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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by pseudoname on January 1, 2006, at 14:47:55
—Slightly re-arranged excerpts from New York Times obituary (Dec 28 2005)—
Charles W. Socarides (sock-uh-REE-dees), a well-known psychiatrist and psychoanalyst who maintained publicly, long after it was considered scientifically acceptable to do so, that homosexuality was a condition amenable to treatment and even to conversion to heterosexuality, died on Sunday at Metropolitan Hospital Center in New York. He was 83 and lived on the Upper East Side of Manhattan.
The cause was heart failure, his [fifth*] wife, Claire Alford Socarides, said.
In his writings, public appearances and private practice, Dr. Socarides argued that homosexuality was a "neurotic adaptation" that in men stemmed from absent fathers and overly doting mothers. He estimated that he had helped 35 percent of his gay patients to "become heterosexual" and a slightly smaller percentage to control their gay impulses.
A frequent guest on television talk shows and news programs, Dr. Socarides wrote a half-dozen books about homosexuality. They included "The Overt Homosexual" (1968) and "Homosexuality: A Freedom Too Far"–A Psychoanalyst Answers 1,000 Questions About Causes and Cure and the Impact of the Gay Rights Movement on American Society (1995).
In 1992, Dr. Socarides helped found the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality. The primary mission of the organization, of which he was a past president, is "to make effective psychological therapy available to all homosexual men and women who seek change," according to its Web site.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
*He was divorced 3 times and had (I think) a 10-year common-law marriage with a fourth partner.Full article with photo at: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/28/nyregion/28socarides.html (Registration required)
The article mentions that his son Richard Socarides is openly gay and was an advisor to the Clinton administration on gay issues. They "managed to sustain a relationship, in part because both men refrained from discussing their work."
I wasn't sure where to post this (Politics? Social?), but Socarides insisted that homosexuality was a MEDICAL problem, so maybe his death can figuratively mark an end to that line of thinking?
Posted by linkadge on January 1, 2006, at 14:47:57
In reply to anti-gay Socarides is dead, posted by pseudoname on December 30, 2005, at 17:54:01
Well, good for his son.
Linkadge
Posted by declan on January 1, 2006, at 14:47:57
In reply to anti-gay Socarides is dead, posted by pseudoname on December 30, 2005, at 17:54:01
You expect more from psychoanalysis than this, and often enough you get/(got?) it, IMHO. One of the most attractive aspects of Freud's thingo for me was his therapeutic pessimism.
Declan
Posted by Phillipa on January 1, 2006, at 14:47:57
In reply to Re: anti-gay Socarides is dead, posted by declan on December 30, 2005, at 20:26:41
That's ridiculous to me homosexuality is something a person is born with. Your parents don't cause it. At least that's my understanding. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by crazy teresa on January 1, 2006, at 14:47:57
In reply to anti-gay Socarides is dead, posted by pseudoname on December 30, 2005, at 17:54:01
I'm always amazed that a person in this type of profession can be so bad at marriage, among other things.
Posted by pseudoname on January 1, 2006, at 14:47:57
In reply to Re: anti-gay Socarides is dead » pseudoname, posted by crazy teresa on December 30, 2005, at 21:33:53
> I'm always amazed that a person in this type of profession can be so bad at marriage
> Well, good for his son.
What's more, of the doc's five children, the only one to give him a grandchild was the gay son, who did so with his boyfriend...
Posted by crazy teresa on January 1, 2006, at 14:47:58
In reply to Re: good for his son, posted by pseudoname on December 30, 2005, at 22:13:59
Posted by Larry Hoover on January 1, 2006, at 14:47:58
In reply to Re: anti-gay Socarides is dead » pseudoname, posted by crazy teresa on December 30, 2005, at 21:33:53
> I'm always amazed that a person in this type of profession can be so bad at marriage, among other things.
Well, I'm not so sure he was very good in his profession, either. I think his base assumptions about people, and their drives, were so distorted that it seems more reasonable that his male-female relationships could not work, either.
Financial success is not a fair measure of scientific success. There were many sources of financial support for his philosophy and teachings which were arising from rich people with narrow ideology and hidden motives.
Let's hope that no one seeks to reclaim his domain.
Lar
Posted by thuso on January 1, 2006, at 23:28:47
In reply to Re: anti-gay Socarides is dead » crazy teresa, posted by Larry Hoover on December 30, 2005, at 23:11:39
>...arising from rich people with narrow ideology and hidden motives.
>
> Let's hope that no one seeks to reclaim his domain.
>ummmm....it's not narrow ideology...it's what those people choose to believe. Believe it or not...there are plenty of people out there right now who think heterosexuality/homosexuality/bisexuality is a choice. Is that also "narrow ideology" because it doesn't line up with what you believe?
And if anyone responds to this, please don't go arguing that it is proven fact that a person is born homosexual. It's not.
Posted by Larry Hoover on January 2, 2006, at 0:11:28
In reply to Re: anti-gay Socarides is dead » Larry Hoover, posted by thuso on January 1, 2006, at 23:28:47
> >...arising from rich people with narrow ideology and hidden motives.
> >
> > Let's hope that no one seeks to reclaim his domain.
> >
>
> ummmm....it's not narrow ideology...it's what those people choose to believe. Believe it or not...there are plenty of people out there right now who think heterosexuality/homosexuality/bisexuality is a choice.I don't think of it as a respectful position to adopt.
> Is that also "narrow ideology" because it doesn't line up with what you believe?
Touché. Fair question.
As I understand things to be, polls of homosexuals/bisexuals don't endorse the "choice" position with anywhere near the frequency of those put to heterosexuals expressing their opinion about homosexuals/bisexuals.
That's what guides me. The question doesn't apply to me, and I don't think it appropriate to project my beliefs into realms with which I am not intimately familiar. I also question that others feel entitled to do so, given the ethical concern I just expressed.
Lar
Posted by Declan on January 2, 2006, at 0:59:08
In reply to Re: anti-gay Socarides is dead » thuso, posted by Larry Hoover on January 2, 2006, at 0:11:28
I don't know what these words mean. Gay (as opposed to homosexual) is a recruiting drive/recent thing, which is fair enough.
It's fashion, isn't it? Intellectual/emotional fashion. Which is inescapable and OK.
There's the physical beauty ideal. There's who you want to have sex with. There's who you want to be touched by. I dunno.
I liked the Freudian thing, born bisexual, polymorphous perverse, it's probably wrong but....
Anyway I think people are tiring of the categorisations (and attendant responsibilities) a bit.
Declan
Posted by med_empowered on January 2, 2006, at 3:08:31
In reply to Re: anti-gay Socarides is dead, posted by Declan on January 2, 2006, at 0:59:08
I'm gay...I don't have any idea what "causes" homosexuality, though. Then again..I don't know what "causes" heterosexuality (or bisexuality, or celibacy), either. What bothers me about the study of homosexuality is that it really boils down to a study of deviance; the question seems to be "why are these people different from normal (heterosexual) people? Is this OK?"
I guess you could consider me "gay by choice"-- I enjoy being homosexual and its something I choose to pursue. I don't know if I could "fix" myself and become straight..then again, I don't really want to, so I'll never know.
What I think is ridiculous is that something like sexual preference can be such a big deal. It'd be like classifying people according to their favorite sexual positions or fetishes.
Anyway...too bad this guy's dead (although he seems have had a long run). Hopefully though, he was one of the last of his kind and we're approaching the end of an era when it comes to "fixing" lesbians and homosexuals via "therapy". There are so many *actual* problems to deal with (anxiety, depression, so on and so forth) that I find it inexcusable to waste time and resources pursuing homophobic/heterosexist "treatments".
Posted by crazy teresa on January 2, 2006, at 17:35:43
In reply to Re: anti-gay Socarides is dead, posted by med_empowered on January 2, 2006, at 3:08:31
It would be a really hard for me to choose my favorite sexual position. Let me practice and I'll get back to you so I can be catagorized! ;~}
How've things been going for you?
Posted by med_empowered on January 2, 2006, at 19:13:54
In reply to Hey Med!, posted by crazy teresa on January 2, 2006, at 17:35:43
hey! I'm doing better, I think. I'm about to re-start school, I'm starting a diet/exercise program, etc. How have you been?
Posted by Gabbix2 on January 2, 2006, at 19:49:11
In reply to Re: anti-gay Socarides is dead, posted by med_empowered on January 2, 2006, at 3:08:31
What bothers me about the study of homosexuality is that it really boils down to a study of deviance; the question seems to be "why are these people different from normal (heterosexual) people? Is this OK?"
>
Yeah, I know.. that's how I feel too.
Who cares? And if it's a choice (and I know for many it is not) so?What also irks me is the people who follow no other aspect of the bible, in fact they probably would have been stoned for their own lifestyle.. but they yank out the old "Well, the Bible says it's wrong!" because they have no other argument.
Ugh.
It annoys me.
Posted by crazy teresa on January 2, 2006, at 21:34:14
In reply to Re: Hey Med!, posted by med_empowered on January 2, 2006, at 19:13:54
I'm ok. Same old crap!
I'm so happy for you; starting school will be so goooood! I always enjoyed classes so much. Partly because I was older when I went, but the accomplishments were so gratifying and really helped lift that black cloud. I hope it does for you, too.
What kind of program are you on? I think I'm going to give up spending $$$ on losing weight and exercising. The only thing I should pay for is maybe someone to come kick my *ss when I'm not motivated to try harder! Need a job? ;~}
I'm so proud of you for taking charge of your life!
Posted by wildcard on January 2, 2006, at 23:07:48
In reply to Re: anti-gay Socarides is dead » med_empowered, posted by Gabbix2 on January 2, 2006, at 19:49:11
Posted by med_empowered on January 3, 2006, at 2:46:44
In reply to Re: Hey Med! » med_empowered, posted by crazy teresa on January 2, 2006, at 21:34:14
hey! I'm actually going to try a modified version of "Body For Life" The original plan seems good, except I'm trying to cut out meat from my diet so...I'm doing a vegetarian version of the plan. Plus, I haven't exercised in forever, so it'll probably take me a while to get back into doing physical activity.
So far...so good. I have a friend doing it with me, and it doesn't see too complicated.
Posted by Rayray on January 4, 2006, at 18:10:14
In reply to Re: anti-gay Socarides is dead » med_empowered, posted by Gabbix2 on January 2, 2006, at 19:49:11
I'm always curious about people who arrive at the idea that homosexuality is a choice. For me, it was a realization rather than a choice, an orientation rather than a preference. From pretty early on, too, even though I didn't have a label for it. I even experimented with women but felt fraudulent for doing so.
When I think of choice, I think of how I go about selecting a car or ordering an entree. I usually do quite a bit of research and some test drives before I choose a car. In the restaurant case I enjoy trying new things and don't reorder them if I don't like them. Tripe comes immediately to mind.
What I want to know from the pro-"choice" people is this: how do heterosexuals go about choosing their sexuality? What are the procedures used, the benchmarks, and the metrics? Are the results of their research repeatable and verifiable? How do they know they've made the right choice and when to stop testing?
Just curious!
Ray
This is the end of the thread.
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