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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 73 to 97 of 148. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 2, 2005, at 14:02:48
In reply to Re: please be civil-sorry Dr. Bob-I got snotty (nm), posted by sleepygirl on July 2, 2005, at 12:35:35
Posted by SLS on July 2, 2005, at 14:35:15
In reply to Re: discussion of denial of tools, posted by Nezirov on July 2, 2005, at 13:34:08
> Hi Guys,
>
> I could reply to all of these individual posts, but I'm not going to. It's obvious you've already firmly made up your minds about this and will not be dissuaded otherwise.Dissuaded from what?
As adults, we are quite capable of making our own decisions regarding treatment. How dare anyone presume that we are not.
I think it is important that the patient be made aware by their doctor the pros and cons and risk versus benefit of any treatment being considered. What you have brought us here is nothing new. As a group, we are fortunate enough to have the tools to educate ourselves. Unfortunately, this is not globally true.
It is also unfortunate that people with so little knowledge about psychiatry should so globally condemn it and the treatments it affords. This may or may not be applicable to you, but it sure seems to be true of Tom Cruise.
If you want to make a difference here, it is more productive to bring to discussion less global statements and those that are more specific to one detail at a time.
For instance, can an SSRI produce negative effects upon one's sexual function that last long after its discontinuation?
Psychiatry works as best it can, and, without the knowledge of some, acts as its own watchdog. Psychiatry is definitely one of the "softer" fields of medicine. This is entirely the fault of the complexity of the human brain. That the brain will one day be understood well enough to develop better treatments for illness is entirely the gift of this same organ.
- Scott
Posted by Nickengland on July 2, 2005, at 14:58:36
In reply to Re: discussion of denial of tools, posted by Nezirov on July 2, 2005, at 13:34:08
I knew you wouldn't be able to comment on alternatives as there are none. The anti psychiatry foundations set up around the world offer no alternatives either.
Thanks for replying though and good luck to you too.
Posted by gabbii on July 2, 2005, at 15:00:04
In reply to Re: medicating a sick society, posted by Nezirov on July 1, 2005, at 23:12:43
> Destructive power is growing exponentially, but altruism appears to be decreasing. Not good trends.
That seems to be a popular statement, I'm not sure what the basis for comparison is though.
Personally, I consider it to be a drastic improvement that I can't have a neighbour burned at the stake on a whim, legally own a black person as a slave, hobble a child in order that they cannot run away from their labors or bring a lunch to watch the Christians be fed to the lions. I don't have to worry about being forced to wear a chastity belt, my friend was not abused at a residential school like her mother was, (a punishment for being First Nations) and it really wouldn't go over well with the neighbors if I surrounded my house with people impaled on stakes so I could watch their suffering for entertainment. I don't fear the "mouth pear" or an "iron mask" or worse, for not being Christian, and though I suffer from depression and do not always agree with psychiatric treatments, I'm quite thankful I have not had to suffer having the "evil spirits" tortured out of me.
Anything else?
Posted by Nezirov on July 2, 2005, at 16:31:48
In reply to No Comment Nezirov on Expertise Alternatives, posted by Nickengland on July 2, 2005, at 14:58:36
Of course I can think of alterantives, it's just that I've realized that this is the wrong forum for such discussions.
Good luck.
Nezirov
> I knew you wouldn't be able to comment on alternatives as there are none. The anti psychiatry foundations set up around the world offer no alternatives either.
>
> Thanks for replying though and good luck to you too.
Posted by Nezirov on July 2, 2005, at 16:33:25
In reply to Re: discussion of denial of tools » Nezirov, posted by SLS on July 2, 2005, at 14:35:15
I'm itching to respond, but as I said in my previous message, I have realized that this is not the right forum for these kinds of dicussions. Good luck to you.
> > Hi Guys,
> >
> > I could reply to all of these individual posts, but I'm not going to. It's obvious you've already firmly made up your minds about this and will not be dissuaded otherwise.
>
> Dissuaded from what?
>
> As adults, we are quite capable of making our own decisions regarding treatment. How dare anyone presume that we are not.
>
> I think it is important that the patient be made aware by their doctor the pros and cons and risk versus benefit of any treatment being considered. What you have brought us here is nothing new. As a group, we are fortunate enough to have the tools to educate ourselves. Unfortunately, this is not globally true.
>
> It is also unfortunate that people with so little knowledge about psychiatry should so globally condemn it and the treatments it affords. This may or may not be applicable to you, but it sure seems to be true of Tom Cruise.
>
> If you want to make a difference here, it is more productive to bring to discussion less global statements and those that are more specific to one detail at a time.
>
> For instance, can an SSRI produce negative effects upon one's sexual function that last long after its discontinuation?
>
> Psychiatry works as best it can, and, without the knowledge of some, acts as its own watchdog. Psychiatry is definitely one of the "softer" fields of medicine. This is entirely the fault of the complexity of the human brain. That the brain will one day be understood well enough to develop better treatments for illness is entirely the gift of this same organ.
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by Nickengland on July 2, 2005, at 16:40:13
In reply to Re: No Comment Nezirov on Expertise Alternatives, posted by Nezirov on July 2, 2005, at 16:31:48
Support and Education forum...even an Alternative Forum for you to post..what more could you ask for... :-)
Take care lol
Posted by flmm on July 2, 2005, at 17:50:20
In reply to Re: No Comment Nezirov on Expertise Alternatives, posted by Nickengland on July 2, 2005, at 16:40:13
By the way, I just got back from seeing "War of the worlds". This is the worst Spielberg movie ever! I am not kidding, it is awful. Cruise etc. should be ashamed of the money they are stealing. This one is bad folks! Ireally wanted to like it. Not possible! Sorry Nez your boy stinx.
Posted by TomG on July 2, 2005, at 18:30:00
In reply to Re: Comment War of the worlds Sucks, posted by flmm on July 2, 2005, at 17:50:20
I've been doing some research on Scientology and found a reason why Tom might be so opposed to psychiatry in general.
"The story of Xenu is covered in OT III, part of Scientology's secret "Advanced Technology" doctrines taught only to advanced members. It is described in more detail in the accompanying confidential "Assists" lecture of 3 October 1968. Direct quotes in this section are from these sources. (See also Scientology beliefs and practices)
75 million years ago, Xenu was the ruler of a Galactic Confederacy which consisted of 26 stars and 76 planets including Earth, which was then known as Teegeeack. The planets were overpopulated, each having on average 178 billion people. The Galactic Confederacy's civilization was comparable to our own, with people "walking around in clothes which looked very remarkably like the clothes they wear this very minute" and using cars, trains and boats looking exactly the same as those "circa 1950, 1960" on Earth.
Xenu was about to be deposed from power, so he devised a plot to eliminate the excess population from his dominions. With the assistance of "renegades", he defeated the populace and the "Loyal Officers", a force for good that was opposed to Xenu. Then, with the assistance of psychiatrists, he summoned billions of people to paralyse them with injections of alcohol and glycol, under the pretense that they were being called for "income tax inspections." The kidnapped populace was loaded into space planes for transport to the site of extermination, the planet of Teegeeack (Earth). The space planes were exact copies of Douglas DC-8s, "except the DC-8 had fans, propellers on it and the space plane didn't." DC-8s have jet engines, not propellers, although Hubbard may have meant the turbine fans.When the space planes had reached Teegeeack, the paralysed people were unloaded and stacked around the bases of volcanoes across the planet. Hydrogen bombs were lowered into the volcanoes, and all were detonated simultaneously. Only a few people's physical bodies survived."
I also thought that this was 'interesting' about L. Ron Hubbard as he wrote 'OT 111'.
"In a letter of the time to his wife Mary Sue[11], Hubbard said that, in order to assist his research, he was drinking a great deal of rum and taking stimulants and depressants ("I'm drinking lots of rum and popping pinks and greys"). His assistant at the time, Virginia Downsborough, said that he "was existing almost totally on a diet of drugs."[12] Miller (p290) hypothesises that it was important for Hubbard to be found in a debilitated condition, so as to present OT III as "a research accomplishment of immense magnitude"."
Tom
Posted by Nezirov on July 2, 2005, at 18:48:04
In reply to Re: No Comment Nezirov on Expertise Alternatives, posted by Nickengland on July 2, 2005, at 16:40:13
That's not what I mean. It is obvious that most (all?) of you have embraced the pharmacological solution and that if I suggest alternatives, you will try to shoot them down. Besides, I'm not against the short-term use of certain drugs to get people "over the hump", but I am strongly opposed to the chronic use of these newer drugs that alter major neurotramsnitters for years at a time. If so many people had "chemical imbalances" as the drug companies would have us believe, the human species would have died out long ago.
You need to take a more holistic approach and treat the individual - look at their personal history and lifestyle and try to understand how that got to this point in their life. Not just say "you have a chemical imbalance, and should take this pill for the rest of your life".
Because I have been persoanlly effected by the inappropriate pushing of thsee drugs, I have submitted a scientific paper with case reports on the persistence of sexual side effects after using SSRIs to a medical journal. I believe I have an ethical obligation to do that, even though it could hurt my career. It amazes me that you can find internet postings about persistent secual side effects of SSRIs since way back ten years ago, when people first started using the internet. Yet, you will not find *one* case report in the medical literature. If there had been one, I would never have taken an SSRI in the first place. This to me speaks volumes about the moral integrity of psychiatrists and shows how little they listen to their patients. I've had people with persistent side effects of this nature tell me that they *begged* their shrinks to write up a case reprt or notify the FDA about this, but were flatly denied. There is not accountability and responsibilty. If and when my paper gets published (it may be blocked because of politics), I hope it prods the media to look at this issue in much more detail, and not just the sexual side effects.
I believe that there are other peristent effects of these drugs that last long after discontinuance, such as apathy and some cognitive deficits. I haven't experienced those myself, but I have heard from many people who have.
As I said previously, I am not opposed to the use of these medications for people who truly need them (and maybe I really needed a course of valium back in 2001), but the reuptake inhibitor drugs have been grossly over-marketed and pushed as a cure-all for everything from PMS to chronic pain. It's just wrong because people don't realize the heavy price they may pay in the long term for using these drugs. They effect too many systemes in the body and that's why there are so many side effects. By contrast, benzodiazepines work primarily on GABA metabolism in the amygdala - they are much more precise, but the drug companies have been pushing the SSRIs because they have patents on those, but not the benzos.
I can suse my own case as an example: When I initially got anxiety in 2001 (while working as a postdoc at a major medical university) the team of psychiatrists I saw (I agreed to be a subject in a training program for young shrinks) tried to push neurontin and paxil on me. I asked the psychiatrists why they thought these drugs were right for me, especially neurontin, which I'd never heard of and appeared to be an anti-epilepsy drug or something. Nobody could give me a proper answer. I asked again why I should try these newer drugs when something like a short course of valium would probably work just fine, but *not one* of then could give me an answer. None of them. So I took valium , and started to improve. But they kept hounding me about getting on an SSRI, even though I was improving. Wouldn't give up about it, and put so much pressure on me that I finally gave in and took the stuff. It was the wrost decision I've ever made in my life. In the future I will always trust my gut instincts and never go against them.
This is definitely my last post on this subject. Good luck to all.
Nezirov
Support and Education forum...even an Alternative Forum for you to post..what more could you ask for... :-)
>
> Take care lol
Posted by flmm on July 2, 2005, at 19:07:35
In reply to Re: No Comment Nezirov on Expertise Alternatives, posted by Nezirov on July 2, 2005, at 18:48:04
Hey Nez, every time I came off ssri meds my sex drive came raging back, more powerful than ever! If you are having problems still you have an entirely different problem! Is this why you are so bitter?
P.S. The human race suvived without meds before, but everyone was put in horrible mental wards to live in torture! Ya, I miss the good old days................
Posted by Nezirov on July 2, 2005, at 19:13:49
In reply to Re: NEZ you have other problems, posted by flmm on July 2, 2005, at 19:07:35
When did you escape?
> P.S. The human race suvived without meds before, but everyone was put in horrible mental wards to live in torture! Ya, I miss the good old days................
Posted by flmm on July 2, 2005, at 21:31:35
In reply to Re: NEZ you have other problems, posted by Nezirov on July 2, 2005, at 19:13:49
Your wit is only eclipsed by your charm!
Posted by flmm on July 2, 2005, at 21:33:20
In reply to Re: NEZ you have other problems, posted by flmm on July 2, 2005, at 19:07:35
P.S I may be crazy, but at least I am not impotent!
Posted by sleepygirl on July 2, 2005, at 21:43:18
In reply to Re: No Comment Nezirov on Expertise Alternatives, posted by Nezirov on July 2, 2005, at 18:48:04
Hi, you know you don't have to stop posting, people will read what you say, maybe disagree, but it doesn't mean your experience isn't valid. It's all good for consideration as we don't have the answers, but do the best we can to make decisions for ourselves.
By the way: I took Neurontin without the slightest idea of why, because it didn't do a darn thing and I took several pills a day.
Posted by Nezirov on July 2, 2005, at 21:47:08
In reply to Re: NEZ you have other problems, posted by flmm on July 2, 2005, at 21:33:20
You still here, stalker? Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not impotent at all. I have low libido, an important distinction.
You on the other hand, by your own admission, are crazy! LOL> P.S I may be crazy, but at least I am not impotent!
Posted by linkadge on July 2, 2005, at 21:49:20
In reply to Tom Cruise and Scientology, posted by SLS on June 30, 2005, at 20:25:01
Its really terrable. When you have a mental illness, your brain is not working properly in the first place. It is very easy for people in this position to buy into this kind of filth.
You were taking celexa for how many years ? Don't tell me that somebody was pointing a gun to your head day and night for two years.
You had a decision. You *could* have gone out and read up on them, and made an informed decision etc.
The problem is, that, like many of us who take the drugs, we notice that they do provide enough improvement that we continue to take them.
You feel a certain way. You came off the drugs, and you probably feel crappy. Its only natural lash out at the drug companies.
I came off them, I felt crappy, but it is foolish to make up a whole bunch of mental delusions directed towards the drug companies.
If there was anyone to blame, it was myself.
I mean heck, its not a conspiracy that the drugs cause impotence, I got that warning first thing on the shoppers drug mart print out.
I don't blame the drug companies. I blame God for my sour outlook.
Linkadge
Posted by flmm on July 2, 2005, at 21:52:14
In reply to Re: NEZ you have other problems, posted by Nezirov on July 2, 2005, at 21:47:08
Low Libido, are you joking!? Is that a disease, condition, what. Probably has a lot to do with your low self esteem.Maybe there is a pill for you that can fix that!Oops, I forgot, you are against pills, unless they help you! LOL........................................................
Posted by 10derHeart on July 2, 2005, at 21:53:45
In reply to Re: NEZ you have other problems, posted by flmm on July 2, 2005, at 21:33:20
...be civil. I'm not even involved, just reading, and I feel put down and offended!
This has been, and could still be, an interesting and informative discussion.
But not when it turns into name-calling and insults.
If Dr. Bob ends up choosing to block you or others, we all lose the opportunity to hear and consider your POV.
And that's very unfortunate, IMO.
So, please....some kindness and consideration for each other and the rest of us, too?
Posted by flmm on July 2, 2005, at 21:57:31
In reply to Com'on, please Nezirov and » flmm, posted by 10derHeart on July 2, 2005, at 21:53:45
I will not be abused by some impotent vitamin pusher, telling me how I should live my life. I got this far in my life without his help, I'll get to the end without it as well...............
Posted by sleepygirl on July 2, 2005, at 21:58:16
In reply to Com'on, please Nezirov and » flmm, posted by 10derHeart on July 2, 2005, at 21:53:45
we've gotten a little rude.
Thank you,
the formerly rude and reformed,
sleepygirl
Posted by Nezirov on July 2, 2005, at 21:59:25
In reply to Com'on, please Nezirov and » flmm, posted by 10derHeart on July 2, 2005, at 21:53:45
All I do is retaliate to his silly ad hominem attacks.
Anyway it's obvious that people like him and linkage don't read my posts properly anyway, and make assumptions.
As I said, I don't have impotence. Secondly, you can't find mention of persistent sexual side effects, such as low libido, anywhere in the scientific literature so how could I "read up on them" ? I don't have time for this childish nonsense. I'm outa here.
> ...be civil. I'm not even involved, just reading, and I feel put down and offended!
>
> This has been, and could still be, an interesting and informative discussion.
>
> But not when it turns into name-calling and insults.
>
> If Dr. Bob ends up choosing to block you or others, we all lose the opportunity to hear and consider your POV.
>
> And that's very unfortunate, IMO.
>
> So, please....some kindness and consideration for each other and the rest of us, too?
Posted by 10derHeart on July 2, 2005, at 21:59:33
In reply to yes please, I know we're passionate but...., posted by sleepygirl on July 2, 2005, at 21:58:16
Posted by Nezirov on July 2, 2005, at 22:02:11
In reply to Re: Com'on, please Nezirov and, posted by flmm on July 2, 2005, at 21:57:31
> I will not be abused by some impotent vitamin pusher, telling me how I should live my life. I got this far in my life without his help, I'll get to the end without it as well...............
Hahahah....They're coming to get get you!! They're coming to get you!! ROTFLMAO
Posted by flmm on July 2, 2005, at 22:04:29
In reply to Re: Com'on, please Nezirov and, posted by Nezirov on July 2, 2005, at 22:02:11
Hey Nez you impotent prick, you can't find liturature on persistent sexual side effects because they don't exist. What an imbicile! At least I can please my wife!
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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