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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Sigismund on June 14, 2007, at 22:47:14
Does anyone have any comment on the assertion that as sexual shame has declined a culture (political, Paris, you name it) of shamelessness has arisen?
If it's not the decline of sexual shame, then what is it?
The ease of the repentance>forgiveness trajectory?
Decline of the class system?
(Soon I'll be wanting to bring back public hangings.
Well, maybe not.)
Posted by Sigismund on June 14, 2007, at 22:56:36
In reply to Sex , Politics and Religion., posted by Sigismund on June 14, 2007, at 22:47:14
Booted out of Psychology, goodness gracious here we are.
Posted by Phillipa on June 14, 2007, at 23:06:30
In reply to Re: Sex , Politics and Religion., posted by Sigismund on June 14, 2007, at 22:56:36
Did you post on psychology interesting to see the difference in answers maybe Love PJ
Posted by Dinah on June 15, 2007, at 0:24:17
In reply to Sex , Politics and Religion., posted by Sigismund on June 14, 2007, at 22:47:14
It's an interesting idea, but I'm not sure that I agree with the two main parts of the assertion.
Maybe it's just because I'm from the South in the US, but sexual shame seems alive and well. Sure the tv might not look like it's so, but it is.
And I'm not altogether sure culture has become shameless either. In some ways I think we're more disappointed now because we expect more. And we expect more because we're educated to expect certain standards. I can't recall a time in human history where bigotry was as frowned upon as it is today, or where so many people gave a darn about the environment or the source of their nourishment. I often reflect that those scruples are something only a culture with a fair amount of abundance can afford.
Which does not mean that I don't decry the quality of TV programming, or the universal TV assumption that sex is obligatory on the third date. But I also remember my classmates. We grew up in a time even more sexually shameless than this one, I think. Yet I've never met a group of people who exerted more positive peer pressure on each other.
(But this does not in any way mean that I'm an optimist, or that I am in any way rosy eyed about the nature of mankind, or anything like that.)
I do recall something about sexual repression giving rise to great achievement through the redirecting of energies. But I suppose I've never given a great deal of credence to the idea that an era where sexual repression was the ideal was an era when there was actually less sexual activity.
On the other hand, it is rather refreshing to think of a time when a glimpse of a shapely ankle or calf would be exciting. Life was surely more titillating then than now when nearly naked women and men are everywhere you look. It's amazing that anyone can find anything sexually interesting anymore.
But I may have digressed a bit.
Posted by Dinah on June 15, 2007, at 0:25:23
In reply to Re: Sex , Politics and Religion. » Sigismund, posted by Dinah on June 15, 2007, at 0:24:17
If the subject line wasn't notice enough.
Posted by fayeroe on June 15, 2007, at 16:59:32
In reply to Sex , Politics and Religion., posted by Sigismund on June 14, 2007, at 22:47:14
when your eight year old granddaughter comes home from school telling you thinks that almost make you faint.........we've had a loss of sexual shame.......because where are these kids hearing this stuff? (and seeing it) at home.......i saw some little five and six year old boys simulating the sex act with their movements........
i definitely believe there isn't enough "sexual shame" now..........pat p.s. wait til P gets out of jail and turns the whole world around by becoming a sexless role models for all of the little girls in the world!!!!!!!!
Posted by Sigismund on June 15, 2007, at 17:31:25
In reply to Re: Sex , Politics and Religion. » Sigismund, posted by Dinah on June 15, 2007, at 0:24:17
In Tess of the D'Urbevilles, Thomas Hardy does what then would have been a sex scene merely by mentioning each (of the many) items of clothing Tess has taken off. It is quite erotic, and it feels as if he was pushing the boundaries at the time. There is no mention of her otherwise in this piece, so it is clever and affecting.
When I think of shamelessness I never *meet* anyone like this, I encounter them through the media. They are our celebrities, our politicians, and to some extent our media commentators. When I was growing up there was Richard Burton and Eliizabeth Taylor, who moved in an entirely different universe. Politicians like JFK and Lyndon Johnson at least liked to keep to the proprieties. They were happy enough to lie, but not so happy if the public knew they were doing so (quite unlike today). In other words they respected the standards they did not always keep. Much like, now that I think of it, the religion I grew up with. None of the men believed. They came back from Communion with a strange look on their faces that I now realise was embarrassment. I asked my mother what they were all doing up there and she said something about a body, so I thought that it had something to do with sex. But everyone agreed on the general standards. They were all middle class, they'd been through the war, and they were relieved thet things were so good and their desires rested there. That peculiar combination of very high incomes and New Age religion would have astonished them.
I shall have to read David Runciman's book on the history of hypocrisy in political thought from Hobbes to Orwell when it comes out. In the meantime there is "The Politics of Good Intentions. History, Fear and Hypocrisy in the New World Order".In the 70s everyone (at university, who had nothing better to do) was talking about alienation and powerlessness, and I assume that's where empowerment came from. All of a sudden fathers who pulled out the chair or opened the door for their wives (to say nothing of their daughters) were liable to withering scorn. With this kind of stuff you never know what causes what. It's just continual corruption and renewal in the turbulence of history.
Of course some of us are too ashamed to show our faces, and I certainly sympathise, having felt like this myself.
Posted by Dinah on June 15, 2007, at 17:44:37
In reply to Re: Sex , Politics and Religion., posted by Sigismund on June 15, 2007, at 17:31:25
Do you know that I get a lot of flack for approving of hypocrisy? I generally look more favorably upon people realizing that there are standards and values that should be adhered to (even if they personally don't) than I do on people dismantling the standards so that they don't have to be hypocrites.
That was another point that got me in trouble in Sunday School, where I must admit the very kind ladies were likely neither lacking in standards nor hypocrites and could safely object to both. I suppose that is the true thing to aspire to.
Still, as you say, I see little evidence of it in real life, and I suspect media life is a bit distorted.
Posted by fayeroe on June 15, 2007, at 18:23:20
In reply to Re: Sex , Politics and Religion., posted by Sigismund on June 15, 2007, at 17:31:25
Posted by Quintal on June 15, 2007, at 21:46:30
In reply to Sex , Politics and Religion., posted by Sigismund on June 14, 2007, at 22:47:14
I've noticed a definite lack of sexual shame here - there were a couple of teenage chavs having sex on the lawn outside my aunt's neighbor's bungalow last summer, in broad daylight and in full view of the CCTV camera their neighbor had installed too. I suspect they chose the spot for that very reason. When my aunt went out and asked them to go elsewhere they just said "Were you never young once?" and carried on, with even greater vigor, perhaps because of the trill of having an audience. Their elderly neighbor came out an protested "But they're not even married!!!". I think they may have been on drugs of some kind, or maybe just plain drunk.
There seems to be a great divide between shame in the gay community. I used to buy a magazine called 'Gay Times' but I got annoyed and put off by the shameless promiscuity. There were often articles on things like how best to organize your lovers and one-night stands in a sort of rota system while maintaining the open relationship with your long-term partner. I found the whole thing very cynical and off-putting. Then I actually got involved in such a dalliance with a guy who said he was in an open relationship. I never saw any evidence that the other guy actually existed, it was all very odd and uncomfortable. I stopped seeing him after a few months because it didn't feel right. There was something so very cold and un-erotic about it. Then there's the opposite extreme, gay men that marry women rather than accept their sexuality and live with all it entails. There was a documentary about it here a few years ago where a religious community were recruiting women to marry gay men so that they could live sinlessly, yet according to the guys themselves they undermined the sanctity of that marriage with illicit affairs or smoldered with covert lust. Their wives coped by just refusing to think about it. Hypocrisy in both cases I guess, but sometimes decisions we make in real life seem right at the time, even when they go against the values we hold in principle. Such is life I suppose.
Q
Posted by Phillipa on June 15, 2007, at 22:20:32
In reply to Re: Sex , Politics and Religion., posted by Quintal on June 15, 2007, at 21:46:30
Quintal I have to comment as I know a few gay men married with children wives were well aware but they wanted to have children and a relationship with a woman. My best friend was gay, married, wife had the big job and he took care of the kids a MR Mom type guy. Used to have me and another friend woman over for lunch all the time boy could he cook. His wife may have been gay too don't know. I don't judge people on their sexual preference as it's their business just what they do behind closed doors. Don't agree with the teen story. Love Phillipa
Posted by Quintal on June 15, 2007, at 22:32:53
In reply to Re: Sex , Politics and Religion. » Quintal, posted by Phillipa on June 15, 2007, at 22:20:32
Yes Phillipa I know. The guys in that documentary didn't marry because they wanted children particularly, they said wanted to live according to the Christian way of life because they considered homosexuality immoral - yet they freely admitted to having affairs with other men while married. That's what I found odd.
Q
Posted by Phillipa on June 15, 2007, at 22:54:59
In reply to Re: Sex , Politics and Religion. » Phillipa, posted by Quintal on June 15, 2007, at 22:32:53
Personality wise the guy was a mother type and his wife was assertive. I don't think he cheated on her as we worked 3-ll and Sat and Sunday 7am-7pm. Different times those schedules. The only way I knew was that if another gay person came on the unit he laughed in a high pitch and his voice changed. They have a good marriage wasn't for morality. Spent time out with their kids as a family. I think it works great for some. Love Phillipa gay men are just wonderful the ones I know as their was never any competition between the females either. Non threatening.
Posted by fayeroe on June 15, 2007, at 23:24:55
In reply to Re: Sex , Politics and Religion. » Phillipa, posted by Quintal on June 15, 2007, at 22:32:53
i have two gay friends and they have an open relationship. one is "dad" and the other is his boy........:::::::::::::: every once in awhile, i shout "too much information"........they are very loving towards one another but stray all the time. i can't say that i'm okay with it.....but it's their life.......
Posted by Nathan_Arizona on June 16, 2007, at 11:32:19
In reply to Sex , Politics and Religion., posted by Sigismund on June 14, 2007, at 22:47:14
Maybe it's just me, but I just don't see anything shameful about sex.
What I find shameful is the level of violence that is tolerated in society today.
Why is it "better" to watch people shoot others on TV/movies or actually participate first person in video games than have sex?
I personally don't know.
Posted by fayeroe on June 16, 2007, at 18:10:43
In reply to Re: Sex , Politics and Religion. » Sigismund, posted by Nathan_Arizona on June 16, 2007, at 11:32:19
> Maybe it's just me, but I just don't see anything shameful about sex.
>
> What I find shameful is the level of violence that is tolerated in society today.
>
> Why is it "better" to watch people shoot others on TV/movies or actually participate first person in video games than have sex?
>
> I personally don't know.I don't see anything shameful about "sex".....I abhor violence in movies and on television. And in real life.
What bothers me is how it has become trivialized and sensationlized. I believe that younger people are going down a long and darker road than older generations did.
Having worked in a teen dentention center as a counselor, I saw how 11 year olds have been affected by what they have seen and heard. I was driving down the street one day and saw a former "client" (instead of prisoner) working the corner. She was 14.
That threw me for a loop, even though I knew her background. Had met her parents.
Sex within itself is a good thing. Outside of sensible boundaries, for myself, it worries me that messages are being sent and received and acted upon and they will come home to roost someday.
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This is the end of the thread.
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