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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 18 to 42 of 81. Go back in thread:
Posted by alexandra_k on December 29, 2005, at 21:12:08
In reply to Re: Astrology, posted by Phillipa on December 29, 2005, at 20:54:57
the position of the planets and stars at your time of birth is supposed to determine future events and things about your nature / personality.
so librans are this kind of person:
and the next one is this...but of course if it doesn't sound right then there are a variety of other influences and it all gets very complicated.
my question for astrology is:
how are the positions of the sun and moon and planets and stars relevant?
to either your nature
or events in your life
?
as a predictive tool it sucks...
and hence as an explanatory tool it doesn't fare any better.there are a variety of different 'stances' one can take.
Daniel Dennett "The Intentional Stance" talks about
the astrological stance
the intentional (folk-psychological stance)
the cognitive (design stance)
the physical (physiological stance)predictive (hence explanatory) leverage gets better the lower level the stance you adopt.
on the astrological stance...
it is thought that either the predictions are too general (hence too likely to be true beforehand) or are as likely to be true as false. and anomalies... are explained by the charts not having been done properly...
Posted by Angela2 on December 29, 2005, at 21:34:10
In reply to Re: Astrology » Angela2, posted by LegWarmers on December 29, 2005, at 20:40:19
I used to want to belileve in it but nothing has ever really happened where a horoscope would rpedict my future. ? There's probably some truth to it. But I don't think much.
Posted by LegWarmers on December 29, 2005, at 22:02:46
In reply to Re: Astrology, posted by Angela2 on December 29, 2005, at 21:34:10
I really really really want to believe that its true. I like reading my horoscope, and I was hoping that there was some scientific support lol it could still be true ;)
Posted by LegWarmers on December 29, 2005, at 22:07:39
In reply to Re: Astrology, posted by alexandra_k on December 29, 2005, at 21:12:08
> the position of the planets and stars at your time of birth is supposed to determine future events and things about your nature / personality.
>That must have something to do with the fact that when there is a full moon weird things happpen to people :)
> so librans are this kind of person:
> and the next one is this...
>It reminds me of those personality tests
Posted by spriggy on December 29, 2005, at 22:53:40
In reply to Re: Astrology » alexandra_k, posted by LegWarmers on December 29, 2005, at 22:07:39
Posted by Deneb on December 30, 2005, at 0:44:57
In reply to Re: Astrology » alexandra_k, posted by LegWarmers on December 29, 2005, at 22:07:39
> That must have something to do with the fact that when there is a full moon weird things happpen to people :)
I think it's more like some people act weird when they see a full moon. :-)
Deneb
Posted by LegWarmers on December 30, 2005, at 15:23:28
In reply to Re: Astrology, posted by Deneb on December 30, 2005, at 0:44:57
> > That must have something to do with the fact that when there is a full moon weird things happpen to people :)
>
> I think it's more like some people act weird when they see a full moon. :-)
>But this is true. I know that for a fact people become strange when there is a full moon, we find out after that it is a full moon and say "ahh, It was all because it was a full moon!" ;)
me, gullible? nah
Posted by crazy teresa on December 30, 2005, at 19:02:02
In reply to Re: Astrology, posted by LegWarmers on December 30, 2005, at 15:23:28
I can tell when there's a full moon without looking outside or at a calendar. My kids don't sleep well, niether do I. I get extremely agitated.
Posted by caraher on December 30, 2005, at 21:24:10
In reply to Re: Astrology » LegWarmers, posted by crazy teresa on December 30, 2005, at 19:02:02
Just because somebody goes through a lot of calculations doesn't mean what they're doing is remotely scientific. I'd wager that there is zero difference in the validity of astrology performed by an "expert" and an amateur. The only talent the former may have that the latter lacks is a silver tongue...
So you find it uncanny how well an astrologer seems to describe you? This is not so surprising at all; see, for instance,
http://skepdic.com/coldread.html
Try this challenge: ask an astrologer to *tell you* your sign based on your answers to whatever set of questions about your personality they consider relevant. It's easy to make up something to which people respond, "Hey, that's me!" but there's only a 1 in 12 chance of going from a personality description to a particular "sign."
My position on astrology is pretty well summarized here: http://skepdic.com/astrolgy.html
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 30, 2005, at 23:53:16
In reply to Re: Astrology, posted by Angela2 on December 29, 2005, at 18:50:32
> I don't think I believe in astrology. But I haven't studied it and I don't know a whole lot about it. But the idea of reading your horoscope to me is like reading a fortune cookie. It's bs.
I'm gonna tell you a little story. I was a scientist geek, going through a rough time. Depression, pain, money problems. Housing insecurity. A friend of mine who I trusted in matters spiritual recommended that I see a woman, named Margaret, who did Reiki (a non-touch energy balancing therapy). Offered to pay for my visit, so I said, all righty then.
Margaret was a learned woman. Clearly done some university. Confident, but shy. Said the first thing she always did was to run a quick horoscope. Asked me details about my birth, and a couple more questions which I forget now. In a few minutes, her demeanour was one of "oh dear". She mentioned some key transitions I'd been through (remember, she's just looking at stars and planets and stuff), and quite accurately described stuff over the last few years. Stuff like major financial drubbing eighteen months back. Surgery eight months back. Current state. Accurate in every element she touched on. She could have been tipped off, but that's a lot of effort to make for this, I thought. And some of what she said, not anyone else knew. Hmmmm.
We went to the table, and she perfermed Reiki on me. She correctly described certain physical disorders, their severities, and offered up ways to be more comfortable, all just simple statements accompanying her treatment. The treatment was surprising, in that I could feel her touch, though she wasn't touching me. She found my weak spots and made them less weak. It was the most relaxing thing I'd ever had, in my entire life. I left there feeling drugged, almost, and went home, and slept for three hours, mid-day. An occurrence that never happened. I don't nap, but I slept like a rock. And I woke up with my bum knee pain free.
That night, my phone rang. Margaret had done a full chart (usually costing something about $100) using all those arcane tables of conjuctions and disjunctions and all that. She'd called because she wanted to warn me. My earlier simpler chart had made her worry about me, and she did the larger work gratis, out of her spirit of helpfulness. She predicted that I might think I was presently at a bad point, but that things were going to get worse. Much worse. And she proceeded to lay out the next eighteen months or so, in terms of financial, health, home, love, relationships. I do forget just all that she said, the details. But I won't ever forget that she was right. All day, everything she said, was specific, detailed, and right. And all her predictions, too. She wrote them out. Mailed them to me. All correct.
I'm a scientist geek. I don't pretend that astrology or Reiki are strictly-speaking, scientific endeavours. However, there are some experiences, some data sets, some observations, that are not amenable to scientific explanation. I am attuned to semantic issues, and I'm conscious of ambiguity of speech, and simple statements masquerading as the profound. I did not find these problems in Margareit's presentations to me. She just did the unexplainable. Knew the unknowable. And shyly smiled about it.
I wish I knew where to find her. I would seek further Reiki for my pain. How could it hurt? But, how might it help, instead?
Lar
P.S. Ghosts exist, too. Data points not in accord with accepted knowledge.
Posted by Deneb on December 31, 2005, at 1:05:16
In reply to Re: Astrology » Angela2, posted by Larry Hoover on December 30, 2005, at 23:53:16
> We went to the table, and she perfermed Reiki on me... The treatment was surprising, in that I could feel her touch, though she wasn't touching me... It was the most relaxing thing I'd ever had, in my entire life.
I've heard that there is no direct touch but that the movement of their hands over your body moves the hairs on your body very slightly and that is what people feel.
Don't mind me, I'm a real skeptic. Maybe if I believed, stuff like that would work for me too.
Deneb
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 31, 2005, at 9:05:50
In reply to Re: Astrology » Larry Hoover, posted by Deneb on December 31, 2005, at 1:05:16
> > We went to the table, and she perfermed Reiki on me... The treatment was surprising, in that I could feel her touch, though she wasn't touching me... It was the most relaxing thing I'd ever had, in my entire life.
>
> I've heard that there is no direct touch but that the movement of their hands over your body moves the hairs on your body very slightly and that is what people feel.
>
> Don't mind me, I'm a real skeptic. Maybe if I believed, stuff like that would work for me too.
>
> DenebIt's not a "hair" feeling. Not even close. And I was clothed. And her hands were sometimes stationary, but the feeling wasn't. And the overpowering need for sleep? How did she impart that?
What I brought in there wasn't belief. I had no data to believe or disbelieve. I suspended disbelief.
Lar
Posted by BananaTonyDanza on December 31, 2005, at 15:30:33
In reply to Re: Astrology » Angela2, posted by Larry Hoover on December 30, 2005, at 23:53:16
Cool story Larry :-)
Posted by BananaTonyDanza on December 31, 2005, at 15:30:56
In reply to Re: Astrology, posted by BananaTonyDanza on December 31, 2005, at 15:30:33
btw this is Angela2.
Posted by ClearSkies on December 31, 2005, at 15:50:12
In reply to Re: Astrology » BananaTonyDanza, posted by BananaTonyDanza on December 31, 2005, at 15:30:56
Oh wow I'm going to have to call you BTD for short - or just
Toneeeee
:-)
Posted by Phillipa on December 31, 2005, at 17:27:31
In reply to Re: Astrology » BananaTonyDanza, posted by BananaTonyDanza on December 31, 2005, at 15:30:56
How in the world did you ever pick that name? I'll never remember who you are. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by BananaTonyDanza on December 31, 2005, at 17:41:40
In reply to Re: Astrology » BananaTonyDanza, posted by Phillipa on December 31, 2005, at 17:27:31
hehe. I was joking around with someone about who's the boss.
Posted by alexandra_k on December 31, 2005, at 18:34:17
In reply to Re: Astrology » Angela2, posted by Larry Hoover on December 30, 2005, at 23:53:16
> going through a rough time. Depression, pain, money problems. Housing insecurity.
so you were vulnerable...
> In a few minutes, her demeanour was one of "oh dear".
so she noticed you weren't a bag of laughs...
> She mentioned some key transitions I'd been through (remember, she's just looking at stars and planets and stuff), and quite accurately described stuff over the last few years. Stuff like major financial drubbing eighteen months back. Surgery eight months back. Current state. Accurate in every element she touched on.
but of course she didn't *just* have access to stars and planets... she had access to how you respond to what she says. lets have a go at a little conversation...
'hmm... i am sensing you have been through hard times'
<patients eyes light up a little in amazement>
'yes... hard times... i am sensing something to do with a person... maybe a family member... [watch closely for approval or disapproval]and in this manner...
using the feedback of the client...
one progresses from the general to the particular.
and some people...
(especially when they are vulnerable)
are more explicit with the feedback they provide than others.
me for example. i give a lot of feedback for that sort of thing. because i have trouble modulating my emotional responses and especially when it comes to my facial expression of them...> She found my weak spots and made them less weak. It was the most relaxing thing I'd ever had, in my entire life. I left there feeling drugged, almost, and went home, and slept for three hours, mid-day. An occurrence that never happened. I don't nap, but I slept like a rock. And I woke up with my bum knee pain free.
have you heard about administering placebos and telling people it is asprin / morphene?
placebo affect is very strong for True Believers...
> She predicted that I might think I was presently at a bad point, but that things were going to get worse. Much worse. And she proceeded to lay out the next eighteen months or so, in terms of financial, health, home, love, relationships. I do forget just all that she said, the details.Hmm. I've had similar style predictions courtesy of community mental health...
> But I won't ever forget that she was right. All day, everything she said, was specific, detailed, and right. And all her predictions, too. She wrote them out. Mailed them to me. All correct.
and in the spirit of 'self fulfilling prophecies' (which True Believers are prone to)... she was right.
sigh.
sorry. but i have less faith in her than in community mental health. how DARE anyone prophesy doom and gloom in my future. talk about negative forces at work... and there is scientific evidence regarding self-fulfilling predictions...
thats why i consider these kinds of things to be dangerous.
not because their is much to them...
but because the True Believers the faith the True Believers have in them... that is where the greatest harm can lie...
> P.S. Ghosts exist, too. Data points not in accord with accepted knowledge.
is that what a ghost is?
an anomaly?
are all 'data points not in accord with accepted knowledge' ghosts?what do you mean by 'ghost'?
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 31, 2005, at 20:28:42
In reply to Re: Astrology » Larry Hoover, posted by alexandra_k on December 31, 2005, at 18:34:17
> lets have a go at a little conversation...
>
> 'hmm... i am sensing you have been through hard times'
> <patients eyes light up a little in amazement>
> 'yes... hard times... i am sensing something to do with a person... maybe a family member... [watch closely for approval or disapproval]Fair enough, except it wasn't like that.
When I said, "I am attuned to semantic issues, and I'm conscious of ambiguity of speech, and simple statements masquerading as the profound.", I was meaning that I was not participating in that sort of dialogue. I do believe my capacity for critical thinking was sharper then than now. And I'd wager that I'm still able, in that regard.
> > And I woke up with my bum knee pain free.
>
> have you heard about administering placebos and telling people it is asprin / morphene?
> placebo affect is very strong for True Believers...True Believers in what, exactly? I'm a born skeptic, but I make a concerted effort not to prejudge anything. And I mean that. Anything.
And I don't care what explanation one might give for what occurred that day. I felt things in my body that I have neither felt before nor since. I had my eyes closed, so I can't see how I could have placeboed anything at all. All I knew was that she was near, from her voice. And yet, her nearness was felt within me. She didn't ever touch me. And yet, she did.
If anything, the simplest of "events" that might have happened that day was nothing at all. I.e., I lay there for 40 minutes. She gets $30. I leave. With nothing. Well, $30 less than nothing.
But that's not what I'm alleging occurred. If I expected anything, it was nothing. But, like I said, I try not to prejudge. I didn't get nothing, although I'm not sure what it was that I got.
> > She predicted that I might think I was presently at a bad point, but that things were going to get worse. Much worse. And she proceeded to lay out the next eighteen months or so, in terms of financial, health, home, love, relationships. I do forget just all that she said, the details.
>
> Hmm. I've had similar style predictions courtesy of community mental health...Based on what? Do they do charts?
> > But I won't ever forget that she was right. All day, everything she said, was specific, detailed, and right. And all her predictions, too. She wrote them out. Mailed them to me. All correct.
>
> and in the spirit of 'self fulfilling prophecies' (which True Believers are prone to)... she was right.
>
> sigh.Again, what's with this "True Believers" thing? It would be easier to falsify her predictions, I would think. And frankly, given the nature and specifics of her forecast, I would happily have had it so.
Just in case you might have the wrong idea, I didn't know astrology had the slightest thing to do with what she was up to that day. I was there for Reiki. I sure didn't go in there expecting one word about my "stars", my "chart", or whatever.
> sorry. but i have less faith in her than in community mental health. how DARE anyone prophesy doom and gloom in my future. talk about negative forces at work... and there is scientific evidence regarding self-fulfilling predictions...
>
> thats why i consider these kinds of things to be dangerous.
>
> not because their is much to them...
>
> but because the True Believers the faith the True Believers have in them... that is where the greatest harm can lie...Well, let me tell you how I processed her "prophecies". When things did get worse for me, I felt less affected by them, because I had been forewarned. And, for example, getting mugged the day before I was to start a new job (after three years of disability), is not something I would call a self-fulfilling prophecy. I would call it an unexpected worsening of my circumstances.
> > P.S. Ghosts exist, too. Data points not in accord with accepted knowledge.
>
> is that what a ghost is?
>
> an anomaly?That's one descriptive term that applies, yes.
> are all 'data points not in accord with accepted knowledge' ghosts?
Of course not.
You meant to trick me. <finger wagging>
> what do you mean by 'ghost'?
You know. Spirit thing. Haunted premises. "not in accord with accepted knowledge" spooky things.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 31, 2005, at 21:45:56
In reply to Re: Astrology » Larry Hoover, posted by alexandra_k on December 31, 2005, at 18:34:17
> > going through a rough time. Depression, pain, money problems. Housing insecurity.
>
> so you were vulnerable...I just realized.....it was the way I described these criteria that misled you with respect to the nature of Margaret's interaction with me.
In fact, it was what she said about those issues (based only, so far as I could tell, on my precise time, place, and date of birth) that so linked them in my mind.
I was sitting there, having a little chat, pre-Reiki, and she told me all those things about me, a perfect stranger. Based on my stars (or whaterever).
In all my years of existence, I've never just sat down with a perfect stranger, and had them start rambling off an accounting of my life. I was expecting small talk, to relax me, being a first-time customer. And instead, she starts telling me things that nobody could possibly know. How could she know my financial status, or my housing situation? (no, I wasn't dressed in dirty rags) Or the chronology of recent events? There was no preamble. No leading questions. Just details about me. The circumstances of *my* life. Not random, one-size-fits-all, let's-see-how-he-reacts-to-the-word-wife blurbs.
No one's ever done that, before or since. Or anything remotely close to it.
I don't even care *how* she did it. It was impressive.
Sorry for leading you to a false conclusion.
Lar
Posted by Gabbix2 on December 31, 2005, at 23:11:13
In reply to Re: Astrology » alexandra_k, posted by Larry Hoover on December 31, 2005, at 20:28:42
> > have you heard about administering placebos and telling people it is asprin / morphene?
> > placebo affect is very strong for True Believers...
>
> True Believers in what, exactly? I'm a born skeptic, but I make a concerted effort not to prejudge anything. And I mean that. Anything.
>Indeed you are a skeptic, and it's a a very apparent aspect of your personality I'd say.
I think it's odd that people discount this sort of thing out of hand.
I mean.. we're here were alive on a rock in space, isn't that weird enough? Does that really make any logical "sense"?
I find it hard to imagine just about anything else in this realm to be any more fantastical, or illogical than than the fact that we exist at all.>
>
Posted by crazy teresa on January 1, 2006, at 11:55:40
In reply to Re: Astrology » alexandra_k, posted by Larry Hoover on December 31, 2005, at 21:45:56
I believe you experienced what you experienced, but I'm not sure it was necessarily a good thing. How was it to have to look forward her predictions?
Posted by Larry Hoover on January 1, 2006, at 12:47:47
In reply to Hey Lar,, posted by crazy teresa on January 1, 2006, at 11:55:40
> I believe you experienced what you experienced, but I'm not sure it was necessarily a good thing. How was it to have to look forward her predictions?
They weren't all bad. There were many different predictions. She gave duration. She gave context. And the bad would come to an end. Eventually. Just not right away.
Her predictions didn't affect decisions I made. I was never literally conscious of them. They weren't like "don't get on a bus, April 3rd". More like "Your financial state and your health will get worse, and stay that way for about eighteen months. It will turn around, but you'll have a surprising setback, involving an intersection of health, wealth, and well-being."
Seventeen and a half months later, following surgery I didn't even yet know I needed (putting me on welfare, which didn't even cover my rent), I got back on my feet, got a job, and got mugged before I could even make it to work. The mugging gave me PTSD.
That seems like a pretty good concordance between the prediction and the outcome.
I don't have that piece of paper, the one with her words on it. It's in a box somewhere. All I remember right now is the gist of her words. So, please, nobody jump on me about what I'm trying to describe. My memory for stuff like that is not literal. I remember the meaning, not the language. The "quotation" above is my gist-based memory of what she said. Not literally what she said.
I was already shocked at what had happened in my life (before the day we met). She took the edge off further shocks, yet to come.
It's not like I had some dark cloud over me. In retrospect, her predictions turned out to be true. It may not seem logical, but I was comforted. Because I trusted her, I guess. Her, not the predictions.
She is the mystery, to me. Not the astrology. The Reiki. The astrology. They were just her tools.
Lar
Posted by alexandra_k on January 1, 2006, at 18:51:59
In reply to Re: Astrology » alexandra_k, posted by Larry Hoover on December 31, 2005, at 20:28:42
> Fair enough, except it wasn't like that.
Did she delivered her retro-dictions and predictions without any feedback from you (being able to see your face / tension in your body / have access to your tone of voice) whatsoever? Methinks she did not. the example i gave was very blatent. but the same process works much much more subtly.
i've been reading about hypnosis / hypnotism. that works the same...
> When I said, "I am attuned to semantic issues, and I'm conscious of ambiguity of speech, and simple statements masquerading as the profound.", I was meaning that I was not participating in that sort of dialogue.you... you don't want to believe that you were. you want to believe that your experience was veridical. you want to believe... that this woman had what? the power to see into your past and your future and tell you what was going to happen in your life? the power to... temporarily heal you.
and...
suprise suprise...
> I do believe my capacity for critical thinking was sharper then than now. And I'd wager that I'm still able, in that regard.
i know you are more than capable of thinking critically. but i also think... that what happens is that people want to believe. they want to believe. and in those times... their critical thinking skills are not optimal.
> And I don't care what explanation one might give for what occurred that day. I felt things in my body that I have neither felt before nor since. I had my eyes closed, so I can't see how I could have placeboed anything at all. All I knew was that she was near, from her voice. And yet, her nearness was felt within me. She didn't ever touch me. And yet, she did.you 'don't care what explanation one might give for what occurred that day'. thats not much of a 'critical thinking' attitude regarding the source / origin / cause of your experience. because of course i am not denying your experience. i am not denying what seems to be the case to you. what i am a LOT sceptical about is the following:
- that she knew things from your past at better than chance rates. or that if she knew things from your past at better than chance rates then that had to do with either the formulation of what she knew or with feedback that you gave her unconsciously.
- that she knew things about your future at better than chance rates. or that if she knew things about your future at better than chance rates then that had to do with either the formulation of what she predicted or with your unconscious seeking out / acceptance of that course for your future.
- that she was able to do more in alleviating your pain than a hypnotist or good placebo would have done if only you had as much faith in their suggestion as hers.
> > Hmm. I've had similar style predictions courtesy of community mental health...
> Based on what? Do they do charts?aye. i like to think of it as numerology
(stats)
;-)
(i am half joking)
> > > P.S. Ghosts exist, too. Data points not in accord with accepted knowledge.> > is that what a ghost is?
> > an anomaly?
> That's one descriptive term that applies, yes.there could be anomalies, there could be 'data points not in accord with accepted knowledge' but there could still be no such things as ghosts.
> You meant to trick me. <finger wagging>i'm not meaning to trick you.
if you assert that it is possible that ghosts exist...
well... i want to counter that there is no such things as ghosts.there aren't any unicorns, there isn't a tooth fairy, there is no such thing as phlogiston, or witches, or satan, or angels, or ectoplasmic spiritual stuff that needs to be written into the periodic table of elements before chemistry is complete...
your ontology is more complex than mine (because you are asserting the existence of some kind of... ectoplasmic spiritual stuff... and thus the burden of proof...
> > what do you mean by 'ghost'?
> You know. Spirit thing. Haunted premises. "not in accord with accepted knowledge" spooky things.so...
the periodic table of elements is incomplete because science has yet to acknowledge the 'spirit thing'?
Posted by alexandra_k on January 1, 2006, at 18:58:07
In reply to Re: Astrology » alexandra_k, posted by Larry Hoover on December 31, 2005, at 21:45:56
> I don't even care *how* she did it. It was impressive.see...
thats one thing i can't muster...
the 'i don't even care *how* she did it' thing.
i do care.
i care a great deal.
and...
i don't believe in ghosts or demons or spirits or souls or phlogiston or the tooth fairy etc etc etc
because...
IMO
acceptance of a 'super-natural' explanation...
acceptance that one doesn't even want an explanation...well...
that is not scientific.
it is not.
natural explanations for natural phenomena.
the trouble with natural explanation...
is that it can be demystifying...
and sometimes...
people believe they need mystery
they believe they need to believe in magicbut if you believe in good magic and that helps you...
do you believe in bad magic?
and does that make you feel afraid?
i don't believe in either.
i have nothing to fear.
i have a naturalistic explanation to gain.
of course we don't have everything explained yet.
science is far from complete.
but i'd rather work towards its completion (which may never arrive...) but i'd rather work towards it than...
accept a magical explanation.
which is of course akin to accepting defeat.
giving up on a naturalistic understanding of our world.
can you think of some experiments Larry?
some experiments to see whether she can tell the past / future / heal people?
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