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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 95 to 119 of 169. Go back in thread:
Posted by BayLeaf on August 2, 2010, at 22:24:19
In reply to Re: The Question Remains: Why Is Babble Not Babbling?, posted by ed_uk2010 on August 2, 2010, at 16:43:44
> Well, I didn't feel put down. I was mildly amused. I really don't understand how the 'kiddie pool' reference could cause anyone to feel put down. It wasn't directed at any specific poster.
Yes, this exactly.Babble isn't babbling cuz of adminstrative decisions which discount the many, many, many, did I say many? requests for changes to the blocking policies, along with all the other kagillion decisions made which ignore the begging and pleading for changes (and lack there of...um...see Admin board currently) by posters who want the place to thrive.
No d'uh, eh?
Posted by violette on August 2, 2010, at 22:26:40
In reply to Re: The Question Remains: Why Is Babble Not Babbling?, posted by BayLeaf on August 2, 2010, at 22:24:19
> Well, I didn't feel put down. I was mildly amused. I really don't understand how the 'kiddie pool' reference could cause anyone to feel put down. It wasn't directed at any specific poster.
I don't understand either. Maybe it had something to do with the fact the Admin. board was quiet for a few days? Odd timing or coincidence?
Posted by SLS on August 3, 2010, at 5:12:54
In reply to Re: Why Is Babble Not Babbling?, posted by violette on August 2, 2010, at 14:28:23
> Maybe Ron was hurting inside?
This is also true of many murderers. It is unlikely that Ron is a murderer, though. However, behaviors have consequences. Ron must surely be an adult and capable of making adult decisions, as he no longer wishes to play in the 'kiddie pool'.
- Scott
Posted by manic666 on August 3, 2010, at 6:16:55
In reply to Re: Why Is Babble Not Babbling? » violette, posted by SLS on August 3, 2010, at 5:12:54
i dont get this kiddies pool sh*t . whats the big deal with it in america i means nothing to me.Is it like saying your childish ,im off to play with the grown ups. If thats what it mean,s come on people get a life
Posted by SLS on August 3, 2010, at 6:19:19
In reply to Re: Why Is Babble Not Babbling?, posted by manic666 on August 3, 2010, at 6:16:55
> ...come on people get a life
I wish I could.
I hope all is well with you.
:-)
- Scott
Posted by Dinah on August 3, 2010, at 8:52:17
In reply to Re: Why Is Babble Not Babbling? » Dinah, posted by violette on August 2, 2010, at 22:22:00
> That is likely true, Dinah. I do feel that even if I am 'hearing it more' than intended, or happen to be more vigilant about such concepts, that it is still not healthy to continously point out to people that they should express themself like another particular person...
Liking something someone said and quoting it is not the same as wanting other people to express themselves the same way. I don't really see it as the same thing at all. I am not saying it can't be annoying. My husband probably wants to scream whenever I say "My therapist says...." But I'm not saying I want my husband to be like my therapist or express himself like my therapist. I just find something to the point in something my therapist said. It's even more clear if I quote my mother, which I often do.
> I pictured Ron as someone hurting inside, who needed to be heard and understood.
I doubt any of us would be here if we weren't hurting inside, and needing to be heard, understood, and treated with respect.
> Still, I'd like to see people have the opportunity be heard and understood.
Posters do have the opportunity in their original posts. They have another opportunity in response to Dr. Bob's request. The way they use that opportunity determines whether they will have the opportunity in the next period of time. When they return, they again have the opportunity, and it's up to them how they use it and how long they have the opportunity.
Posted by Dinah on August 3, 2010, at 8:55:02
In reply to Re: Why Is Babble Not Babbling?, posted by manic666 on August 3, 2010, at 6:16:55
> i dont get this kiddies pool sh*t . whats the big deal with it in america i means nothing to me.Is it like saying your childish ,im off to play with the grown ups. If thats what it mean,s come on people get a life
Get a life?
I don't believe having a life and asking to be treated with respect are mutually exclusive. In fact, I think having a healthy life includes believing that one is worthy of respect.
Posted by Dinah on August 3, 2010, at 9:21:24
In reply to Re: Why Is Babble Not Babbling? » Dinah, posted by violette on August 2, 2010, at 22:22:00
Also, Violette, consider that of the handful of people who post regularly on administrative matters, I'm one of the few who on occasion supports Dr. Bob and/or his policies. He's not likely to quote something negative to himself or his policies.
And logically, if he refers to something I've said he's not asking other posters to express themselves more like me. At most, he's saying that I expressed something *he* would like to say as well or better than *he* could.
One of the greatest values I have gotten from Babble came from the threads that upset me most. I'd bring in a sheaf of posts to my therapist, and he'd help me see how my own views and experiences were shaping my perceptions and responses in ways that weren't healthy to me. You've mentioned a few times your own personal responses to Admin issues. Do you find it as helpful as I did to bring in printouts of the threads that were upsetting?
Posted by violette on August 3, 2010, at 10:23:51
In reply to Re: Why Is Babble Not Babbling? » violette, posted by Dinah on August 3, 2010, at 9:21:24
> I'd bring in a sheaf of posts to my therapist, and he'd help me see how my own views and experiences were shaping my perceptions and responses in ways that weren't healthy to me. You've mentioned a few times your own personal responses to Admin issues. Do you find it as helpful as I did to bring in printouts of the threads that were upsetting? - Dinah
I could do that but have more important things to work through with him during our limited time (unprocessed childhood trauma). And I developed a habit of self-analysis and use it daily, including things that are less important to my life.
Like your T, he points out my perception distortions, which I always find to be helpful. He does encourage me, however, to be assertive and express myself, my beliefs, my individuality. He thinks it's healthier to feel anger and put it into words instead of internalizing it, turning it against myself.
Though he agrees with me that my perceptions are often accurate. And I'd say some posts in a current thread on the med forum directed toward one individual seem alot more uncivil to me than the analagy of the forum with a kiddie pool. And my T would probably agree. And after somone asked me not to post to them, I decided it to be best to now stay out of that discussion.
Either way, my T always listens and understands before pointing out distortions or usage of less healthy defense mechanisms. We still have alot of work to do, however.
Thanks for the suggestion. You're a sweetie :)
Posted by violette on August 3, 2010, at 10:44:17
In reply to Re: Why Is Babble Not Babbling? » violette, posted by SLS on August 3, 2010, at 5:12:54
Hi SLS,
Ron reminded me of someone I used to work with. In fact, he used the terms playground and kiddie pool to express anger about work scenerios "the system" while not being mean to individuals. While he was abrupt in his mannerisms, he was a sweetheart inside-a giving person. I got along with everyone at work and I'd always be one that sat and listened to his concerns, and at the end, he'd end up laughing and his soft side would come out.
I totally see your point. I also recognize some people may have never stepped foot in a therapist's office before and could possibly benefit from having someone listen to them.
Ron is obviously not the person I worked with, but I just don't see how he was hurting anyone with his words and thought he might benefit more from working through whatever was troubling to him if given the chance. If he wasn't expressing his anger in the manner which he did-jokes about the forum-I don't believe he would have had the chance to address anger buried deep inside.
When some people are brought up not allowed to express emotions, I think it's better to express them in that way vs. keeping them inside. And if Ron didn't express anger in the way he did, I don't believe he would have expressed it at all. That's only my guess though....
Take care
Posted by fayeroe on August 3, 2010, at 12:18:21
In reply to Re: Why Is Babble Not Babbling? » manic666, posted by SLS on August 3, 2010, at 6:19:19
Posted by manic666 on August 3, 2010, at 13:05:32
In reply to Re: Why Is Babble Not Babbling?It is up to you... (nm) » SLS, posted by fayeroe on August 3, 2010, at 12:18:21
Hey baby i just go it, when i posted get a life. it was a terminology, like ron said kiddies pool. i didnt mean anything by it, its just a statment.i had never thought till you brought it up,mabye ron was the same ,thats why i couldnt see anything wrong in it.You seem cool at the minute, mabye a bit of stimulation posting is good for you,im not being weired or anything i mean it, stay safe.
Posted by violette on August 3, 2010, at 13:27:27
In reply to Re: Why Is Babble Not Babbling? » violette, posted by Dinah on August 3, 2010, at 9:21:24
> One of the greatest values I have gotten from Babble came from the threads that upset me most.
I have had similar feelings as you, Dinah. Ron and I had a productive discussion on the Admin. board about a disagreement a while back. We also found one commonality in our disagreement. But overall the conversation was self-exploratory for me (and maybe for him too?), even though it upset me a bit at first. And I enjoyed talking with Ron about the topic.
But in thinking of SLS's recent post to me in this thread, I probably need to remind myself more often this forum isn't a therapist's office. At the same time, I feel strongly about this issue as a result of my beliefs and values-just as you feel strongly about a rating system due to your beliefs and values. Do you see your strong feelings about a proposed rating system as a distortion on your part? Maybe a bit of both? It doesn't have to be either/or.
But just as you have a different view than Bob about the effect of such a system, I have a different view of self-expression toleration.
Psychoanalysts are notorious for letting someone process their anger-they can really tolerate alot. They have limits too-such as physical violence. And people change by developing insight from working through those feelings. Also-anger is part of the grieving process of human beings. So i tend to agree with this approach, with limits, and am more tolerant as long as someone is not directing their anger at specific individual in a bullying or hurtful way....
But just as SLS's post reminded me to adjust my expectations, it also confirmed the validity of my beliefts and values that behavioralism does not work.
Speaking of murder, I don't think it's working to just kill off terrorists. As much as we address the behavior, people still want to become terrorists.
Of course we can't let people go around and kill others, but it doesn't seem to be working to tell them over and over and over again that their 'behavior' is wrong. They are conditioned from a young age to believe this behavior is the solution to their problems. I do not think it is realistic to expect someone who grew up being conditioned to take that route and to have a victim stance, to suddenly take our advice-hey, you can achieve your political goals through non-violent means. And addressing the behavior by hunting them down and killing them off is actually reinforcing their victim stance-and maybe even strengthing their will-rather than producing change.
Because the West has learned this after our violent wars, doesn't mean they will just suddenly wake up and realize there are other solutions. We learned the hard way too-Vietnam for one. But it took people being personally affected by the war for us to realize the Cold War was wrong-to truly get the insight-before protests against this method become a contagion in our society.
I think instead, if someone's father, brother, or sister has found an alternate solution to terrorism successfully-such as started a legitimate business to improve their circumstances or a peaceful non-profit org-I think it would more likely have an effect on other terrorists-spreading the insight that they have the power to change their situation. But people are not going to get that insight until they feel it themselves-instead of think it, despite being shown, directed, and told over and over. Being told to change behavior, despite pointing out to people the positive things they can do-does not allow such insights to be realized for those who are conditioned and reinforced in their views-one must experience it to change that will. So things never change. We can get better at fighting them off, but they might get better at attacking us as trying to change their behavior by simply killing them off-instead of empowering them in positive ways-is reinforcing that same victimhood. The #1 worse place to live in the world now? Iraq.
I guess I didn't see Ron as a terrorist. But I do realize that as much as I think it would benefit people to allow this forum to be more like a 'therapist's office', I should adjust my expectations a bit. And thanks for the conversation.
Posted by fayeroe on August 3, 2010, at 13:31:34
In reply to Re: Why Is Babble Not Babbling? » violette, posted by SLS on August 3, 2010, at 5:12:54
> > Maybe Ron was hurting inside?
>
> This is also true of many murderers. It is unlikely that Ron is a murderer, though. However, behaviors have consequences. Ron must surely be an adult and capable of making adult decisions, as he no longer wishes to play in the 'kiddie pool'.
>
>
> - ScottI feel very offended by the use of the word "murderers" in a thread that started off because Ron said "kiddie pool". .
Posted by Dinah on August 3, 2010, at 15:19:51
In reply to Re: Why Is Babble Not Babbling? » Dinah, posted by violette on August 3, 2010, at 13:27:27
> Do you see your strong feelings about a proposed rating system as a distortion on your part?
Well, if it is, my therapist won't be able to help me much. This is one of the rare instances he thinks I am completely and totally right.
Well, in general anyway. He may have thought I spoke injudiciously once or twice to Dr. Bob. I do have my moments of frustration and don't always walk away from the computer when it might be wiser to do so.
Posted by sigismund on August 3, 2010, at 15:22:57
In reply to Re: The Question Remains: Why Is Babble Not Babbling?, posted by ed_uk2010 on August 2, 2010, at 16:43:44
> Well, I didn't feel put down. I was mildly amused. I really don't understand how the 'kiddie pool' reference could cause anyone to feel put down. It wasn't directed at any specific poster.
Eddy, as you'd be aware, this is his entire reply to my post, right down the bottom...
> >I'm posing the question to the other PB members: what changes might you suggest to make this place more vibrant?
>
> That's an interesting (if less than productive) question which I shall not address, it having been argued about with little result for the last 4 years and perhaps longer for all I know.
> Instead here is something to reflect on
>
>
>
> Three in the Morning (Chuang Tzu)
> When we wear out our minds, stubbornly clinging to one partial view of things, refusing to see a deeper agreement between this and its complentary opposite, we have what is called 'three in the morning'.
> What is this 'three in the morning'?
> A monkey trainer went to his monkeys and told them: 'As regards your chestnuts: you are going to have three measures in the morning and four in the afternoon.'
> At this they all became very angry. So he said: 'All right, in that case I will give you four in the morning and three in the afternoon.' This time they were satisfied.
> The two arrangements were the same in that the number of chestnuts did not change. But in one case the animals were displeased, and in the other they were satisfied. The keeper had been willing to change his personal arrangement in order to meet objective conditions. He lost nothing by it!
> The truly wise man, considering both sides of the question without partiality, sees them both in the light of Tao.
> This is called following two courses at once.That is an excellent piece of philosophy, which I'm afraid too few can understand or embrace, as evidenced by the single-mindedness so common in PB.
I think it may be best for me to end my visit to the kiddie pool and head back to deeper waters.
Posted by sigismund on August 3, 2010, at 15:24:13
In reply to Re: Why Is Babble Not Babbling? » SLS, posted by fayeroe on August 3, 2010, at 13:31:34
The instructive spectacle has certainly brought us all out of the woodwork.
Posted by sigismund on August 3, 2010, at 15:28:17
In reply to Re: The Question Remains: Why Is Babble Not Babbling? » ed_uk2010, posted by sigismund on August 3, 2010, at 15:22:57
I was very offended by the way the instructive spectacle was managed. I became very angry. I am not at liberty to jump to conclusions about Bob's motives, so I will have to think about my choice of words.
I was mildly (very very mildly indeed) hurt that Ron was leaving. Lots of things (almost everything!) are mildly hurtful. But Ron was ready for the block, the chopping block. He was on notice.
Posted by Dinah on August 3, 2010, at 15:53:34
In reply to Re: The Question Remains: Why Is Babble Not Babbling? » ed_uk2010, posted by sigismund on August 3, 2010, at 15:22:57
I will say that the original post was less upsetting to me than the subsequent discussion has been.
Posted by 10derHeart on August 3, 2010, at 16:51:39
In reply to Re: The Question Remains: Why Is Babble Not Babbling?, posted by Dinah on August 3, 2010, at 15:53:34
I was just going to say nearly the same thing.
I'm now trying to figure out how to contribute to this thread in some positive, constructive way so others can even have a clue on my POV on things.
sigh. failing so far to think of anything articulate and civil.
I'll keep thinking about it.
Posted by Willful on August 3, 2010, at 17:21:07
In reply to Re: The Question Remains: Why Is Babble Not Babbling? » Dinah, posted by 10derHeart on August 3, 2010, at 16:51:39
I hope you do find a way to express your POV, I'm very interested to hear how you've experienced babble and what your thoughts are on this topic.
Willful
Posted by fayeroe on August 3, 2010, at 17:52:16
In reply to Re: The Question Remains: Why Is Babble Not Babbling?, posted by sigismund on August 3, 2010, at 15:28:17
> I was very offended by the way the instructive spectacle was managed. I became very angry. I am not at liberty to jump to conclusions about Bob's motives, so I will have to think about my choice of words.
>
> I was mildly (very very mildly indeed) hurt that Ron was leaving. Lots of things (almost everything!) are mildly hurtful. But Ron was ready for the block, the chopping block. He was on notice.While doing my 3 miles in 101 heat, I thought about what happened here after Ron was blocked.
I want to re-phrase what I said earlier about being offended over the word choice of "murderer" in a post.
I realized that I had misspoken when I said I felt "offended".
I felt hurt when I read that sentence.
Posted by sigismund on August 3, 2010, at 20:40:57
In reply to Re: Why Is Babble Not Babbling? » violette, posted by SLS on August 3, 2010, at 5:12:54
Behaviours have consequences, one of which is the current state of Babble.
Dinah has been right, surely, about the shaming quality of the requests.
Posted by PartlyCloudy on August 4, 2010, at 8:02:20
In reply to Re: Why Is Babble Not Babbling?, posted by sigismund on August 3, 2010, at 20:40:57
> Behaviours have consequences, one of which is the current state of Babble.
>
> Dinah has been right, surely, about the shaming quality of the requests.Yes! And I, for one, do not respond well to requests that appear to be shame-based.
pc
Posted by Justherself54 on August 4, 2010, at 11:38:14
In reply to Re: Why Is Babble Not Babbling? » sigismund, posted by PartlyCloudy on August 4, 2010, at 8:02:20
I don't respond well to them either. It's uncomfortable. Also runs the risk of the "messenger being shot".
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