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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Deneb on October 24, 2010, at 2:36:11
I read about this and I'm just so angry!
The Globe and Mail is one of Canada's national newspapers.
They say consent is implied, but the women who commented clearly say they didn't know pelvic exams by med students would be performed while they are under anesthesia.
It just sickens me. I wonder if the same happens to men for prostrate exams? I doubt it.
Ugh, I am hating the medical profession right now. It's just so wrong. They do them under anesthesia so that the women aren't embarrassed, but this is a huge violation! It borders on sexual assault in my mind.
I'm going to ask pdoc about what she knows about this. Hopefully she can help me not be so angry about this.
If I ever go to the hospital or need surgery or something, I am definitely making it clear that I don't want medical students poking/prodding, asking me questions or observing me. No offense to the medical students out there. I bet doctors don't let medical students perform medical procedures on them.
They can learn from the people who don't mind.
Argh, I'm just so freaking angry about this!
I'll also never donate my body to science. The thought of someone violating my body makes me sick. When med students cut up cadavers, they dissect EVERYTHING. You're probably going to look like you've been put through a shredder once they're done with you. They cremate the bodies afterwards. I probably can't even be sure they gather up all my body parts for cremation.
I'm so freaking angry! I really seriously hope pdoc did not learn to do pelvic exams without consent on people who were put under.
Posted by Deneb on October 26, 2010, at 12:11:18
In reply to No consent to pelvic exams under anesthesia, posted by Deneb on October 24, 2010, at 2:36:11
I'm still angry about this. Pdoc didn't comment on this at all. I asked her about it and she just said they got consent. This makes me think pdoc did this to women without their explicit consent.
I just called the distress centre about this and the lady said since there was nothing I could do about this that I should just ignore it and focus on myself.
I'm so upset about this article.
I feel like I hate doctors now. I feel like we should medically rape doctors and see how they feel.
Why aren't other Babblers enraged over this?
From now on, if I ever have to go to the hospital, I will make sure every person who sees me is not a med student. If they are, I will basically tell them to f*ck off. I'll tell them they are not allowed to touch me, examine me, talk to me, observe me or even look at me. If they do I'll scream, "I'm being assaulted".
No, you're not allowed to touch me! Don't even look at me, I'd say. Go practice on someone else.
If I ever get surgery or anything, I will make sure no med students are allowed in the same room as me. They are not allowed to see my body, touch me or even talk to me.
No, you can't ask me questions! Don't talk to me if you're a med student. Don't you dare even look at me. Go practice on someone else.
I think I hate them.
Posted by Deneb on October 26, 2010, at 13:22:50
In reply to Medically sanctioned rape, posted by Deneb on October 26, 2010, at 12:11:18
I believe all women have a right to their bodies. I guess you would say I am a feminist. I believe this is true in all settings, be it medical or otherwise.
I just read about birth rape and it is appalling. If I am in labour and don't want doctors examining my cervix, that is my right and if anyone touches me without my consent, it is sexual assault. After reading about birth rape, if I ever get pregnant, I will NOT be going to the hospital.
Here is a an exerpt I totally agree with:
http://mymilkspilt.wordpress.com/2010/04/06/when-changing-birth-culture-meets-fighting-rape-culture/
When a woman has a hand or an instrument inserted into her vagina whilst she screams and thrashes out her non-consent, and when this action is sanctioned by society because it occurs in a medical setting (and because it is believed it must be for the safety of her baby if carried out in this setting, regardless of whether or not it was medically indicated or evidence-based care), we have a problem. When women are routinely given vaginal examinations without their consent being sought or given (either without their knowledge under aneasthetic or in an obstetric setting), we have a problem. When a woman attests that she was raped in an obstetric setting and her story is greeted with at best derision and at worst outright hostility, we have a problem. We all have a problem.
The problem is that in a culture that allows the bodily autonomy of women to be eroded, denied, violently erased in any setting, bodily autonomy only exists as a value that is demonstrably vulnerable to attack. In other words: if you have a childfree, currently not disabled body and you like having your right to give or withold consent protected, then youd better care about the possiblity that it could be taken from you if your body changes. And more than that: youd better care that whilst the medical community and other facets of society sit by and tacitly condone the violation of certain womens bodies, that the violation of other bodies could also make it onto the agenda. When there are circumstances where sexual violence is deemed acceptable or inevitable or even desirable, it is only the circumstances that protect the rest of us and circumstances change, expand and multiply.
Birth rights are about more than birth, and advocating for birthing women is advocating for all.
Posted by emmanuel98 on October 26, 2010, at 20:01:02
In reply to Re: Medically sanctioned rape, posted by Deneb on October 26, 2010, at 13:22:50
If a woman has given consent, I don't see what the problem is. Medical students have to learn somehow, have to learn techniques so they don't harm anyone once they're in practice. I only go to teaching hospitals. I like the med students and the attending physicians are usually the best in their field. I'm currently in a nursing program and in clinical placements, we basically have to use patients as guinea pigs (under close observation, of course). But how would you like to have a nurse screw up an IV or a catheter insertion because they had never had an opportunity to practice on a live patient?
I plan to donate my body to science. Once I'm dead, my body is of no use to anyone except med students, who learn from cadavers where organs are, what they look like, how to find them and visualize them in case they specialize in surgery. Do you want a surgeon who is untrained on actual human bodies?
Posted by Deneb on October 26, 2010, at 20:22:37
In reply to Re: Medically sanctioned rape, posted by emmanuel98 on October 26, 2010, at 20:01:02
I agree that it's fine if a woman has given consent. The problem is when they don't give consent or outright refuse to have something done to them and the doctors disregard what they say.
Those anaestheized women did not know they were giving consent to med students to give them practice pelvic exams. All they do is sign a piece of paper to give consent for the surgery. They did not consent to having med students practice pelvic exams on them. Once these patients find out about this, they are often furious. Also any extra time spent under anaesthesia makes it more dangerous for the patient.
Same with the women who give birth. Many women have had traumatic births. They talk about how everyone sticks their fingers up their vagina without consent or even cut them open while they scream, "NO, don't cut me open!".
I also don't have a problem with med students and nurses practicing on people WHO DON'T MIND.
I mind and so do some other people. It's great that you don't mind letting people practice on you, but don't force this on people who DO MIND.
Those med students can practice on the people who DON'T MIND but don't touch me! I do not want to be their first time screw up, which is exactly what you don't want.
Posted by Deneb on October 26, 2010, at 20:36:41
In reply to Re: Medically sanctioned rape, posted by emmanuel98 on October 26, 2010, at 20:01:02
Of course I don't want an untrained surgeon who has never practiced on human bodies. I applaud those people who give their bodies to science. I think it's a very noble and generous thing to do.
I am just talking about how *I* would never donate my body to science. It just totally creeps me out. I just feel violated even thinking about it.
I have nothing against med students. I wish I had gone to med school. It all looks very interesting to learn, but I would NOT practice on someone who did not give consent. I think it is very wrong.
When it comes to my individual treatment, I would have nothing to do with med students or nurses learning. I'll be sure to ask every person who sees me who they are and what they are going to do.
Posted by Deneb on October 26, 2010, at 21:41:17
In reply to Re: Medically sanctioned rape » emmanuel98, posted by Deneb on October 26, 2010, at 20:36:41
If I ever have to go to the hospital, this is what I'll say to every single person.
Who are you? What do you want to do to me?
If I find out they are in training I will say:
I DO NOT CONSENT to you touching me in any way.
I DO NOT CONSENT to you talking to me.
I DO NOT CONSENT to you observing me.I don't care if I am suicidal and am refusing life saving treatment. If I say I don't consent, I DON'T CONSENT!
I don't care if I or my baby will die if I don't consent to this. If I say I don't consent, I DON'T CONSENT!
I feel very strongly about this.
Posted by olivepit on October 28, 2010, at 20:31:19
In reply to Re: Medically sanctioned rape, posted by Deneb on October 26, 2010, at 21:41:17
I totally understand how you feel Deneb. I find that upsetting as well
Posted by Deneb on October 28, 2010, at 21:17:11
In reply to Re: Medically sanctioned rape » Deneb, posted by olivepit on October 28, 2010, at 20:31:19
I can't get over this! I'm angry again. I read that all the outrage from that article made doctors change the rules in Canada and now they need consent, but I am still outraged at what happened in the past.
I don't know why this is affecting me so much. I just feel so upset about this!
I'm actually on the verge of tears right now!
I feel like I want revenge.
Posted by olivepit on October 30, 2010, at 19:27:03
In reply to Re: Medically sanctioned rape, posted by Deneb on October 28, 2010, at 21:17:11
> I can't get over this! I'm angry again. I read that all the outrage from that article made doctors change the rules in Canada and now they need consent, but I am still outraged at what happened in the past.
yeah, it doesn't sit well with me either.
>
> I don't know why this is affecting me so much. I just feel so upset about this!You feel strongly about the rights of women... have you ever had a surgery that makes you wonder if this happened to you?
Posted by Deneb on October 30, 2010, at 19:48:45
In reply to Re: Medically sanctioned rape, posted by olivepit on October 30, 2010, at 19:27:03
No, I haven't. I'm sure nothing like this has happened to me. I've only ever had oral surgery.
This is the end of the thread.
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