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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Michael83 on December 8, 2007, at 4:10:13
Although logically, the concept of a personal God does not make sense to me, because of my intellectual humility I have reasoned that it is best to give God the benefit of the doubt and offer apologies for wrongs I have may have done.
However, I'm having the same problem I had before I had my "faith-breakdown" back in 2002, which lead to "religious downtime" for about 4 years.
The problem is that I'm constantly overwhelmed with guilt. For everything. For everything I did. For everything I could have done but didn't.
The truth is that we could all do more. I read a story once about 3 couples living in a house together (all of them with good paying jobs), sharing one car, and living modestly, only buying the things they need, and then donating all of their excess income to charity. They did this on basis of their religion. That impressed me.
Meanwhile, many many religious people who have high income with throw a thousand bucks or so into charity every year, but then go out and buy $40,000 SUVs, live in huge houses, and then go to church every Sunday thinking they're so kind and generous.
My problem is eventually I realized I could not lie to God, I had to be honest, and that I would never be happy living this modest life and donating everything you don't need to charity (which in my opinion, is what is asked of Christians). I could not grow up to be Ned Flanders. This lead to my religious downtime.
The process is starting all over again. Constant guilt. Everytime I read about a material object I want. Everytime I do something even slightly wrong.
Although I know I am an incredibly nice person to most, I'm also very patient and forgiving to most, I'm still constantly overwhelmed with guilt knowing that I can do more.
I only have one life, and I don't know if there is anything after this and I don't know if I'm being judged, and I don't know given my mental problems (which have gotten less extreme, but more consistent in the past 6 months) will be an alibi for my lifestyle.
Will I end up getting everything I want from life but only end up feeling guilty for having it?
If I could comprehend and know for sure that there is a God and something after this, the choice wouldn't be hard. But the human mind is fragile and our limited abilities to comprehend the nature of our existence makes it impossible for me to know anything is certain.
When thinking about religious and existential matters, it's to the point where logic and reason doesn't connect with me because my mind has an automatic reflex to think, "well what if...!!" and think up some extreme what if scenario. To the point where almost nothing is certain and facts don't exist.
I'm just confused and scared and I hope I don't fall into another big panic attack like what happened last time. Atleast no one has to worry about me hurting myself, my fear is death, so I guess that's an insurance policy against self harm. I was very careful how I worded this message because I didn't want to trigger any illogical "lines of thought" in others, like those that have plagued me. I just needed to vent. I'm so scared all the time. =( I wish someone would stop me from thinking so much about everything, especially so pessimistically.
Posted by Phil on December 8, 2007, at 7:44:32
In reply to Constantly overwhelmed with religious guilt., posted by Michael83 on December 8, 2007, at 4:10:13
I had a counselor at a big church here in Austin tell me,"The new age people have one thing right, guilt is a wasted emotion."
If there is a God that's actually involved on a personal level in our lives, you can bet he knows our individual struggles, our self-doubt, our pain, and our heart.
Most of all, God is love. He wants to sustain us.
I heard an unrelated Mark Twain quote the other day: I like Heaven for the climate and Hell for the company.
I hope you can let the guilt go--we're all imperfect, we hurt others, we're all sinners.
We're the ones Jesus came for.(Step down from podium)
Posted by Dinah on December 8, 2007, at 8:08:09
In reply to Constantly overwhelmed with religious guilt., posted by Michael83 on December 8, 2007, at 4:10:13
Perhaps you or your therapist or pdoc should look into scrupulousness, or scrupulosity. It's considered a form of OCD. I remember hearing about it in a college ethics class, and came across it later while researching OCD.
Posted by Phillipa on December 8, 2007, at 12:27:24
In reply to Re: Constantly overwhelmed with religious guilt. » Michael83, posted by Dinah on December 8, 2007, at 8:08:09
Dinah well then I have a form of it too as I am guilty about everything. I am a horrible person I should be the mother and feel good like I did before and be not afraid and just accept like everyone else seems to do. Phillipa
Posted by seldomseen on December 8, 2007, at 15:13:49
In reply to Constantly overwhelmed with religious guilt., posted by Michael83 on December 8, 2007, at 4:10:13
"Meanwhile, many many religious people who have high income with throw a thousand bucks or so into charity every year, but then go out and buy $40,000 SUVs, live in huge houses, and then go to church every Sunday thinking they're so kind and generous."
So...
Are you saying that I'm a hypocrite because I may make a salary commensurate to my training and skill set, drive a safer car, and afford my family a comfortable place to live?
I'm just asking for a clarification here.
Posted by Sigismund on December 8, 2007, at 19:43:51
In reply to Constantly overwhelmed with religious guilt., posted by Michael83 on December 8, 2007, at 4:10:13
>wish someone would stop me from thinking so much about everything, especially so pessimistically.
You've got the wrong bloke here. I'm no help with that at all.
There's a lot of stuff you mention. My first response is that these days we don't feel enough guilt. But some people do, and way too much.
The positive way of looking at this is to say that you are taking the demands of Christianity seriously, and that is to your credit.
>If I could comprehend and know for sure that there is a God and something after this, the choice wouldn't be hard.
Well, of course not.
But if your reason for acting well is eternal reward, that doesn't cut the mustard either, does it?Michael, what do you fear about death?
I remember when I first realised it applied to me and I was appalled.
But as I've gotten older I feel more and more that it is the temporary nature of life that gives me the capacity to appreciate it.
Posted by seldomseen on December 8, 2007, at 20:42:37
In reply to Needle in the camel's eye » Michael83, posted by Sigismund on December 8, 2007, at 19:43:51
"But as I've gotten older I feel more and more that it is the temporary nature of life that gives me the capacity to appreciate it."
That's probably rings the most true of what I've read on babble.
Posted by Michael83 on December 8, 2007, at 20:50:28
In reply to Re: Constantly overwhelmed with religious guilt. » Michael83, posted by Dinah on December 8, 2007, at 8:08:09
I've never seen a therapist or pdoc, but if I did, I'm sure they would tell me I have OCD, at the least. This is just one of the obsessive things I do.
In relation to this, recently I have found myself to be bowing my head for a quick moment everytime I see a church and thinking "forgive me." If I don't do it, or miss it, I feel tremendous guilt. Like I let God/Jesus down.
Posted by Michael83 on December 8, 2007, at 20:59:10
In reply to Re: Constantly overwhelmed with religious guilt. » Michael83, posted by seldomseen on December 8, 2007, at 15:13:49
>>>>Are you saying that I'm a hypocrite because I may make a salary commensurate to my training and skill set, drive a safer car, and afford my family a comfortable place to live?
I'm not pointing fingers at anyone and everyone is free to interpret religious text as they please, at least unless God says otherwise.
I'm only saying that many people don't take the possibility of life after this seriously.
Who cares about a bigger house or nicer car or being paid fairly if God has planned for us a Heaven filled with things greater than anything on Earth? Wouldn't we all be living lives similar to Mother Teresa (not an exaggeration)? If it was all right there, out in front of us, I think many people would change their lifestyle. But this is not a criticism of you, this is my interpretation of how I feel urged to practice it. You can do what you like.
But this has been my problem. I feel like if I cannot live my entire life dedicated to doing good (which I cannot and still be happy), I would only feel like a hypocrite doing Christianity "half way." Only being Christian for 1 hour every Sunday and living my life the other 6+ days of the week. I would feel like I'm disrespecting God. I feel like it's better for me to be honest with God and just say I'm sorry and live my life as is and hope I'm forgiven. Like my choice is all or nothing.
Posted by Michael83 on December 8, 2007, at 21:03:18
In reply to Re: Constantly overwhelmed with religious guilt. » Michael83, posted by Phil on December 8, 2007, at 7:44:32
>>>>we're all imperfect, we hurt others, we're all sinners.
But where is the line drawn? I think God would make it clear as to where it's drawn so that those who wanted to go to heaven had the chance. Not like having a test in school and the teacher not telling you at what percentage is considered a "passing grade." I can't find the line. Even ideologies like "do your best" can be interpreted differently. My best that makes me happy (which would be best balanced by my human nature), or my absolute best (with no regard to anything else, just my best no matter what is in the way?)? See I don't know.
Posted by Dinah on December 8, 2007, at 21:05:04
In reply to Re: Constantly overwhelmed with religious guilt. » Dinah, posted by Michael83 on December 8, 2007, at 20:50:28
There are excellent therapies and medications for OCD. I mostly consider mine to be in remission, although there are flareups from time to time. You might want to try consulting a psychiatrist or therapist.
The irony is that scrupulousness is not considered a virtue by the church. The church's belief is that it is better to trust in God's grace and power. Or at least that's my recollection as to what was said when I bowled my professor over with a "THAT'S IT!!!!!" I could be wrong, but I'm sure you can google it.
Posted by Dinah on December 8, 2007, at 21:11:33
In reply to Re: Constantly overwhelmed with religious guilt. » seldomseen, posted by Michael83 on December 8, 2007, at 20:59:10
There is more than one way to serve God. It's possible to serve God while earning a living (by acting with integrity), while driving an SUV (by committing random acts of kindness, and driving with care), by loving others, by raising children with values, by treating our families with love and compassion. Anything we do with love and gratitude can be a way of serving God.
Or so is my belief.
Posted by MidnightBlue on December 8, 2007, at 21:47:46
In reply to Constantly overwhelmed with religious guilt., posted by Michael83 on December 8, 2007, at 4:10:13
You might try reading the book "Guilt and Grace" by Paul Tournier. He is a Christian and a psychiatrist.
Midnightblue
Posted by Michael83 on December 9, 2007, at 2:11:14
In reply to Needle in the camel's eye » Michael83, posted by Sigismund on December 8, 2007, at 19:43:51
>>>Michael, what do you fear about death?
I'm too afraid to mention it specifically, but I want to go to Heaven. But I have conflicting and unsure instructions on how to get there.
Posted by Sigismund on December 9, 2007, at 4:09:23
In reply to Re: Needle in the camel's eye » Sigismund, posted by Michael83 on December 9, 2007, at 2:11:14
It's not fair to judge heaven by the descriptions of it that one has come across.
Choirs of angels (hang on, angels are the best bit), all that glory, power and might, serried ranks singing hosannas, or worse, some suburbia with Bambi and a lion on the lawn, beyond the curbing.This is the best heaven I've heard of.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFgcvQeMF6wSome eastern ideas say, I believe, that God is like very deep sleep.
Posted by rskontos on December 9, 2007, at 11:38:28
In reply to Heaven » Michael83, posted by Sigismund on December 9, 2007, at 4:09:23
Michael have you ever seen the faithful obessessing over being faithful. I think fear in and of itself is limiting. I too was afraid of death and then suddenly one day I wasn't. I know why and it is the knowing that set me free. I think you must figure out what is motivated your fear. I did and it was not what I expected.
Therapy could help you with that. Or maybe a minister....I don't know it was therapy that helped me.
I wish you luck. rsk
Posted by seldomseen on December 9, 2007, at 15:07:13
In reply to Re: Constantly overwhelmed with religious guilt. » seldomseen, posted by Michael83 on December 8, 2007, at 20:59:10
Micheal,
I do think that you need some help and need some relief from this burden you carry.
It really does appear as though you have a form of OCD called scrupulosity as mentioned before.
It is characterized by an over focus on certain aspects of a religion, while potentially ignoring other aspects.
There is help out there.
Please read this page and see if it rings true to you.
http://www.ncpamd.com/scrup.htm
Seldom.
Posted by Michael83 on December 11, 2007, at 0:39:56
In reply to Re: Constantly overwhelmed with religious guilt. » Michael83, posted by seldomseen on December 9, 2007, at 15:07:13
Thank you for the link and it does ring familiar. I'm not some ultra-conservative type. I just feel like if you're going to be religious, you've got to do it right, OR at least admit to God that you're doing it wrong. I tend to be on side of admitting I'm wrong and asking for forgiveness, consumed with guilt.
Posted by seldomseen on December 11, 2007, at 7:45:50
In reply to Re: Constantly overwhelmed with religious guilt. » seldomseen, posted by Michael83 on December 11, 2007, at 0:39:56
I hear and understand what you say.
Is there more you can do to be a good christian? I don't know. But could you ever do enough?
what did you think of the combined therapy with a minister and a psychiatrist?
Posted by linkadge on December 11, 2007, at 15:14:11
In reply to Constantly overwhelmed with religious guilt., posted by Michael83 on December 8, 2007, at 4:10:13
Intersting post. I agree with, you can't lie to God. I have come to believe that God takes on a different from than that explicitly portrayed in the Bible. Sure aspects of his depiction in the Bible make sence, and thats what makes it hard for me to reject as a whole.
Sometimes, for me the best way to get out of religious guilt is in rage. I get pissed off at God like I've never been pissed off at anyone before. It he was standing infront of me I'd punch him in the face and say, "get off your lazy *ss and do something about this world".
Anyhow, that doesn't really get me anywhere. But like you say, theres no point in lying to god. If I'm angry, and I just supress my anger, he's going to know my thoughts anyway.
Anyhow, I guess what I am saying is that you need a way to transform your guilt? Does it make sense that God really wants you to be immobilized with guilt?
If God is going to zap me down for saying what I feel, then I'd have been zapped down years ago.
God created you. If anyone should be guilty for your lack of perfection it should be him. He can do anything, and so your lack of perfection is his fault. Thats the way I see it anyway.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on December 11, 2007, at 15:26:32
In reply to Re: Constantly overwhelmed with religious guilt. » Michael83, posted by seldomseen on December 11, 2007, at 7:45:50
More than half of my church is on pyschiatric medications. So, the way I see it either religion makes people crazy, or crazy people are drawn to religion.
And yes, God told me in a vision last night that he frowns upon the rich. He asked me to request that rich people send their money to Linkadge ministries, P.O. Box.....
Linkadge
Posted by Phillipa on December 11, 2007, at 18:55:35
In reply to Re: Constantly overwhelmed with religious guilt., posted by linkadge on December 11, 2007, at 15:26:32
That would be Canada right? Michael your're a good person I'm sure of that. Phillipa
Posted by Michael83 on December 12, 2007, at 2:45:15
In reply to Re: Constantly overwhelmed with religious guilt. » Michael83, posted by seldomseen on December 11, 2007, at 7:45:50
>>>>what did you think of the combined therapy with a minister and a psychiatrist?
To be honest, I'm very skeptical either could help me.
A psychiatrist would simply have me put on medications. A Priest/Minister would give me some fluffy feel good statement or just tell me to see a psychiatrist.
The problem is worst than what I have described on this forum. When it comes to trying to understanding the world, my logic is broken, and my connection with reality becomes fuzzy.
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 12, 2007, at 3:34:08
In reply to Heaven » Michael83, posted by Sigismund on December 9, 2007, at 4:09:23
> It's not fair to judge heaven by the descriptions of it that one has come across.
Sorry to interrupt, but I'd like further discussion about heaven to be redirected to Psycho-Babble Faith. Thanks,
Bob
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