crap (like really dense olive oil with a fishy / fruity flavor). Have experimented with it, though, and it REALLY DOES AID IN ALLEVIATING JOINT PAIN / CREAKY-NESS. At least it does for me.I'd like to try glucosamine next - but that is even more expensive...
Wish list / todo list:
Find a good protein powder. I'm going to drink it with whole milk so doesn't need to be super fast acting or anything like that (milk slows the absorption) but I want one that isn't soy based (high in estrogens) and that isn't mostly carbs / sugar (which my current one is because I didn't know what I was looking for).
Eggs. Need to venture into the kitchen and cook some damned eggs. Meat, too. Steak etc. I'm aware that my shopping list is a bit protein deprived :-( But I do hate to cook.
Cottage cheese. The taste ain't bad. But the texture is not nice to me. I tried to smash it up with a spoon but no luck. I need a magic bullet or something like that...
Chick peas. Beans. Need to do more with these.
Flax seeds. Got some. Need something to grind them up in. Ideally something that will mash the cottage cheese and blend protein shakes. And that I can wash in my smallish sink in my room...
Anyway... Thats me for now.
Not going to do BJJ because I'm in danger of overtraining with the oly lifting. Also... The summer one seems very MMA focused (required gear: Rash shirt, board shorts, mouthguard, MMA gloves, judo gi). Sounds a bit hard-core for me...
PB's since last time:
Front squat 40kg
Snatch 30kg
Posted by alexandra_k on November 6, 2010, at 21:32:07
In reply to Nutrition, posted by alexandra_k on November 6, 2010, at 21:05:11
forgot about:
tomato
avocado
cucumber
Posted by alexandra_k on November 6, 2010, at 21:47:18
In reply to Re: Nutrition, posted by alexandra_k on November 6, 2010, at 21:32:07
My inspiration came from here (you might want to scroll down to 'and what have we learned, kiddies?' if you don't want to read about how cornflakes were invented as a proposed cure for masturbation:
Posted by Free on November 6, 2010, at 23:27:02
In reply to Nutrition, posted by alexandra_k on November 6, 2010, at 21:05:11
> So apparently most of the gains aren't made in the gym. They are made when your body recovers from what you did in the gym. 'There is no such thing as over-training only under-recovery'. So...
>Yeah, the gains are made during the healing process. That was the excuse I used to sit on the couch all day today after punishing myself with a grueling workout yesterday. :-)
You really have a fantastic plan, Alex. I like that it's practical and do-able. And it seems well planned out and customized to your lifestyle. I think that individualized plans end up being more successful. I haven't been counting calories either. I've found that I don't have to as long as I eat healthy foods in moderation and exercise consistently.
I quit smoking about 3 months ago, and I have a pretty good nutrition and workout regimen, but I only sleep around 4 hours per night. How do you get 7 - 13 hours of sleep? Do you take any sleep aids?
Posted by Free on November 6, 2010, at 23:42:15
In reply to Re: Nutrition, posted by alexandra_k on November 6, 2010, at 21:47:18
> My inspiration came from here (you might want to scroll down to 'and what have we learned, kiddies?' if you don't want to read about how cornflakes were invented as a proposed cure for masturbation:
>
> http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_nutrition/the_history_of_dieting_and_take_home_lessons&cr=Okay. I will never look at Kellogg's Corn Flakes the same way again. No to anesthetic and yes to carbolic acid? Yikes.
Posted by alexandra_k on November 7, 2010, at 0:47:13
In reply to Re: Nutrition, posted by Free on November 6, 2010, at 23:27:02
I don't like to wake up in the morning. Well, sometimes I wake up around 3am for food, but aside from that I have no trouble sleeping in. Don't usually need to start my day at any particular time so lucky there.
Have no trouble getting to sleep on the nights that I train in the evenings (though sometimes am a little amped so might take a valium). Hot shower some milo and I can hardly keep my eyes open. So now its just a matter of going to sleep then instead of fighting it.
Congrats on quitting smoking! Be joining you soon :-)
Posted by SLS on November 7, 2010, at 5:53:02
In reply to Nutrition, posted by alexandra_k on November 6, 2010, at 21:05:11
> 'There is no such thing as over-training only under-recovery'
My study of bodybuilding and exercise physiology indicates that this is not true. Overtraining is one of the most common mistakes a bodybuilder can make. Overtraining can very easily overwhelm and exceed the body's capacity to recover, regardless of the enhancements used to facilitate recovery.
If you find yourself experiencing diminishing returns despite how hard you work, you might consider the cause to be overtraining rather than laziness or failure to train properly.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on November 7, 2010, at 19:13:44
In reply to Re: Nutrition » alexandra_k, posted by SLS on November 7, 2010, at 5:53:02
Yes true and alternate weight lifting with cardio. Phillipa glad I don't like cornflakes
Posted by alexandra_k on November 7, 2010, at 20:33:47
In reply to Re: Nutrition, posted by Phillipa on November 7, 2010, at 19:13:44
> alternate weight lifting with cardio
why?
Posted by alexandra_k on November 7, 2010, at 20:43:57
In reply to Re: Nutrition » alexandra_k, posted by SLS on November 7, 2010, at 5:53:02
> Overtraining is one of the most common mistakes a bodybuilder can make.
Well... This dude disagrees with you:
I think that one of the most common mistakes a beginning / wannabe bodybuilder can make is to:
1) Start out on an 'advanced' bodybuilding program trying to build 'ript abz' or 'peaked biceps' when they don't have any basic lean body mass to work on shaping / sculpting. So in other words, not doing their squats, deadlifts, benches, rows, overhead presses, and pull-ups.
2) Lament that they are 'hard gainers' when they haven't been doing the above mentioned lifts (that release growth stimulating hormone and testosterone) and drinking their milk (i.e., eating enough food).
3) Think that you can retain a 6 pack while building muscle mass (e.g., bulk and cut at the same time)
I'm not aiming for increased muscle mass, though. I'm aiming to lift more in the snatch and clean and jerk. Bulgarian elite weightlifters train 6 times per day. To put some perspective on my training once per day...
Posted by alexandra_k on November 7, 2010, at 21:10:33
In reply to Re: Nutrition » Phillipa, posted by alexandra_k on November 7, 2010, at 20:33:47
> > alternate weight lifting with cardio
>
> why?
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/the_best_damn_cardio_article_period
I walk.Interval cardio interferes with my smoking (truth be told) and wipes me out for my lifting. I've decided that speed / strength is what I want to get better at (and improved body comp as largely a side effect).
Cardio (of the traditional sort) isn't the most effective way to lose fat.
Posted by Free on November 7, 2010, at 23:16:38
In reply to Re: Nutrition, posted by alexandra_k on November 7, 2010, at 21:10:33
> http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/the_best_damn_cardio_article_period
>
>
> I walk.
>
> Interval cardio interferes with my smoking (truth be told) and wipes me out for my lifting. I've decided that speed / strength is what I want to get better at (and improved body comp as largely a side effect).
>
> Cardio (of the traditional sort) isn't the most effective way to lose fat.
>
You know, come to think of it, he's right about the differences in the sprinter's and the marathon runner's physiques. I think he said the latter looks resident evilish. Lol.This is a great article, Alex, he really knows his stuff. After reading it, I'm glad I walked more than jogged during my jaunt around the park today. And I gotta get back to doing more strength training. I was so much leaner and stronger last year when my workout involved mostly (maybe 70-90%) anaerobic exercise/activity. I think I was less anxious and depressed when I had all that lean muscle to make me feel sort of "invincible". :)
If this guy, Nate, lived in my city, I would hire him as my trainer on the spot! Thanks for putting up the article. I'm motivated.
Posted by alexandra_k on November 8, 2010, at 3:31:42
In reply to Re: Nutrition » alexandra_k, posted by Free on November 7, 2010, at 23:16:38
It really is an awesome website. I've learned so much from there. The articles are wonderful (from a variety of authors including powerlifters, olympic lifters, bodybuilders, strength and conditioning coaches, strongmen/women, physiotherapists, nutritionists etc etc etc).
Sometimes the different articles / authors do have differences of opinion, though. There are controversies around overtraining and cardio etc.
They are sponsored by bio-test, though (hence the supplement plugs - I believe what they say about supplements but there are cheaper alternative brands). They get the sponsorship in part by getting lots of hits from people wanting to view the soft porn (aka 'figure athletes'). So you do have to put up with that, a bit, and lots of pics of far from natural bodybuilders.
The forums are a bit more variable (some amazingly knowledgeable people and some ignorant teenagers). Still... I've found it well worth sorting through the crap (and incivility) to read some really cutting edge stuff from people who seem to really know what they are talking about (based on their personal achievements, results with others, and credentials).
Best thing I've found on the web for a long time.
Posted by alexandra_k on November 8, 2010, at 3:36:24
In reply to Re: Nutrition » alexandra_k, posted by Free on November 7, 2010, at 23:16:38
I think there is probably a middle way between our views SLS. I have been working harder on my recovery (eating, sleeping) over the weekend. I also had some time off from the gym (light yoga on Sat and nothing on Sun).
Monday training:
Hit a PR of snatching 32.5kg! Missed the first attempt, got the second one solid as a rock. Only 2.5kg off the 'big peoples plates' (the smallest set of bumpers). Woo hoo!!!
I'm going to continue on with eating etc... But I'm also going to experiment with light technique work rather than lifting heavy every 2nd day. If I get 35kg next Monday I will be one happy camper indeed!
Posted by SLS on November 9, 2010, at 8:37:30
In reply to Re: Nutrition » SLS, posted by alexandra_k on November 7, 2010, at 20:43:57
> > Overtraining is one of the most common mistakes a bodybuilder can make.
> Well... This dude disagrees with you:...and a whole lot of other educated and experienced trainers, athletes, and exercise physiologists. Perhaps my education is old school, but recognizing overtraining in myself has been very helpful to remedy a condition of diminishing returns. Google "weight lifting overtraining" and "powerlifting overtraining" if you would like to see more modern thought on the issue of overtraining.
I can't speak intelligently on the training modalities used in Olympic style powerlifting. I know very little about it.
Well, if you are maintaining progress, I guess that's all that matters.
- Scott
Posted by alexandra_k on November 12, 2010, at 20:26:27
In reply to Re: Nutrition » alexandra_k, posted by SLS on November 9, 2010, at 8:37:30
I have looked into it a fair bit. 'Overtraining' and also 'adrenal fatigue' and also 'CNS overload / burnout / fatigue'
There are a whole bunch of opinions out there...
So... It is a matter of seeing WHO is saying what and WHAT GROUNDS they have for the claims they have made (i.e., personal experience? over how long - did they keep logs of their performance etc? multiple personal experience (e.g., via experience in coaching multiple athletes - for which sports?), scientific evidence (does the claim follow from what they tested for and what was found and is that relevant to me at any rate)?
I've found t nation authors to be some of the most credible and the discussions there to be the highest quality cutting edge (giving due respect to different lines of evidence) thing there is. With all my searching for information on these issues on the web... This is the site that I keep coming back to as the most plausible / credible. But I guess others might find things different...
> recognizing overtraining in myself has been very helpful to remedy a condition of diminishing returns.
For muscle growth? (bulking?)
For cutting fat while retaining lean muscle mass?
What was your goal?
(If it wasn't more than the general 'to look better naked' then it is hard for me to comment because different people have different ideas of what would make them look better / worse)> I can't speak intelligently on the training modalities used in Olympic style powerlifting...
Powerlifting is one sport (contested lifts: back squat, bench press, deadlift) and olympic lifting is another (contested lifts: clean and jerk, snatch). The former is about LIMIT strength (how much weight you can move in each lift) whereas the latter is about POWER (the lifts physically have to be performed as powerfully / explosively as possible or you miss). Bodybuilding is about size and symmetry of muscle mass which is displayed with very low levels of bodyfat - so thats a different beast.
Posted by alexandra_k on November 12, 2010, at 20:44:56
In reply to Re: Nutrition, posted by alexandra_k on November 12, 2010, at 20:26:27
The more good lifts you do the more you do good lifts (your nervous system learns the motor program).
One thought on why the Bulgarians did so well was because they trained 6 times per day. So... They did the lifts many many many many many times more than those on alternative training schedules and that came through for them in the Olympics.
But conversely the more bad lifts you do the more your nervous system learns to lift badly. The odd one is inevitable (because you need to test how much you can lift or how many reps you can do so that you train hard enough to force your nervous system to adapt to the increased load / volume). But you do want to minimize bad lifting as much as possible.
I took last weekend off and had a WONDERFUL training session on Monday. The lifts felt smooth and easy and I got a new personal best. If that was the result of the two days off then it is worth my taking the two days off.
So... I guess I'm saying that I think you might well be right that I was overtraining in the sense that I can improve faster with training a bit less. Sure I could also do better with improving nutrition and sleep etc... But, hey, when did the answer ever need to be just one or the other?
Posted by alexandra_k on November 12, 2010, at 20:59:21
In reply to Re: Nutrition, posted by alexandra_k on November 12, 2010, at 20:44:56
(I am curious about what you were saying about your finding diminishing returns from overtraining. I don't at all mean to doubt your experience - rather, I'm interested in WHY that might have been the case. And, yeah, I'm pretty focused on the getting better at recovering aspect of dealing with overtraining, so my mind is ticking over with respect to those sorts of things that might have helped rather than cutting down on gym time. That is because I just LOVE going to the gym so consider that to be very much a last resort strategy - in case you hadn't guessed.)
:-)
Posted by Free on November 13, 2010, at 14:14:38
In reply to Nutrition, posted by alexandra_k on November 6, 2010, at 21:05:11
> - Get serious about nutrition
> .....
> Salad made from seasonal veges (I don't cook!!!):
>
Bean and Wild Rice Salad for Ms. Alex - who doesn't cook! :)
Ingredients:2 cups of any types and combination of beans you like (canned or
frozen or cooked -but this would involve cooking of course ;))
1.5 cups of corn (canned, frozen or fresh)
1 cup of soaked wild rice (or cooked)
10 chopped grape tomatoes and some whole ones to throw in
2 thin slices of red onion choppedDressing:
Extra Virgin Olive Oil
Lemon juice
Bit of Honey
Salt to taste
*I cook by feel and eyeball everything without measuring, so let me
know if you have trouble with the dressing.Mix all ingredients in a large bowl and let it sit over night in the
refrigerator or eat it fresh.Serve it over a bed of any greens you like.
I like organic spring mix of baby lettuces and chopped parsley.
(But you can use spinach, cucumber, snow peas...anything in season and on sale)Hope this works! :)
Posted by SLS on November 13, 2010, at 15:46:17
In reply to Re: Nutrition, posted by alexandra_k on November 12, 2010, at 20:44:56
> I took last weekend off and had a WONDERFUL training session on Monday.
:-)
Now, I'm sure that you knew that I would cite your experience as evidence of overtraining.
I am very familiar with this pattern of response to exercise. I have seen this sort of thing occur quite frequently with people who exercise the hardest - using a combination of high intensity and high volume. When I was instructing, people were incredulous that taking off a week from training could improve their performance. They usually thanked me after capitulating.
Some people use the principle of periodicity when training. I wish I could find the notebook that I used when I went to exercise physiology symposia. I trained a guy for a bodybuilding competition who followed this principle with both exercise and diet. For muscularity in physique, it is amazing what a little carbohydrate depletion can do when it is followed immediately by carbohydrate loading.
Now you have me interested in knowing what the latest research has to say about the processes that are involved in overtraining and recovery. Glycogen depletion? I really don't know.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on November 13, 2010, at 20:00:26
In reply to Re: Nutrition, posted by SLS on November 13, 2010, at 15:46:17
Scott the carbohydrate loading the night before a marathon was also common. Good question. Phillipa
This is the end of the thread.
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