![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 41 to 65 of 100. Go back in thread:
Posted by ed_uk on April 2, 2005, at 18:12:25
In reply to Re: Pfizer link offensive » ed_uk, posted by Larry Hoover on April 2, 2005, at 15:48:58
Hi Lar!
>I started a new thread to make clear just what it was that offended me, and Poof! it's gone. That is how things are managed, yonder. Not a word from the administrator. Just Poof!
I don't like the idea of things just disappearing, I think everyone should be able to read your opinion Lar. It's not as if you said anything offensive.
>I've never ever heard that phrase used in an empathetic or considerate way.
No, me neither. I think people use it to trivialise depressive illness.
>too many annoying little smiley thingies
LOL :-)
Kind regards,
Ed.
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on April 2, 2005, at 18:32:34
In reply to Humor » Larry Hoover, posted by Dinah on April 2, 2005, at 16:40:04
Emmy's been hurt by this too.
Posted by alexandra_k on April 2, 2005, at 18:40:19
In reply to Re: April first » alexandra_k, posted by Larry Hoover on April 2, 2005, at 17:18:58
> The whole thread just disappeared, and there is not the slightest evidence that it even existed.
:-(
At least I got the comment that 'this post has been edited [vanished] because it is hardly supportive. Please do not attempt to armchair diagnose people on these forums' or something like that... But that was a misunderstanding of what I was doing... And I tried to explain (to make things better for everyone) but apparantly that was inappropriate as well... And I tried to explain (via PM) and that was ignored as well...>Not a PM to explain the disappearance. Nothing. Just a vanishing act. Seems very much like what the Soviets did with their history books. Disappear the evidence. Ignore the living.
(((Lar)))
Posted by alexandra_k on April 2, 2005, at 18:44:23
In reply to Re: Humor, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on April 2, 2005, at 18:32:34
> Emmy's been hurt by this too.
Yes.
It was supposed to be funny.
It was well intentioned.(((Emmy)))
I think there are a lot of hurts between the boards. A lot of people are here because they have been hurt there, and a lot of people are there because they have been hurt here.
I do believe that different people are better suited to the different environments that are fostered by different rules.
It is the rare few posters who feel at home with both.
Maybe it is best not to mention one in a different place because of peoples hurts. I don't know...
But I am sorry that the joke backfired.
I am sorry you got hurt.
Posted by Dinah on April 2, 2005, at 18:57:02
In reply to Re: Humor, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on April 2, 2005, at 18:32:34
Did I say she hadn't been?
Oh Gabbi, I said that Emmy had the right to think it was funny, and that I understood that she thought it was funny.
I know how much PsychCentral and Dr. Grohol mean to her, just like she knows how much Babble and Dr. Bob mean to me. I imagine it was especially rough for Emmy because she brought over what she considered a light hearted post here to Babble and it turned into something she didn't intend.
I always hate it when something like that happens with my posts.
I hate it when my friends aren't in charity with each other. Especially friends who seem to enjoy bantering as much as Lar and Emmy do. But I've found that all I can do is give them both a hug and say that I know they're feeling rotten, and I'm sorry. They'll work it out in their own time and their own way.
What I'd like to do is to tell Lar to tell Emmy that he's not upset with her, just Dr. Grohol for deleting his post and dismissing his concerns without validating them. And to tell Emmy that Lar can be angry with Dr. Grohol and have it have nothing to do with her. And then have them start a feelings dialogues, with lots of "When you.... I felt...." and it all end happily ever after with a big group hug.
But that never works, gosh darn it. At least not when I do it.
And then I'd want to give my dear Gabbi a hug too. And get one back.
Posted by Dinah on April 2, 2005, at 19:00:31
In reply to Re: Humor » Gabbi-x-2, posted by Dinah on April 2, 2005, at 18:57:02
Posted by Dinah on April 2, 2005, at 19:02:55
In reply to Re: Humor » Gabbi-x-2, posted by Dinah on April 2, 2005, at 18:57:02
(((((Gabbi)))))
(((((Emmy)))))
(((((Lar)))))
(((((Alexandra)))))
It might be unrealistic to hope for a group hug. But I'll give out some individual ones.
And take whatever I can get.
Posted by Dinah on April 2, 2005, at 19:19:14
In reply to Well, I can do part of that - on my end anyway., posted by Dinah on April 2, 2005, at 19:02:55
Ok, I was laughing at myself a bit, but...
When I have several friends involved in a relationship, I reserve the right to be biased toward all of them. And to try to understand why everyone's doing what they're doing. Because when good people are involved, there usually are reasons.
So I hope all my friends remember that. If I offer a hand of sympathy to one, it doesn't mean I'm withholding it from another.
And I'm not being neutral either.
I am being biased in favor of every one of you. Because you're all good people, and I know that.
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on April 2, 2005, at 19:49:47
In reply to Sigh, posted by Dinah on April 2, 2005, at 19:19:14
Dinah, you are one of my favorite people ever!
And no, that post was NOT directed toward you, even remotely. But we can still hug (((Dinah)))
Posted by Bobby on April 2, 2005, at 19:52:41
In reply to Re: Humor » Gabbi-x-2, posted by Dinah on April 2, 2005, at 18:57:02
Posted by Dinah on April 2, 2005, at 19:54:41
In reply to Hi Gabbi and Dinah (nm), posted by Bobby on April 2, 2005, at 19:52:41
Hope your wife doesn't mind.
Posted by Dinah on April 2, 2005, at 19:55:23
In reply to Re: Sigh » Dinah, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on April 2, 2005, at 19:49:47
Posted by alexandra_k on April 2, 2005, at 21:18:52
In reply to Well, I can do part of that - on my end anyway., posted by Dinah on April 2, 2005, at 19:02:55
Wow. A hug for me???
I'll take what I can get too ;-)
I am fine.
And I'll give a few myself...(((((Gabbi)))))
(((((Emmy)))))(((((Lar)))))
(((((Dinah)))))Anyone else want one???
Posted by Jai Narayan on April 2, 2005, at 21:56:07
In reply to Re: April Fools day is a bummer for me....sigh » Jai Narayan, posted by Dinah on April 2, 2005, at 9:47:45
> I'm sorry, Jai. Loss is hard at any time. But to have it associated with a day that is brought forcefully to your consciousness each year must be especially difficult.
thanks Dinah, it seems like more holidays are kidnapped by traumatic incidents. My Dad dying on Valentines day...etc.
thanks for being kind to me.
I needed it.
Ja*
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 2, 2005, at 22:14:56
In reply to Well, I can do part of that - on my end anyway., posted by Dinah on April 2, 2005, at 19:02:55
> (((((Gabbi)))))
>
> (((((Emmy)))))
>
> (((((Lar)))))
>
> (((((Alexandra)))))
>
> It might be unrealistic to hope for a group hug. But I'll give out some individual ones.
>
> And take whatever I can get.{{{{{{{{Dinah}}}}}}}} (that's a bearhug, not the usual kind)
{{{{{{{{{{everybody}}}}}}}}}
Posted by Dinah on April 2, 2005, at 22:22:42
In reply to Re: Well, I can do part of that - on my end anyway. » Dinah, posted by Larry Hoover on April 2, 2005, at 22:14:56
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 3, 2005, at 10:31:52
In reply to Sigh, posted by Dinah on April 2, 2005, at 19:19:14
...if my passion was overwhelming.
I don't always understand what happens to me when I get immersed in a passion. I'm striving towards doing it in real time, and I'm pretty close to it....
It may seem less important to others than it does to me, but the mentally ill are surrounded by stigmas and stereotypes. Few, if any, of those are empathetic or complimentary. No, instead, they are used to exclude, to dismiss, to deride, to condescend, to trivialize, to marginalize, the mentally ill.
Again, it may not seem like much, but "Happy Pills" is a very dismissive stigma, in my mind. The very idea mocks the daily struggle I face, to even manage the most basic of human functions. As if. I reject this stigma. It does not apply to me. To accept it, to tolerate it, internalizes it. Instead, I disown it. I point it out. I shine a light on it. I am not a "happy pill" user. Do not use that phrase around me. Do not use that phrase around any of the mentally ill.
My problem was exacerbated by the fact a health professional propogated this stigma. I've already explained how his April Fool's presentation could have gone ahead, without employing the particular stigmatizing words.
But, and here is where my personal history enters into it, I am extremely triggered by anyone who would: a) try to debate my feelings; or b) turn away from me without validating me, at some level.
My feelings are not the subject of debate, by anyone. Even me. They are a true statement, by definition. I will not "lighten up." I will not be compared to others. I will not be labelled.
I also reject any attitude of others that suggests "Larry's emotions will not be accomodated or acknowledged....they are inconvenient for me". Tough. That's my reaction. Tough.
If I'm not done, I'm not done. If I brought something real to you, give me a bone.
Doc John cut off replies. I can't even imagine why that administrative function is even empowered. Look what sort of message it sends.
I started a new thread, and Doc John Poofed! the whole thing, without acknowledging so much as a single word I expressed to him.
I'm sorry that spilled over here, as it was a "there" thing. But I had no other forum to express myself, due to what he/they chose to do. There was a thread here, on topic, so that's where it went.
I'm seriously upset about the administrative functions over there. It's almost like Soviet communism. Shut down the voices of dissent. Eliminate all evidence of their existence. I'm surprised I wasn't banished to the Gulag. I did what others suggested, and I PM'd Doc John. He did not address a single point I raised with him. All he did was repeat the same message he'd given when he closed off debate the first time. Most people finding something funny does not address the issue of stigmatization. This is not a majority vote situation.
What started as a simple debate or expression about the issue of internalizing or propogating stigmatizing imagery became something else entirely. Hear me. Disagree with me. Decide the ideas have no merit. Whatever. But *hear* me. Give me a sign that you did, and I'm okay. That's all that I ask, but that's not what I got.
Anyway, I had a roast chicken to get on the table, kids to feed.....I couldn't really get through it all yesterday. I wasn't finished, but I think this message wraps it up for me.
Thanks for listening.
Lar
Posted by Dinah on April 3, 2005, at 10:53:04
In reply to Re: I'm sorry... » Dinah, posted by Larry Hoover on April 3, 2005, at 10:31:52
There is not a soul on earth that understands that more than I do. Maybe as much, but not more. I too get caught up in passions that mean a heck of a lot to me, but may not be important to others. I know it probably happens on board here, where I get caught in an argument with Dr. Bob over something others might not find as important as I do. And it might cause distress to others as I argue with Dr. Bob over it. But ideas mean a whole lot to me, as I guess they do to you too. And I'm not sure there is an objective standard to what is important and what isn't. Theoretically we could look at the world in general and say that nothing whatsoever that happens on these boards is important. But these boards are a second home to some of us, and what happens at home is always important.
And I certainly agree with you about feelings. Acknowledgement and validation are quite a balm to a wounded soul, even if agreement isn't reached ultimately.
Lar, I care about you very much, and I'm sorry you were hurt. I appreciate your passion for ideas very much (and share it).
And Emmy, I care about you very much too, and I'm sorry you were hurt. I love your fierce loyalty and respect your dislike of conflict.
(And Lar, I really have to add that that was a brilliant statement of feelings. Have you considered volunteering with conflict resolution classes at school?)
Posted by henrietta on April 3, 2005, at 11:35:10
In reply to Re: I'm sorry... » Dinah, posted by Larry Hoover on April 3, 2005, at 10:31:52
"Do not use that phrase around any of the mentally ill."
I am "mentally ill", and I'll make my own decisions about what may or may not be said around me.
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 3, 2005, at 12:02:55
In reply to Re: I'm sorry... » Larry Hoover, posted by henrietta on April 3, 2005, at 11:35:10
> "Do not use that phrase around any of the mentally ill."
>
> I am "mentally ill", and I'll make my own decisions about what may or may not be said around me.I'm sorry you picked that one sentence to focus upon. Were I to be in earshot, I'd likely raise it as an issue, notwithstanding your beliefs and attributions.
The extent of my passion in this regard ought not to be argued to distract from the foundation upon which it rests.
Lar
Posted by Dinah on April 3, 2005, at 12:07:59
In reply to Re: I'm sorry... » Dinah, posted by Larry Hoover on April 3, 2005, at 10:31:52
Of course, I suppose that those of us who feel passionately about things have to prepare ourselves for some fallout from it, because others feel passionately too. And if we stick our necks out, they're more vulnerable. That's just simple physics.
(comaradely smile)
Posted by henrietta on April 3, 2005, at 12:23:43
In reply to Re: I'm sorry... » henrietta, posted by Larry Hoover on April 3, 2005, at 12:02:55
I feel quite passionately that this is not a distraction, but is indeed the very foundation.
Thanks for not invalidating my choice of focus.
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 3, 2005, at 12:45:27
In reply to Re: I'm sorry... » Larry Hoover, posted by henrietta on April 3, 2005, at 12:23:43
> I feel quite passionately that this is not a distraction, but is indeed the very foundation.
> Thanks for not invalidating my choice of focus.All right. I accept that I am not to speak for you about stigmatization. I regret that you may hear my voice, nonetheless.
Lar
Posted by used2b on April 3, 2005, at 13:38:02
In reply to Re: Pfizer link offensive » Larry Hoover, posted by ed_uk on April 2, 2005, at 18:12:25
Happy Pills is the trademarked product name of a nutritional supplement offered by a German firm.
http://www.worldclassnutrition.com/happypills.html
Regardless some people being offended by colloquial understandings of neuropharmacology, serontonin enhancing drugs are largely offered as a remedy for anhedonia, which is a primary symptom of depression. It is the one and only symptom for which friends encourage me to apply for a prescription. I say "I'm unhappy and I have been for a long time," they say "your depressed, take a pill like i do."
I expect that a fair linguistic study would find the term used among groups with widely divergent views on pharmacological approaches, including anti-depressent-drug users, those who prescribe the drugs, the press and those who scorn anti-depressants. While some might not like the term, it is not an "n" word used primarily to disparage a particular group.
Anhedonia is an inability to find pleasure in things that are expected to cause pleasure. A drug that treats the condition can be considered a hedonic remedy. Hedonic refers to hedonism and hedonism is the doctrine that happiness is the chief good in life.
Maybe the pills don't make directly make a person happy, they just facilitate the pursuit of pleasure from secondary sources. But for those of us who feel anhedonia is a proper response to an cold, unrewarding culture, "happy pills" is a perfectly apt description of a drug offered to control our minds and to silence our disquieting persistent protests. For those of us who don't consider happiness to be particularly relevant, much less the chief good in life, those who push pills based on the notion that hedonic status is a measure of mental health are a threat to our creed and to our political liberty to react as we choose in response to circumstances we find unacceptable.
As far as Grohol using the term in a parody, then silencing discussion, well maybe psych pros aren't as god-like as the profession represents itself and his unwelcome expression revealed a ch*nk in the armor of a profession that is not nearly as coherent as it claims to be.
For my part, I remain deeply offended by a medical establishment that suggests the only cause of long-term anhedonia is illness, and that the only causes of the illness to be considered are chemical conditions inside my brain, or my cognitive outlook. For me, anhedonia is a an appropriate response by a caring person in a cruel world. I encourage the anhedonic to maintain their blank expressions toward this hedonic culture until a critical mass chooses to treat the actual causes of social pain that lead so many to present anhedonic symptoms.
Those who don't care to consider social symptomology are more than welcome to take a pill, and to complain when the pill is classified in lay terms that are synonymous with those used to describe its neuropharmacological effect.
(Moreau JL, Jenck F, Martin JR, Mortas P, Haefely WE (1992).Antidepressant treatment prevents chronic unpredictable mildstress-induced anhedonia as assessed by ventral tegmentumself-stimulation behavior in rats. Eur Neuropsychopharmacol)
(Antidepressant reversal of interferon-alpha-induced anhedonia.Sammut S, Bethus I, Goodall G, Muscat R.
Department of Biomedical Sciences, Laboratory of Behavioural Neuroscience, University of Malta, Msida. )
Posted by used2b on April 3, 2005, at 14:13:13
In reply to Re: Pfizer link offensive » ed_uk, posted by Larry Hoover on April 2, 2005, at 15:48:58
>
> I PM'd Doc John, and he was dismissive, and refused to discuss my concerns.
>
>Larry,
We probably disagree on the propriety of classifying SSRI's as Happy Pills, or of a psych-doc using the classification as parody within a quasi-clinical setting where parody is not a standard feature.
However, I recognize that you have certain rights to be heard when reporting adverse reactions to events that occur in these quasi-clinical on-line forums.
I'm not prepared with a full brief on appropriate causes or courses of action, but if he does not acknowledge the merits of your concern, he is at least obligated to record your concern, to make his collection of recorded concerns available to his peers and to allow whatever institution facilitates his on-line clinical research complete access to all complaints he receives related to the project. This is especially true of docs who posture their work, with publications and organizational memberships, as leading the way into new approaches, as these forums tend to be.
If grousing here about the offense doesn't provide the relief you seek, I encourage you to explore his institutional chain of command and use the experience to at least be sure the complaint process meets the requirements associated with whatever funding he receives.
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Social | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.