![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Sigismund on September 29, 2009, at 8:24:31
In reply to Regarding PBC on Sarah Palin, posted by yxibow on September 27, 2009, at 4:45:30
Mental illness counts as a gift in a culture of cruelty.
Posted by Dinah on September 29, 2009, at 8:24:32
In reply to Re: Regarding PBC on Sarah Palin, posted by Sigismund on September 27, 2009, at 23:38:29
Down syndrome is not a mental illness.
People with down syndrome are, by all the accounts I've heard, not unhappy.
My nephew has genetic birth defects. While I regret that he wasn't born hale and hearty, he is a delightful child. Full of smiles and hugs. His parents seem to see him as a gift.
I had to consider the possibility myself, when I got pregnant. I was old enough that it was a possibility. I do thank God that I didn't have to test my strength, but I hope that I would have accepted a child with Down's syndrome as a gift and a blessing, just as I accepted my son as a gift and a blessing. My heart goes out to those parents who have to adjust their expectations of what their child will be. But I honor those who see their child as a blessing rather than a burden.
It is a culture of cruelty to value those with disabilities? Then let me be cruel.
Posted by 10derHeart on September 29, 2009, at 8:24:32
In reply to Re: Regarding PBC on Sarah Palin, posted by Dinah on September 28, 2009, at 9:41:28
>>It is a culture of cruelty to value those with disabilities? Then let me be cruel.
And me as well. Thanks for writing what I was thinking. I couldn't figure out quite how to word things. Probably 'cause I'm overtired, a little stressed by IRL things, and a little under the weather - the cognitive parts slow down a lot....but more probably because you just write so very well and better than I do, even when I feel better... :-)
Posted by Sigismund on September 29, 2009, at 8:24:32
In reply to Re: Regarding PBC on Sarah Palin, posted by Dinah on September 28, 2009, at 9:41:28
I was replying to Yxie, Dinah.
I wasn't aware of the larger context.
Posted by yxibow on September 29, 2009, at 8:24:32
In reply to Re: Regarding PBC on Sarah Palin, posted by Sigismund on September 27, 2009, at 23:38:29
> Mental illness counts as a gift in a culture of cruelty.
I cannot parse that exactly, but if you're saying the world always has its own cruelty then whatever ails us makes us unique and different... well you're entitled for this belief if I follow...
My loosely veiled reference to Palin in the previous context which somehow was interpreted as being uncivil........(I'm getting really tired on this site of having to tiptoe around everything... I could go on about how cruel that this
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforce
aspect of the site is the most egomaniacal and dangerous to the well-being of people who have heart-wrenching illnesses)....
...as I risk saying my feelings about that very part of the site as being uncivil, which is not my intention, but merely to point out what some people have already been told by their therapists that there is a danger in this place....
... at any rate off that tangent, my point was that after 8 years of 24/7 hell and disaster, I do not consider it a gift to me in ANY fashion.As for people with Down Syndrome and other mental handicaps --- I went to elementary school with two people with Down Syndrome who were born to the same parents, before testing for debilitating genetic disorders were really accurate.
The two of them interacted with our grades in the same manner though there were necessities to keep the rage which does accompany the condition away from people at times as they were older and stronger due to their difficulties.
I respected them and I do respect people with mental handicaps.
What I don't respect, and people can be free to argue on the religion board or wherever appropriate, are people who knowingly have amniocentesis or other tests of successful pregnancy and still bring someone with severe chromosomal difficulties to face this "cruel world".
I think those who knowingly chose so, are cruel themselves.
But there is a slippery slope of the possibility of eugenics of other parts of humanity that do not affect one's faculties in any particular way and so I am not branding every situation in this manner.I say this because I am already in this world, I am intelligent, I am homosexual, I am a vegetarian, etc... in other words, I'm describing things that as I say, a slippery slope would also be cruel. (This world does not need the likes of the Nazis and Dr. Mengele.)
Some ramblings to ponder, I hope people do not take it as uncivil... if one's religion or philosophy still believes in the contrary, well, that is up to themselves.
I just cannot fathom 22 years of my mental illness as any sort of gift. That I have enough intelligence to examine it and be able to deal with aspects of it, that is a gift. But I do not mean to be intelligentist either.
-- tidings.
Posted by Dinah on September 29, 2009, at 21:32:10
In reply to Re: Regarding PBC on Sarah Palin » Sigismund, posted by yxibow on September 29, 2009, at 8:24:32
> I respected them and I do respect people with mental handicaps.
>
>
> What I don't respect, and people can be free to argue on the religion board or wherever appropriate, are people who knowingly have amniocentesis or other tests of successful pregnancy and still bring someone with severe chromosomal difficulties to face this "cruel world".
>
>
> I think those who knowingly chose so, are cruel themselves.Well, you know the old saying. What you think *should* be scraped out of a uterus and disposed of prior to birth, by anyone who isn't in your opinion cruel, is a treasure to Palin. And I hope would be a treasure to me.
I would never dream of calling someone cruel who educated themselves, considered thoughtfully, and decided that they did not have the emotional, financial, or spiritual resources necessary to parent a child with Down's syndrome, and thus decided to terminate the pregnancy. It is a painfully difficult situation for any parent.
However, I would have made the decision you refer to, and I would appreciate it if, no matter what you think, you refrained from calling me and people like me "cruel".
Had I been advised to get an amniocentesis, I'd have done it. I'd have wanted to be prepared ahead of time. And if I discovered that my child was going to be born with just a brain stem, or something along those lines, I would have terminated the pregnancy.
However, no one can tell ahead of time how badly someone with Down Syndrome will be affected. It varies. Moreover, whenever you choose to have a child, you risk problems and heartache. As heartache goes, I'd prefer Down syndrome to a child lacking in integrity or caritas.
Cruel world? It seems so sometimes. I'd rather work on making it a less cruel world than decide who is worthy of living in the world as it is...
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0121630/bio
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Down_syndrome
Posted by Dinah on September 29, 2009, at 22:23:57
In reply to Re: Regarding PBC on Sarah Palin » yxibow, posted by Dinah on September 29, 2009, at 21:32:10
Posted by yxibow on September 30, 2009, at 0:33:39
In reply to Re: Regarding PBC on Sarah Palin, posted by Dinah on September 29, 2009, at 22:23:57
You can't argue with religion scientifically.
So I won't attempt to.
Please don't interpret my above essay as though I were not educated about what Down Syndrome is or have no compassion for those.
As I noted, there were two such children (actually overgrown because of developmental difficulties and their grade/ages being offset) in my elementary school and the best we could, people were told or knew not to treat them any differently than the other children.
I'm sure you can list a number of -higher functioning- Down Syndrome people in the entertainment industry, elsewhere, etc... just like you can say that Marlee Matlin has been very successful despite her profound deafness.
You can say that by late age, when schizophrenia usually dies down, John Nash is once again active in mathematics and chooses to deal with the illness by basically ignoring what isn't real.
And I did discuss the slippery slope of "eugenics".
But as I say, I can't and won't try to argue with what really boils down to a religious decision.I think scientifically and rationally it is unethical to bring a child who you do not know how profoundly their mental incapacity or disability will be, into this world.
Yes, the anguish of having to terminate, to have an abortion, I do not deny, that even for those who believe in the choice of it, and I do, is not a profound issue for women terminating a fetus because of the attachment and bonding that has developed.
Like a number of conditions in women who have late life pregnancies, the risk goes up. The risk also goes up if two people with Down Syndrome, or especially one female attempt to have children.Severe mental retardation can occur in those cases.
And I think that would be doubly unethical to bring such a child into the world.
From a rational standpoint, the costs of carrying to term and having a birth of a Down Syndrome child for life is staggering. The costs of raising a child through college these days is a quarter of a million.
Factor into that instead, disability issues, special education care, that may or may not be paid by the government, and no matter how much love there is, a child that you do not know whether they will be mildly or severely impaired, may require lifetime care because they don't have the capacity to understand certain key things in life.Sarah Palin can choose to do so because through her husband they are independently wealthy by Alaska standards more than anyone in Wasilla, which I can tell you having driven through there personally while I was in Alaska, is not a particularly inticing place to live.
Anyhow, I end this debate -- as I said, I cannot debate the existence of God in science.
Fin.
Posted by Dinah on September 30, 2009, at 0:37:06
In reply to Re: Regarding PBC on Sarah Palin » Dinah, posted by yxibow on September 30, 2009, at 0:33:39
How do you see it as a religious issue?
I don't see the connection to religion *at all*.
Posted by Dinah on September 30, 2009, at 0:48:29
In reply to Re: Regarding PBC on Sarah Palin » yxibow, posted by Dinah on September 30, 2009, at 0:37:06
Are you saying that all atheists and agnostics believe that we should kill anyone who may be profoundly or may be mildly retarded? Or those with IQ's below normal, no matter whether they're mildly or profoundly retarded?
Are you saying that for atheists and agnostics, whether or not someone deserves to live is based on a cost benefit analysis?
Do you speak for the other atheists and agnostics? A substantial majority?
Posted by yxibow on September 30, 2009, at 2:02:55
In reply to Re: Regarding PBC on Sarah Palin, posted by Dinah on September 30, 2009, at 0:48:29
> Are you saying that all atheists and agnostics believe that we should kill anyone who may be profoundly or may be mildly retarded? Or those with IQ's below normal, no matter whether they're mildly or profoundly retarded?
>
> Are you saying that for atheists and agnostics, whether or not someone deserves to live is based on a cost benefit analysis?
>
> Do you speak for the other atheists and agnostics? A substantial majority?
I don't speak for any other agnostic, I speak only as an agnostic myself.I speak as someone who believes in the right to choose, the availability of contraception, and against the death penalty among other things.
Surely you know there is no test for an IQ in the womb but there sure are tests for chromosomal 21 abnormalities and I defend my position that it is CRUEL to bring someone "so blessed" into this world.
I will use I statements. I find it personally nauseating to hear that the child and mother are "blessed" for their pregnancy of a child with known mild to severe limitations that will affect the rest of their lives.
As far as my agnosticness knows, we only get ONE Here and Now. I would want my offspring to have the best chance at that.And as I say, I can't debate religion. It ISNT killing someone. They aren't a person, they're a fetus. I can see where this is going, down the road of religious and high morality convictions.
I don't advocate the killing of anyone, that is a PERSON, not a non-living entity (something that CANNOT survive outside of a mother without guess what SCIENCE)... well accidentally offing key terrorists I don't like but I'll just leave it at that.
I know, I know... my scientific mind still says slippery slope... well if we can test for mental illness, homosexuality, deafness....I have limits. I'm not blessed to have the worst streak in my mother's lineal of mental health problems.
But I'm an intelligent human being who has up until now as it has gotten serious, against all odds graduated from college, and had some short jobs amongst the start of the worst episode I have ever had.
Being gay I don't believe in aborting someone who is homosexual... and here's the wry ... those who are so religiously zealous against homosexuals when we find out a gene or set of scenarios that definitively causes it, may have to finally concede that its NOT A CHOICE.
Anyhow, it has survived millenia, albeit with torture and death.
I could even conceive it as a population control, although males are perfectly capable of having (heterosexual) offspring even if they are gay.
Who knows.
And then there is, as I am aware, having a deaf friend, the controversy in the community of things such as cochlear implants that allow real hearing for the first time, in children, who don't grow up to use sign language, etc.
So it isn't easy... Humanity and sentience is one of the most complex things.
Posted by Dinah on September 30, 2009, at 2:20:38
In reply to Re: Regarding PBC on Sarah Palin » Dinah, posted by yxibow on September 30, 2009, at 2:02:55
Whatever you believe about fetuses being people, the fact is that there are people out there right now that would not be if their parents believed as you do.
And I don't think those people should have to read that their parents should have aborted them. That their parents were cruel and unethical for not aborting them. I don't think they should have to hear that about themselves. Would you want to hear that about yourself?
Moreover, parents who hear the news that they have a child with a genetic abnormality have so many layers of feelings and thoughts and hopes and fears. I don't think those parents, who may lurk or post at Babble, should have to hear that they are cruel or unethical. I would never want to hurt those parents who chose to terminate in such a difficult situation. I would hate to see parents who chose to carry to term hear that they are cruel or unethical.
People do their best in a bad situation. I don't think they should have to live with any more distress than that.
I'm not talking religion. I'm talking people. People who may read Babble or find Babble by a search on the topic. People who don't deserve to have more on their plate than they already have.
We both agree that these issues are complex. Is there no way that we can agree to respect those who find themselves in a situation that they hoped never to be in?
Posted by yxibow on September 30, 2009, at 5:22:36
In reply to Re: Regarding PBC on Sarah Palin » yxibow, posted by Dinah on September 30, 2009, at 2:20:38
> Whatever you believe about fetuses being people, the fact is that there are people out there right now that would not be if their parents believed as you do.
True, I don't think you're following me. I have extreme compassion for the mentally disabled.
> And I don't think those people should have to read that their parents should have aborted them. That their parents were cruel and unethical for not aborting them. I don't think they should have to hear that about themselves. Would you want to hear that about yourself?I'm entitled to my opinion. I was as careful as possible to use I words. I do believe that what I initially said is being turned over on itself. I just said above about the compassion about people who are already here suffering.
But why bring more suffering ?
> Moreover, parents who hear the news that they have a child with a genetic abnormality have so many layers of feelings and thoughts and hopes and fears. I don't think those parents, who may lurk or post at Babble, should have to hear that they are cruel or unethical. I would never want to hurt those parents who chose to terminate in such a difficult situation. I would hate to see parents who chose to carry to term hear that they are cruel or unethical.
Well, you're entitled to your opinion. I frankly think it is unethical to carry someone to term who knowingly has a 98% chance of a fair amount of mental incapacitation.I also would think its equally unethical to carry someone to term who has phenylketonuria (PKU) and even with a special diet may not make it out of their childhood.
I mean this is the social board to discuss things, frankly I think its stretching the bounds into religion and politics... I've had enough of this really... its getting droll.
> People do their best in a bad situation. I don't think they should have to live with any more distress than that.Thats a tautology. I wasn't arguing about that.
> I'm not talking religion. I'm talking people. People who may read Babble or find Babble by a search on the topic. People who don't deserve to have more on their plate than they already have.
One can't lead a life with blinders on. People have opinions. You're entitled to yours. And if someone is going to obsessively search for what you believe is negative, I'm sure they'll find a lot of things here.
> We both agree that these issues are complex. Is there no way that we can agree to respect those who find themselves in a situation that they hoped never to be in?
I'm sorry.Fortunately all of her inane politics allowed someone finally with some sense and the ability to open their mouth intelligently to rise to office, and hopefully help the very people you are talking about, including our segment of society, the mentally ill, with health care.
I'll leave it there.
Posted by Dinah on September 30, 2009, at 6:21:19
In reply to Re: Regarding PBC on Sarah Palin » Dinah, posted by yxibow on September 30, 2009, at 5:22:36
Then I will leave it there myself.
I am very sorry of that.
Posted by seldomseen on October 1, 2009, at 9:40:06
In reply to Re: Regarding PBC on Sarah Palin » Dinah, posted by yxibow on September 30, 2009, at 5:22:36
As a scientist, I would like to carefully weigh in on this discussion.
From a completely scientific, rational, observeable frame, there is no way to accurately quantify suffering, or its close kin "quality of life".
Though there have been metrics proposed to measure quality of life, IMO they all suffer from considerable bias as there is no accepted external gold standard as to what a "good life" actually is. Therefore, the scientist is left, by necessity to insert his or her own reference frame, thus introducing bias. While some of these metrics have been validated (read published in the literature), such metrics often include a comparator - is your life better than before - and as such fail to provide an accurate independent descriptor of such measure.
While undoubtedly there exist such things that meet the "malum in se" defintion and are thus unethical and likely illegal, even those are created, maintained via consensus modelling and many are largely contextually based.
Therefore, I am left to contend that the decision to bear a child (interesting phrase don't you think?) with what some would consider to be deficiences can not, at present, be scientifically based at all. Rather this decision is made from a completely internal and subjective reference point.
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 6, 2009, at 16:11:21
In reply to Re: Regarding PBC on Sarah Palin » Dinah, posted by yxibow on September 30, 2009, at 5:22:36
> I'm entitled to my opinion.
You're entitled to have your opinion, but not necessarily to post it. Your freedom of speech is limited here.
> I was as careful as possible to use I words.
>
> I frankly think it is unethical to carry someone to term who knowingly has a 98% chance of a fair amount of mental incapacitation.Putting "I think" in front of a you-statement doesn't make it an I-statement. Here's a nice post by Dinah on the difference:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20040112/msgs/320097.html
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Social | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.