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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by AuntieMel on February 2, 2006, at 14:14:09
She's waiting to find out if there will be a plea agreement, or if she will have to go to trial again. Meanwhile the (very sensible, in my book) judge gave her bail (200K) instead of having her wait in the county jail until march.
The condition of bail is that she will remain in a state mental health hospital until trial time.
If anyone deserves for the insanity defense to work, she does. She's a very sick lady.
Posted by Racer on February 2, 2006, at 20:33:34
In reply to Andrea Yates made bail, posted by AuntieMel on February 2, 2006, at 14:14:09
Yeah, the insanity defense was created specifically for people like her and the Ohio sniper. People who, in these cases, committed a crime because of command hallucinations or the like. "She knew the difference between right and wrong!" Uh, but the voices told her to do it, saying it was right? Not to put too find a point on it, that's what PSYCHOSIS means, that someone isn't competent?
I'm so glad that she is getting a new trial/plea agreement. And I agree that she needs to be in a hospital. And I think her psychiatrist should be in jail, since he stopped her medications shortly before this happened without any sort of follow up despite overwhelming evidence that she was very much in need of treatment. And I hope that reason and compassion prevail this time, and she is treated, not punished. I hope she will one day be free, too.
Posted by Emily Elizabeth on February 2, 2006, at 20:35:46
In reply to Andrea Yates made bail, posted by AuntieMel on February 2, 2006, at 14:14:09
Andrea's story is so tragic. I feel like her husband should be held responsible for something. After all, he watched her mentally deteriorate, did not make sure that she had treatment, and left her alone to watch the kids. Why should she go to prison and he get off w/o punishment?
Best,
EE
Posted by Phillipa on February 2, 2006, at 20:39:36
In reply to Re: Andrea Yates made bail, posted by Emily Elizabeth on February 2, 2006, at 20:35:46
Okay ignorance again who is Andrea Yates and what happened? Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by deirdrehbrt on February 2, 2006, at 20:49:11
In reply to Re: Andrea Yates made bail, posted by Phillipa on February 2, 2006, at 20:39:36
She drowned her (I think it was 5) kids in the bath tub. Then she called her husband, and the police. She was truly sick at the time and in desparate need of proper treatment.
Emily, I don't really agree that her husband needs to be punished, as I'm not sure that he FULLY understood his wife's condition. The doctor who was treating her should have his/her license pulled at a minimum.
This is truly a case where a woman was completely failed by her health care providers. I used to work with someone who didn't believe in the insanity defense. He believed that if someone committed a crime they should go to prison, period. What's weird is that he had experienced mental illness (depression and a suicide attempt) and still didn't understand that people who are that sick truly may not be able to make any kind of rational decision.
Sadly, there are lots of people out there just like him. They think that we are responsible not only for what we do, but for how we feel. "Just pick yourself up and do something". I don't think these people will change. It stinks, but Andrea may yet face such as these in the court room again.
--Dee
Posted by TexasChic on February 2, 2006, at 21:05:00
In reply to Re: Andrea Yates made bail, posted by deirdrehbrt on February 2, 2006, at 20:49:11
Wow! I completely expected everyone's response to be that the insanity defense is a crock and she should go to jail. I guess I forgot where I was. I can guarantee that would be the reaction around here. I think I'm too liberal for the part of the country I live in. Its weird to always be the lone person with the 'bleeding heart liberal' opinion, and then come here and find so many people to my way of thinking. But then, AuntieMel is in this area too, so maybe I just need to look harder for more like minded people.
-T
Posted by alexandra_k on February 2, 2006, at 21:29:00
In reply to Re: Andrea Yates made bail, posted by TexasChic on February 2, 2006, at 21:05:00
i think the length of the sentance should be the same whether you are legally insane or not. the only difference should be where you serve your sentance - jail / mental institution.
i think jail / mental institutions both should be about education and prevention of reoffending. i believe in rehabilitative justice rather than retributive justice.
but...
probably a little too radical for y'all...
Posted by TexasChic on February 2, 2006, at 21:37:03
In reply to Re: Andrea Yates made bail, posted by alexandra_k on February 2, 2006, at 21:29:00
No, I completely agree. Prison doesn't rehabilitate, it only produces better criminals. I don't know what the solution is, but our current system definitely isn't working.
-T
Posted by deirdrehbrt on February 2, 2006, at 22:24:17
In reply to Re: Andrea Yates made bail » alexandra_k, posted by TexasChic on February 2, 2006, at 21:37:03
I disagree a bit with Alexandra. I don't like the idea of "sentencing" someone for a specified period of time to a hospital. What Andrea did was a symptom of illness, not a deliberate act of violence. It's like someone having a sudden heart attack while driving and killing a family in another car. If this person survives the heart attack, should they then be brought up on charges for vehicular homicide as would a repeat offender drunk driver?
Both of the above cases were the result of illness, severe and uncontrolled. There are other cases when someone gets angry and beats someone to death, and the insanity defense is tried, but in those cases, the person does know what they are doing. That isn't illness, that's just acting out on anger. That person should be imprisoned.
I think that Andrea is going to have a near impossible time recovering from this incident. To have to wake up every day for the rest of her life listening to the silence of her missing children, and knowing that she created that silence would be horrible beyond belief. Though the act wasn't her responsibility, she shall pay for it for the rest of her life.
I think she deserves treatment. Her doctor failed her. I think her husband needs education. He needs to know Andrea's warning signs, and needs to remain vigilant. Andrea needs support from her local mental heath agency, people who will remain involved in her life and quickly notice changes.
She will maybe need life-long monitoring of her condition. I do not think that that monitoring should take place behind bars. As I said, she will suffer for the rest of her life.
--Dee
Posted by Gabbix2 on February 2, 2006, at 22:55:50
In reply to Re: Andrea Yates made bail, posted by deirdrehbrt on February 2, 2006, at 22:24:17
I don't see the idea of prison being about rehabilitation and education being remotely radical.
It seems to be a fairly common idea, even if it's not always put into practice. That's why prisoners are allowed free University education and job training, and counselling while serving their sentence, at least in Canada, and I think the U.SI don't understand though, acknowledging a difference between sane and insane acts, but having the same length of incarceration for both.
I agree with Diedrehbrt on that issue for sure.
Posted by alexandra_k on February 2, 2006, at 23:02:17
In reply to Re: Andrea Yates made bail » alexandra_k, posted by TexasChic on February 2, 2006, at 21:37:03
> ... Prison doesn't rehabilitate, it only produces better criminals.
or it kills them. in some states anyways...
Posted by alexandra_k on February 2, 2006, at 23:09:51
In reply to Re: Andrea Yates made bail, posted by deirdrehbrt on February 2, 2006, at 22:24:17
> I don't like the idea of "sentencing" someone for a specified period of time to a hospital.
Even when the goal of hospital is education and rehabilitation and prevention of reoffending? It could actually be an opportunity... To get some decent therapy. To get on some decent meds. To get some kind of education. To discover something worthwhile to do...
> What Andrea did was a symptom of illness, not a deliberate act of violence.
Intention can be a hard thing to figure...
I personally think intention is less important than is often supposed (mostly because of difficulties in assessing it).
You can disregard completely...
And you can focus on consequences.
If people have minimal negative consequences for violent crimes then the number of violent crimes in the population goes up...
If there are negative consequences for violent crimes then there are less violent crimes in the population...
It isn't just about her
It is about other people who see the consequences that she gets
And that goes on to affect their behavior too> Though the act wasn't her responsibility...
That is a hard one to assess... I think the only relevant point is that she did in fact commit the act. Who is to say that it won't happen again? I think it is a tragedy all round...
> she shall pay for it for the rest of her life.
I don't think either imprisonment or mental institutions should be about 'paying' or 'retribution'. I think they should be about prevention of offending...
> I think she deserves treatment.
I think everybody deserves treatment. Has a right to. And don't the criminals who end up in jail tend to have anti-social personality?
> She will maybe need life-long monitoring of her condition.
Yep. Hence... Mental institution.
Posted by alexandra_k on February 2, 2006, at 23:14:03
In reply to Re: Andrea Yates made bail » deirdrehbrt, posted by Gabbix2 on February 2, 2006, at 22:55:50
> I don't understand though, acknowledging a difference between sane and insane acts, but having the same length of incarceration for both.
The acts are the same the consequences are the same.
The difference is that people who are sentanced to a mental institution could benefit from such things as medication and psychotherapy.
I think how it is supposed to go is that the psychiatric cases are supposed to be controllable with meds or whatever so the person won't likely re-offend. But what assurance is their of that? Is it any wonder that most criminals will have a go at the insanity defence?
Assessment... Is a can of worms... I don't think it is good. I dont' really see much of a distinction.
But then I am a determinist. And I also believe that if I had Hitlers genes and environment then I would have all his experiences and I would have done everything that he did do.
Once again... Prevention of reoffending and rehabilitation.
Too radical yet?
Posted by Tabitha on February 2, 2006, at 23:22:41
In reply to Andrea Yates made bail, posted by AuntieMel on February 2, 2006, at 14:14:09
>
>
> If anyone deserves for the insanity defense to work, she does. She's a very sick lady.Totally agree. When she was convicted, I just suspected the jury couldn't overcome the huge prejudice against a woman who kills her own children.
Posted by Phillipa on February 2, 2006, at 23:30:28
In reply to Re: Andrea Yates made bail » AuntieMel, posted by Tabitha on February 2, 2006, at 23:22:41
I have to comment I worked parttime in a jail. The psychiatric and medical care is atrocious. They may be given medication but they are not monitored in taking the meds. A lot of prisoners stash their meds or sell them trade them to other prisoners. And meds don't help anti-social personalities as it is a personality disorder not chemical. So what to do I don't know but there needs to better psychiatric treatment in prisons. And as far as theraphy goes I'm no expert on that and don't profess to be but to my knowledge they have AA, NA meetings. Don't know of group theraphy. Maybe pet theraphy for those who qualify. We definitely have problems in this country. Should be a State Mental Hospital or a Prison? I don't know Fondly , Phillipa
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 2, 2006, at 23:52:23
In reply to Re: Andrea Yates made bail, posted by Phillipa on February 2, 2006, at 23:30:28
> I have to comment I worked parttime in a jail. The psychiatric and medical care is atrocious...
Sorry to interrupt, but I'd like to redirect this thread to Psycho-Babble Politics. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/poli/20051121/msgs/605722.html
Thanks,
Bob
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