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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on June 28, 2009, at 3:50:00
My little dog with the chronic illness is not about to die, I don't think. I usually only put a dog to sleep if they are in pain and about to die.
And she gets worse slowly enough that there is no clear way to tell when it would be a kindness to her to not continue to try.
She just has not been the same since she had her eye removed. On the one hand she sees much better now, and generally does not have to follow against walls. On the other hand, the surgery seemed to have pushed her into a worse phase of her illness.
She needs prednisone twice a day now, although oddly enough she doesn't seem to be suffering from the bloating and all that prednisone comes with. She may have even lost a bit of weight.
And it seems that more times than not she has terrible trouble getting around. She falls over, or has periods where she flops like a landed fish for more than just a few seconds. She doesn't pick herself up and trot happily on her way when she finds her feet either. She sways or stands on the tops of her feet, which are starting to look like limp pasta for some reason. Her illness doesn't affect her bones, but still, her legs just look all soft and bent. She has trouble with forward momentum sometimes and scuttles backward when she obviously is trying for forward.
She perks up around bedtime, or if something pleasurably exciting happens. Then she manages to get around rather well. She doesn't get around even then as well as she used to, and no longer finds my husband to let her up on the bed. Sometimes she'll come when called, but sometimes she'll have trouble gaining the forward momentum to do more than circle in place.
I watched her trying to eat earlier, and was positive that now was definitely the time. She could barely gather the coordination to manage the movements involved and she kept flopping. But then by bed time, she managed to scootle as fast as her brother very effectively in the direction of the bed, and I thought this can't possibly be the time.
I don't like this kind of decision. It's too ambiguous, and I can't be sure what's best for her.
Posted by Dinah on June 28, 2009, at 3:56:19
In reply to It's so hard to know 'when', posted by Dinah on June 28, 2009, at 3:50:00
It's been three years since she was diagnosed. The specialist thought it would be months, not years. But we heard tried one of the treatments that have started to be used, and she's done fairly well on them.
Posted by Sigismund on June 28, 2009, at 5:32:49
In reply to It's so hard to know 'when', posted by Dinah on June 28, 2009, at 3:50:00
>I can't be sure what's best for her
There's no way of being sure, but still, I think I would, from what you say.
But then again, I've never had to do it.
Posted by Frustratedmama on June 28, 2009, at 8:14:24
In reply to Re: It's so hard to know 'when' » Dinah, posted by Sigismund on June 28, 2009, at 5:32:49
I had to do this last year- hardest thing ever! Everyone told me I would "know when" and for a long time I doubted my decision. However, now I know that I did the right thing (actually might have waited longer than I should have). People tried to tell me things like "Is your dog able to do the things he likes to do?" and since he liked me and being pet I would answer "yes" but in reality, he couldn't walk well, was weak, had a hard time breathing, etc. I actually decided to do it because I didn't want him to die alone and I didn't want him to suffer anymore during the day while I worked. I want you to know that I have been there! I am here if you need someone to listen and I will be needing to make a decision again in the future (I have a 13 year old dog with diabetes who is on insulin and is getting weaker, more insulin dependant each month, and blind). SO I feel your pain, sorrow, and have shared your joys! Take care of yourself and do whatever you think is right. SOmetimes you "just know" as they say and sometimes you have to "just trust your inner gut feelings- even when you don't know for sure". Hope this helps a little! Take care!
FM
Posted by Phillipa on June 28, 2009, at 12:33:42
In reply to Re: It's so hard to know 'when', posted by Frustratedmama on June 28, 2009, at 8:14:24
Dinah well you know me with my still grieved for Brandy I could never have done it and didn't as he was there sometimes. I cried into his fur for a year when Son in Iraq. He was and will always be the love of my life right or wrong. And when the time was right he just went on his own. Blind, deaf, incontinent, no teeth but four, hole in palate of mouth, But at moments he looked at me and the love was there. I can't read this anymore I'm sorry. My love ended with the loss of Brandy right or wrong. I can't help who I loved. But I don't think or feel others only had that one source of comfort and love. Sorry I'm upset. Phillipa
Posted by fayeroe on June 28, 2009, at 12:51:06
In reply to It's so hard to know 'when', posted by Dinah on June 28, 2009, at 3:50:00
> My little dog with the chronic illness is not about to die, I don't think. I usually only put a dog to sleep if they are in pain and about to die.
Not being able to get up could certainly have something to do with pain.
>
> And she gets worse slowly enough that there is no clear way to tell when it would be a kindness to her to not continue to try.What is her quality of life? That is a very important thing to take into consideration now.
>
> She just has not been the same since she had her eye removed. On the one hand she sees much better now, and generally does not have to follow against walls. On the other hand, the surgery seemed to have pushed her into a worse phase of her illness.I don't know how old she is but being "under" for any length of time will impact them. Especially if she is a senior. General anesthesia is poison to our systems. That is how "it puts us to sleep" for surgery. My ex often talked about how long it takes the body to recover from it. Pretty long time.
>
> She needs prednisone twice a day now, although oddly enough she doesn't seem to be suffering from the bloating and all that prednisone comes with. She may have even lost a bit of weight.
>
> And it seems that more times than not she has terrible trouble getting around. She falls over, or has periods where she flops like a landed fish for more than just a few seconds. She doesn't pick herself up and trot happily on her way when she finds her feet either. She sways or stands on the tops of her feet, which are starting to look like limp pasta for some reason. Her illness doesn't affect her bones, but still, her legs just look all soft and bent. She has trouble with forward momentum sometimes and scuttles backward when she obviously is trying for forward.It sounds like her brain has been affected and her "motor skill signals" are working properly. And I would go back again to the idea that she is in pain and you can't tell.
>
> She perks up around bedtime, or if something pleasurably exciting happens. Then she manages to get around rather well. She doesn't get around even then as well as she used to, and no longer finds my husband to let her up on the bed. Sometimes she'll come when called, but sometimes she'll have trouble gaining the forward momentum to do more than circle in place.A pet will go to great lengths to please their family. I know that Tippy did. I waited too long on him and I've regretted it for years.
>
> I watched her trying to eat earlier, and was positive that now was definitely the time. She could barely gather the coordination to manage the movements involved and she kept flopping. But then by bed time, she managed to scootle as fast as her brother very effectively in the direction of the bed, and I thought this can't possibly be the time.Having problems eating is a sign that her little system is in trouble.
>
> I don't like this kind of decision. It's too ambiguous, and I can't be sure what's best for her.What is best for her is to let her be comfortable again and be restored to health. I believe that our
pets will go to "heaven"....I know that it is a very hard decision to make. I believe that sometimes the hardest thing to do is the best for our pets.
All of this comes from my experiences. I am not telling you to go one way or the other. We may have to sacrifice our feelings of dread for comfort for our dogs/cats.
I definitely don't believe that there is a "time when the pet lets us know"....I believe that it is our duty to "know when the time comes"..it sounds to me like now is the time for your little dog.
Pat
>
>
Posted by Frustratedmama on June 28, 2009, at 15:49:37
In reply to Re: It's so hard to know 'when', posted by Phillipa on June 28, 2009, at 12:33:42
Phillipa - HUGS to you! Sorry about your loss and know that I am here! HUGS again! FM
Posted by Kath on June 28, 2009, at 17:02:36
In reply to Re: It's so hard to know 'when' » Dinah, posted by Dinah on June 28, 2009, at 3:56:19
Aw Dinah,
What a difficult decision to have to make.
I wonder about sitting down quietly with her & in your mind "talking" with her about how is it for her & is she okay with continuing on, or would she rather leave this life & have peace.
I did that with my cat when she was at the vet. The vet had said he would like to do xrays to see what was causing her trouble breathing. She was pretty old & had had diabetes for some years & was having trouble moving (looked like she was stiff & sore).
She was in the cage & I asked her in my mind if she wanted me to help her move on. She 'said' yes. I still haven't gotten over feeling badly that I caved in to the vet saying about the xrays & it meant leaving her there & then I did end up helping her leave. I have awful feelings about making her wait & also about leaving her there at the vets for a couple of hours!!!!!!
I send you my loving thoughts Dinah. What a hard time for you-all.
love, Kath
Posted by Kath on June 28, 2009, at 17:07:33
In reply to Re: It's so hard to know 'when' » Phillipa, posted by Frustratedmama on June 28, 2009, at 15:49:37
We can have so very much love for our pets.
Dinah, I'd say now is the time. Tammy definitely 'told me' that yes, she was ready for me to help her leave.
The vet was so nice. He put a lovely soft blanket on the examining table & was so kind & gentle.
For my son's cat & later, for my daughter's, the vet came to our house to give the injection. It seemed a WAY more gentle & loving thing to do. If I'd known it was an option, I'd have definitely had Tammy helped to kitty heaven that way.
love, Kath
Posted by gardenergirl on June 29, 2009, at 12:53:38
In reply to It's so hard to know 'when', posted by Dinah on June 28, 2009, at 3:50:00
Gosh, that's such a hard decision. It's just loaded with peril. I'm so sorry you are struggling with this right now. It helped me after the fact when my vet told me that she thought my decision about our late pet was the right one and the one she would have made. I think that it also would have helped to know that from her while trying to make the decision, but I understand how they probably don't want to be seen as telling you what to do.
I love you. Thinking of you.
gg
Posted by Dinah on June 29, 2009, at 16:21:06
In reply to Re: It's so hard to know 'when', posted by Frustratedmama on June 28, 2009, at 8:14:24
> People tried to tell me things like "Is your dog able to do the things he likes to do?" and since he liked me and being pet I would answer "yes" but in reality, he couldn't walk well, was weak, had a hard time breathing, etc.
That is precisely the problem. I feel that as long as she had her small pleasures, it was wrong of me to take that from her.
But after another night of her shaking I finally decided that it was time. Shaking while sleeping indicates discomfort to me, and she's been doing it more often than not for at least a month.
My regular vet told me when I asked recently that he wouldn't think less of me no matter what I decided, and that we had already gone far further than most people would have with the sweetie. She's been on prednisone and chemo for at least two and a half years, after being diagnosed three years ago. The specialist then said she was unlikely to live more than months.
It was a degenerative brain illness where her immune system attacked her brain matter. Quite a bit of one side of her brain was dead three years ago, in a fairly recent period of time. The medication slowed it down, but she's been getting worse and was going to continue to get worse.
I don't know if I've ever felt this guilty about putting a dog to sleep. I don't know if it's ever something I've done more than a few days from their inevitable death.
I didn't expect to cry, but I did. I cried after I wrote this post, because I realized viscerally that this really was time. That she was in discomfort. I cried as I held her little body. She was so small. I've known this was coming for three years. She wasn't even really my dog. She was my husband's little princess.
It seems so damnably unfair that she developed this so young. Her entire life was a bit more than five years, and she was sick for three of those. Unfair.
Posted by fayeroe on June 29, 2009, at 17:22:41
In reply to Re: It's so hard to know 'when', posted by Dinah on June 29, 2009, at 16:21:06
I'm so sorry, Dinah, that her life was cut short. Fayeroe's was also too early. She was 7.
We have the abilities to work through our pet's circumstances and make a decision for them. You gave her a gift of no more pain...I believe in heaven for dogs and I believe that she is restored to full health and comfortable now.
Again, I am so sorry that she had to say goodbye to you so soon.
Her spirit stays with you and she guards and comforts you...Take care, Pat
Posted by 10derHeart on June 29, 2009, at 20:03:22
In reply to Re: It's so hard to know 'when', posted by Dinah on June 29, 2009, at 16:21:06
I'm so sorry. I hope in time it'll be alright - the timing of it. I know what you mean more than you know, because my baby that I chose this for last year wasn't exactly on death's door, not yet, not right then, although his disease was incurable. But like your shaking, etc., he was throwing up foam - repeatedly. He didn't want affection, hardly ever. He wasn't enjoying life enough of each day, I didn't think, for him to be him any more. I want to say much more but I'm unable to do it very well at this time. Just trust me I understand the horrible choice and second-guessing yourself.
I just passed the one-year anniversary of my kitty's death - my companion of 16 years and it's not been a great week. I waited a whole year and chose denial over coping with the box containing his cremated remains. I just couldn't touch it so it sat on a shelf. I opened it up 3 days ago and a flood of grief occurred. Probably good for me, but I don't have to like it.
These in-between things just royally suck. Unfair is right, on so many levels. I'm crying with you. ((Dinah))
Posted by Frustratedmama on June 29, 2009, at 21:15:36
In reply to Re: It's so hard to know 'when', posted by Dinah on June 29, 2009, at 16:21:06
Dinah,
I am so sorry for your loss and am thinking of you. You put into words everything I felt the day I lost my beloved Kimo. I cried and am crying now as I type this. Lots of hugs!
FM
PS Maybe they are playing together pain free in doggie heaven right now :)
Posted by Dinah on June 29, 2009, at 21:51:28
In reply to Re: It's so hard to know 'when' » Dinah, posted by Frustratedmama on June 29, 2009, at 21:15:36
Thank you. I'm very sorry that others have experienced what I'm experiencing.
I know intellectually that if I hadn't given her the medications all along, she'd have been dead long ago. I know that if I hadn't gone to see the specialist and had my vet research the treatments, she would have been dead long ago. I even remember that we gave her a home knowing there was something wrong with her, although we mistakenly believed it was a heart problem, and that I had promised everyone that we would take her in and love her and make her life as pleasant as possible, but that I would not go to extraordinary lengths to keep her alive. Yet at this moment, I *feel* guilty of killing her, no matter what I know intellectually.
Fortunately I have a rotten memory, and this will probably seem like a distant dream in the not too distant future.
Posted by fayeroe on June 29, 2009, at 22:05:46
In reply to Re: It's so hard to know 'when', posted by Dinah on June 29, 2009, at 21:51:28
> Thank you. I'm very sorry that others have experienced what I'm experiencing.
>
> I know intellectually that if I hadn't given her the medications all along, she'd have been dead long ago. I know that if I hadn't gone to see the specialist and had my vet research the treatments, she would have been dead long ago.You gave her life. A good life.
I even remember that we gave her a home knowing there was something wrong with her, although we mistakenly believed it was a heart problem, and that I had promised everyone that we would take her in and love her and make her life as pleasant as possible, but that I would not go to extraordinary lengths to keep her alive. Yet at this moment, I *feel* guilty of killing her, no matter what I know intellectually.
Dinah, you offered her your heart and home knowing that she wasn't well. I won't say the percentage but I don't think that most people would have offered her that chance.
I understand exactly what you are saying.
I always feel that loss when I have to walk that final distance with a pet. But when I reflect upon the quality of their life..it helps me to know that I gave them a release.
>
> Fortunately I have a rotten memory, and this will probably seem like a distant dream in the not too distant future.It will get better as time goes by. In February, I would not have said that, as I didn't think it would get better after Fayeroe died. I miss her as much but I am handling it much better now.
Pat
Posted by Dinah on June 29, 2009, at 22:19:40
In reply to Re: It's so hard to know 'when' » Dinah, posted by fayeroe on June 29, 2009, at 22:05:46
Now I'm crying again, but in a better way. Thank you.
Posted by jane d on June 30, 2009, at 1:33:55
In reply to Re: It's so hard to know 'when' » fayeroe, posted by Dinah on June 29, 2009, at 22:19:40
Posted by seldomseen on June 30, 2009, at 7:21:42
In reply to Re: It's so hard to know 'when', posted by Dinah on June 29, 2009, at 21:51:28
I think you are a brave soul to extend your heart and home to a light that would soon burn out. You are to be admired.
I understand your grief and mourn with you.
Love and peace
Seldom.
Posted by Kath on June 30, 2009, at 19:53:42
In reply to Re: It's so hard to know 'when', posted by Dinah on June 29, 2009, at 21:51:28
So sorry for your loss & your pain Dinah.
love, Kath
Posted by Dinah on July 1, 2009, at 23:34:11
In reply to (((((((((((((((you)))))))))))) » Dinah, posted by Kath on June 30, 2009, at 19:53:42
My vet told my son today, in a perfectly serious tone of voice, that he had a wonderful mother, or something to that effect. It made me feel less like a murderer. (And my son seemed suitably impressed - although I'm sure he was skeptical.)
Posted by Kath on July 2, 2009, at 16:20:37
In reply to Thank you, posted by Dinah on July 1, 2009, at 23:34:11
> My vet told my son today, in a perfectly serious tone of voice, that he had a wonderful mother, or something to that effect. It made me feel less like a murderer. (And my son seemed suitably impressed - although I'm sure he was skeptical.)
~ ~ ~ Well for goodness sake, you kept that little sweetie alive & happy for WAYYYYYYYYYY longer than anyone thought possible, no?
Of course you're wonderful. But I get how you might feel. When my son's little cat got very ill (only about 2 years old) & didn't want to eat, I was 'working with' a vet who was willing to do follow-up over the phone. She was emphasizing bigtime, how important it was to keep the cat fed. Kali didn't WANT to eat. I was force-feeding her with a needle-removed syringe. She just wanted to sit outside curled up in the sun. I'd bring her in & put her on the counter & she'd push my hand away with her weak little paw! I felt totally AWFUL. I was also keeping track of her temperature & checking in with vet. After some days it just became apparent to me that she was NOT getting better & my friend told me of her cat's awful experience of dying "naturally" & encouraged me that if I thought she was going to die, to have a vet help.
So I finally decided & the vet came to our house. But ya know, even to this day, like right now, when I think of it, I feel so dreadfully dreadful, mean, cruel & out-of-touch with Kali's true needs at the time. She knew she was ready & she just wanted to bask in the sun & fade. She was a real outdoor cat - LOVED going outside. And I'm sure the vet would have said I was wonderful! In hindsight it doesn't feel wonderful.
I'm glad the vet said that to your son.
luv, Kath
Posted by gardenergirl on July 6, 2009, at 10:39:57
In reply to Thank you, posted by Dinah on July 1, 2009, at 23:34:11
(((((((Dinah)))))))
I'm so sorry. It's so hard.
Thinking of you,
gg
This is the end of the thread.
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