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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 13 to 37 of 46. Go back in thread:
Posted by alexandra_k on February 9, 2005, at 22:51:08
In reply to Re: ps, posted by justyourlaugh on February 9, 2005, at 22:47:53
> i would never insult you..
> but what are you saying..?Where abouts in particular?
Posted by justyourlaugh on February 9, 2005, at 22:55:12
In reply to Re: ps » justyourlaugh, posted by alexandra_k on February 9, 2005, at 22:51:08
i just cant understand what you are trying to say?
drop the lingo..
say it...
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on February 9, 2005, at 22:58:09
In reply to Re: quick thought... » Gabbi-x-2, posted by alexandra_k on February 9, 2005, at 22:47:06
> Why?
> Because reality can be less appealing than fantasy?Why does there have to be dichotomy? Why the debate? Some things ripped apart by analysis dissappear entirely, and reality is subjective.
Posted by alexandra_k on February 9, 2005, at 23:00:11
In reply to Re: ps » justyourlaugh, posted by alexandra_k on February 9, 2005, at 22:51:08
ok so
this all began with a simple thought
that we should consider how others might likely respond to us
whether their responses are rational or irrational
that doesn't matter
they are responses nevertheless
and we should attempt to forsee them a little
and take that into accountsuppose that someone annoys you
should you tell them that?
what if it would really hurt them
even though you are not making a comment about them
(even though it is civil to say 'I feel annoyed)
we need to consider the consequences
if saying it is likely to improve the situation
then that is a consequence that needs to be taken into account
and likewise their hurt should be taken into account
no matter whether their hurt is rational or notit is rational
it is moral
to take irrationality into account
i liked that and wanted to share it
that is all.it is something that i have been reflecting on in terms of me
take what you want from it
if there is anything at all that you like
but if you don't understand
or don't like it or whatever
then that is fine too...the conversation digressed
i am not sure why you said you would never insult me
was the implication that you feel i have insulted you or gabbi
if so i apologise.
that was not my intentionif i had known that it would have resulted in your hurt
i would have refrained from saying it
whether or not your hurt is rational :-)
Posted by alexandra_k on February 9, 2005, at 23:02:34
In reply to Re: ps, posted by justyourlaugh on February 9, 2005, at 22:55:12
We are all posting at the same time...
Wrote that last bit before I read your last post.
Did that help???
I am trying to be clear but it is hard for me.
Posted by justyourlaugh on February 9, 2005, at 23:10:43
In reply to Re: ps » justyourlaugh, posted by alexandra_k on February 9, 2005, at 23:02:34
i was confused..am..
words..i found it very difficult to understand what your point was?
i was asking if you could "do i dare" rephrase that?
i will not give up expression ..for conformity..
i will not be someone else to be like everyone..
i have really stretched out my own thoughts..
but always remember...why would someone make wings if they didnt dream of flying?
Posted by alexandra_k on February 9, 2005, at 23:15:54
In reply to Re: quick thought... » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on February 9, 2005, at 22:58:09
> > Because reality can be less appealing than fantasy?
> Why does there have to be dichotomy?
The difference between reality and fantasy? Reality is actual (true), fantasy is counter-factual (false)
Sometimes we can spend many hours enjoying certain fantasies...
But that doesn't mean we really want to turn them into realities...>Why the debate?
I just like to argue
I find it helps me learn>Some things ripped apart by analysis dissappear entirely
Yes. Sometimes if we look at something hard enough, or in a certain way then distinctions can be seen to dissolve. The mind / matter distinction is a bit like that...
>and reality is subjective.
Not sure what you mean by that.
Some truths are relative.
If I say 'I am hungry' and you say 'I am hungry'
Then it can be false for you and true for me.
But if we say alexandra_k is hungry (at a single moment in time) then it would seem that either she is or she isn't and there is a fact of the matter that we either grasp or fail to grasp.
Reality isn't just beliefs
Because beliefs can be false.We could say reality is inter-subjective...
That reality is the sum total of everybodies experiences of the world.
Scientists make careful observations
and thats why they are authoratative...
Posted by alexandra_k on February 9, 2005, at 23:18:11
In reply to Re: ps » alexandra_k, posted by justyourlaugh on February 9, 2005, at 23:10:43
> i will not give up expression
I didn't say (or mean to imply) that you had to.
>..for conformity..
Oh no, god forbid :-)
> i will not be someone else to be like everyone..
No - please don't.
> why would someone make wings if they didnt dream of flying?
Yeah. Thats right.
(though you could always sell them on I suppose)
;-)
Posted by justyourlaugh on February 9, 2005, at 23:26:02
In reply to Re: ps » justyourlaugh, posted by alexandra_k on February 9, 2005, at 23:18:11
i am terrible at expressing my self...
"my realitly and moral judgement is not the same as others ,,but just as valid "
(i wrote a big long speech here about religious conflicks...backspace...)
point point point ..
my dream world makes me who i am ..
Posted by alexandra_k on February 9, 2005, at 23:35:54
In reply to Re: ps, posted by justyourlaugh on February 9, 2005, at 23:26:02
> i am terrible at expressing my self...
No you aren't - I can be obtuse.
> "my reality and moral judgement is not the same as others ,,but just as valid "Moral truths may well be relative. There don't seem to be any moral truths that have been held to (in the ideal) by all societies EXCEPT: torturing innocent children for fun is wrong.
Personally I think morality has a lot to do with acting / behaving in a way you believe to be correct. And considering whether you should or shouldn't believe that to be correct as best you can.
With respect to reality...
Your reality
Just is your experience in / of the world.
Your experience is your realityBut then there is intersubjective reality too.
Such as whether it is true or false that
(it really is the case that)
1) There is a computer in front of you
2) you are female
etc etc.
I am obtuse aren't I
(sigh)
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on February 9, 2005, at 23:50:33
In reply to Re: quick thought... » Gabbi-x-2, posted by alexandra_k on February 9, 2005, at 23:15:54
> > > Because reality can be less appealing than fantasy?
>
> > Why does there have to be dichotomy?
>
> The difference between reality and fantasy? Reality is actual (true), fantasy is counter-factual (false)No it isn't.
Reality is what can be communicated what can be percieved and what comprises thought, that's not the same as true and false. I think by definition, fantasy is considered to exist soley in the mind, but that same thing may not exist as fantasy to another.
It's almost comical to me that anyone who reads history cannot see that what was once haughtily dismissed as folklore or old wives tales has been found by empirical evidence to be true, and that's just what scientists can prove. There are many more spiritual and and fantastical concepts that science will still scoff at, however by looking at what they have mocked before who are we to say?
> Sometimes we can spend many hours enjoying certain fantasies...
> But that doesn't mean we really want to turn them into realities...
>
> >Why the debate?
>
> I just like to argue
> I find it helps me learn
>
> >Some things ripped apart by analysis dissappear entirely
>
> Yes. Sometimes if we look at something hard enough, or in a certain way then distinctions can be seen to dissolve. The mind / matter distinction is a bit like that...Of course, I was talking about the exceptions, the fantasies the metaphysical or magical realism
Some realities cannot be defined it doesn't make them not real.
> >and reality is subjective.
>
> Not sure what you mean by that.Exactly that, reality is often dependent on the observer.
> Some truths are relative.
> If I say 'I am hungry' and you say 'I am hungry'
> Then it can be false for you and true for me.
> But if we say alexandra_k is hungry (at a single moment in time) then it would seem that either she is or she isn't and there is a fact of the matter that we either grasp or fail to grasp.
> Reality isn't just beliefs
> Because beliefs can be false.Often you could not prove to the believer that the beliefs are false.That's the reality of the believer, and science being skewered by it's own rules.
> We could say reality is inter-subjective...
> That reality is the sum total of everybodies experiences of the world.
> Scientists make careful observations
> and thats why they are authoratative...That's just not the case. They make observations or experiment according to the scientific method which is it's own intelligence, somewhat like the police having an internal justice system. It is *one* extremely valuable realm of knowledge, the one society currently values above all others but hardly definitive, it doesn't exist in a vacuum and subject to corruption, prejudice and greed.
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on February 9, 2005, at 23:59:11
In reply to Re: ps » justyourlaugh, posted by alexandra_k on February 9, 2005, at 23:35:54
> With respect to reality...
> Your reality
> Just is your experience in / of the world.
> Your experience is your reality
>
> But then there is intersubjective reality too.
> Such as whether it is true or false that
> (it really is the case that)
> 1) There is a computer in front of you
> 2) you are female
> etc etc.I think you are confusing what is a fact (true or false) with with what is reality.
Posted by alexandra_k on February 10, 2005, at 4:04:05
In reply to Re: quick thought... » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on February 9, 2005, at 23:50:33
> Reality is what can be communicated what can be percieved and what comprises thought.
What can be said, seen, and thought about. But is reality (as in the real world) those things - or is it whatever has a tendancy to produce in us those things?
Reality -> Perception -> Thought -> Speech (communication) / Other behaviour
(though we can leave out the middlemen for reflexes / reactions...)>I think by definition, fantasy is considered to exist solely in the mind, but that same thing may not exist as fantasy to another.
Yes. But the same goes for *perceptions* and *thoughts* and *ideas*. They exist (in one sense) solely in the mind - in the sense that I may have different perceptions, thoughts, and ideas from you.
> It's almost comical to me that anyone who reads history cannot see that what was once haughtily dismissed as folklore or old wives tales has been found by empirical evidence to be true,Yes. Some of the claims were true. But others were false. Are you rating empirical evidence more hightly with respect to truth (by giving it the final word on truth)?
>There are many more spiritual and and fantastical concepts that science will still scoff at, however by looking at what they have mocked before who are we to say?
> Of course, I was talking about the exceptions, the fantasies the metaphysical or magical realism
> Some realities cannot be defined it doesn't make them not real.I am not sure what you mean...
There are 'levels' if you will of reality.
The following things are all real
But intuitively different neverthelesselectrons
tigers
nail files
the number seven
perceptions
thoughts
utterances
actions
> Exactly that, reality is often dependent on the observer.Sub-atomic reality, or atomic reality?
That is very Berkeley, you know.
'To be is to be perceived'.
If we close our eyes on the world... it really does disappear.> Often you could not prove to the believer that the beliefs are false.
Different kinds of beliefs require different kinds of evidence to cast doubt on them. There could be evidence that provides rational grounds to doubt.
>That's the reality of the believer, and science being skewered by it's own rules.
E.g.? That many different people should be able to observe the same phenomenon??
If the 'final science' (or a completed version of science) provides the verdict judging which of an indefinately long list of statements about reality is true - then that is the nature of reality.
Reality is *Inter-subjective*.
The mid point between being mind independent
And dependent.
A meeting point of both...Philosophers develop scientific methods. Once the methods are sufficiently worked out then people can practice from within those methods. (And disown themselves from the catch-all discipline of philosophy to establish a field with its own domain of investigation). Then the methods become subject to peer review. The scientific method is supposed to (as much as possible) provide us good reasons for accepting the legitimacy of experimental results.
>It is *one* extremely valuable realm of knowledge, the one society currently values above all others but hardly definitive, it doesn't exist in a vacuum and subject to corruption, prejudice and greed.
Hmm. Applied science is most corruptable (IMO) because there are practical gains to be made...
Posted by alexandra_k on February 10, 2005, at 4:07:23
In reply to Re: ps » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on February 9, 2005, at 23:59:11
> I think you are confusing what is a fact (true or false) with with what is reality.
Ah.
The only things that have the ability or power or privaledge or whatever of being true or false are thoughts and utterances.Some of our thoughts and utterances represent (or say that) the world is a certain way.
If the world is that way then the utterance / thoguht is true
If the world is not that way then the utterance / thought is false.
Not all language makes claims about reality
But some of it does...
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on February 10, 2005, at 8:54:27
In reply to Re: quick thought... » Gabbi-x-2, posted by alexandra_k on February 10, 2005, at 4:04:05
> > Reality is what can be communicated what can be percieved and what comprises thought.
>
> What can be said, seen, and thought about. But is reality (as in the real world) those things - or is it whatever has a tendancy to produce in us those things?
Thats simply the given definition of the word reality, I had no intention of getting near the ivory tower academe, it's one of my least favorite places.> > >I think by definition, fantasy is considered to exist solely in the mind, but that same thing may not exist as fantasy to another.
>
> Yes. But the same goes for *perceptions* and *thoughts* and *ideas*. They exist (in one sense) solely in the mind - in the sense that I may have different perceptions, thoughts, and ideas from you.
>
> > It's almost comical to me that anyone who reads history cannot see that what was once haughtily dismissed as folklore or old wives tales has been found by empirical evidence to be true,
>
> Yes. Some of the claims were true. But others were false. Are you rating empirical evidence more hightly with respect to truth (by giving it the final word on truth)?
> No I was using your values of science being authoritative.> >There are many more spiritual and and fantastical concepts that science will still scoff at, however by looking at what they have mocked before who are we to say?
>
> > Of course, I was talking about the exceptions, the fantasies the metaphysical or magical realism
> > Some realities cannot be defined it doesn't make them not real.
>
> I am not sure what you mean...Your reality, of scientific definition, doesn't necissarily acknowledge them, it doesn't mean that they are not real, except to you.
> There are 'levels' if you will of reality.
> The following things are all real
> But intuitively different nevertheless>
> electrons
> tigers
> nail files
> the number seven
> perceptions
> thoughts
> utterances
> actions
>
> > Exactly that, reality is often dependent on the observer.
>
> Sub-atomic reality, or atomic reality?
> That is very Berkeley, you know.
> 'To be is to be perceived'.
> If we close our eyes on the world... it really does disappear.
> Labelling your beliefs doesn't often doesn't show where you are but where you've stopped.
I have no desire at all to argue anyone's theory
The fact that we see things so differently proves to me that reality cannot be concretized.
And thats all I'm saying> > Often you could not prove to the believer that the beliefs are false.
>
> Different kinds of beliefs require different kinds of evidence to cast doubt on them. There could be evidence that provides rational grounds to doubt.
What it is according to you and your belief system which may be entirely different from mine.
>
> If the 'final science' (or a completed version of science) provides the verdict judging which of an indefinately long list of statements about reality is true - then that is the nature of reality.
>
> Reality is *Inter-subjective*.
> The mid point between being mind independent
> And dependent.
> A meeting point of both...
>> Philosophers develop scientific methods. Once the methods are sufficiently worked out then people can practice from within those methods.
Yes.
(And disown themselves from the catch-all discipline of philosophy to establish a field with its own domain of investigation). Then the methods become subject to peer review. The scientific method is supposed to (as much as possible) provide us good reasons for accepting the legitimacy of experimental results.Of course, I'm not denying science, or saying it's wrong that would be ridiculous, I'm saying it's not the only realm of knowledge, there are others which can expand on science not prove it wrong, which are part of the human experience, the mystical the fantastic which are real thought it's often denied.
Anyway, this is getting far to into the philisophical for me which is something as you know I just can't stomach.
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on February 10, 2005, at 9:07:28
In reply to Re: ps, posted by alexandra_k on February 10, 2005, at 4:07:23
> > I think you are confusing what is a fact (true or false) with with what is reality.
>
> Ah.
> The only things that have the ability or power or privaledge or whatever of being true or false are thoughts and utterances.
You had said in your previous post that reality was what is true, and fantasy was what is false, that's what I was disagreeing with here. In this post you are simply debating what you'd previously stated, not disagreeing with me.
Posted by Dinah on February 10, 2005, at 12:13:04
In reply to Re: quick thought... » Gabbi-x-2, posted by alexandra_k on February 9, 2005, at 23:15:54
> Scientists make careful observations
> and thats why they are authoratative...
>
>Have you followed the science of nutrition or baby care? My husband's got a joke about that...
Posted by sunny10 on February 10, 2005, at 12:33:32
In reply to Re: quick thought..., posted by Dinah on February 10, 2005, at 12:13:04
and who put all of these words we use in a dictionary and called them "correct usage/s"?
Posted by alexandra_k on February 10, 2005, at 13:40:42
In reply to Re: quick thought..., posted by sunny10 on February 10, 2005, at 12:33:32
Ha! (Good point)
Well, people have been trying to work out the nature of things such as these for centuries:
reality
truth
beliefs
propositions (utterances)
meaningsWhen we ask 'what is x's real nature' then we are sort of looking for a definition - but most often different peoples use the term in slightly different ways depending on which theory of the term they accept.
So in the process of questioning you can drag out what it is that someone means by the term.
Then you can look at whether the theory works or not.
I should say less of what I think and try to understand what you guys are saying more.
Sorry.
(I am learning - see?)
Posted by alexandra_k on February 10, 2005, at 13:41:34
In reply to Re: quick thought..., posted by Dinah on February 10, 2005, at 12:13:04
No, I haven't...
Lots of stuff calls itself a science...
Posted by alexandra_k on February 10, 2005, at 14:00:08
In reply to Re: quick thought... » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on February 10, 2005, at 8:54:27
You have given me lots to think about...
Thanks :-)
I'll reply later today.
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on February 10, 2005, at 15:09:59
In reply to Re: quick thought... » Gabbi-x-2, posted by alexandra_k on February 10, 2005, at 14:00:08
> You have given me lots to think about...
>
> Thanks :-)
>
> I'll reply later today.
Thank you too. To anyone who may be concerned, Alex and I are fond of each other, we just like a little joust on occasion : )Oh Gosh probably no one even cares , we've probably bored everyone to tears.
Posted by alexandra_k on February 10, 2005, at 20:32:46
In reply to Re: quick thought... » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on February 10, 2005, at 15:09:59
Science isn’t authoritative on everything. But it is authoritative on a limited domain. Some examples of things that fall outside the domain of science are consciousness, ethics, aesthetics, meaning, god. Science is silent on those things. Occasionally we have the illusion of progress – but the illusion only works because they redefine (operationalize) the terms in a way that is amenable to scientific investigation.
Eg. We define consciousness as activation of neurons x.
Neurons x were found to fire in certain people who were in a coma.
Our research showed that certain people in coma are conscious.But consciousness is more than just neurons x in the same way that intelligence is more than just ones mensa or binet score
Consciousness can’t be identified with any brain state (though there may be correlations). This is because conscious states are *essentially* subjective whereas brain states are *essentially* objective (or inter-subjective). They thus have different essential properties and cannot be the same thing. There can’t be a science of consciousness. Though there can be a science of the correlates of consciousness. Though there is always the problem of ‘how do we know others are conscious anyways’ – which casts doubt on the correlation.Science requires inter-subjectivity. What is crucial is that different observers can observe the same phenomena. That experimental results should be repeatable. You can’t have a science of something that is essentially subjective. That wouldn’t work. There are methods for studying subjectivity but they are philosophical methods and not scientific methods. There can never be a science of consciousness. (Unless you change the meaning of ‘science’ so there can be a ‘science’ of subjectivity – see, for example "The conscious mind". Or unless you change the meaning of ‘consciousness’ so that it is not essentially subjective – see, for example "Consciousness explained").
With respect to god there is no evidence that could support the claim that ‘god exists’. There is also no evidence that could refute the claim that ‘god exists’. It is also not a matter of reason (unless you try to show that the very concept is incoherent – which is not a scientific enterprise it is a philosophical one). It is typically thought that religious claims are a matter of faith. It is also often considered that religious utterances should not be interpreted as making claims about reality. There are other things we can use language to try and do…
But if we are interested in the inter-subjective world (aka reality) then science is the best we have got. The evidence for that is progress and applications such as computers, the atomic bomb, and rockets to the moon.
Science can tell is what is or was the case. But it cannot tell us what we *should* do. Ethics is also beyond the scope of science. You can have a science of describing the different ethical systems of different people. But you can’t tell people which ethical system they *should* adopt. You can point out the inconsistencies and incoherencies in systems or worry about just how much they really do differ at the end of the day - but that is an analytic (philosophical) matter.
So there are limits on science…
It is unlikely that consciousness, ethics and co will ever be able to be sciences.
But progress is being made…
The ‘social sciences’ are flourishing with their fairly recently developed methods…When we are talking about reality it can be helpful to consider…
Suppose everything that is conscious disappeared off the face of the universe. What would be left? Would there still be trees and buildings?
If a tree falls in the woods and there is nobody there to hear it – then does it make a sound?
Posted by alexandra_k on February 10, 2005, at 20:33:55
In reply to Re: quick thought..., posted by alexandra_k on February 10, 2005, at 20:32:46
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on February 10, 2005, at 20:54:28
In reply to Re: quick thought..., posted by alexandra_k on February 10, 2005, at 20:32:46
> Science isn’t authoritative on everything. But it is authoritative on a limited domain.
That's exactly what I was saying here:
They make observations or experiment according to the scientific method which is it's own intelligence, somewhat like the police having an internal justice system. It is *one* extremely valuable realm of knowledge.I won't ever believe, that science is authoritative though, at least not authoratative
according to the one dictionary meaning definitive. It's been proven wrong far too often for that. If authoritative is being used as
in meaning respected then I would agree.Some examples of things that fall outside the domain of science are consciousness, ethics, aesthetics, meaning, god. Science is silent on those things. Occasionally we have the illusion of progress – but the illusion only works because they redefine (operationalize) the terms in a way that is amenable to scientific investigation.
> That's what I was saying here:Some things cannot be defined (by science) that does not mean they are not real.
> Eg. We define consciousness as activation of neurons x.
> Neurons x were found to fire in certain people who were in a coma.
> Our research showed that certain people in coma are conscious.
>
> But consciousness is more than just neurons x in the same way that intelligence is more than just ones mensa or binet score
> Consciousness can’t be identified with any brain state (though there may be correlations). This is because conscious states are *essentially* subjective whereas brain states are *essentially* objective (or inter-subjective). They thus have different essential properties and cannot be the same thing. There can’t be a science of consciousness. Though there can be a science of the correlates of consciousness. Though there is always the problem of ‘how do we know others are conscious anyways’ – which casts doubt on the correlation.
>
> Science requires inter-subjectivity. What is crucial is that different observers can observe the same phenomena. That experimental results should be repeatable.That's what I was saying here:
They make observations or experiment according to the scientific method which is it's own intelligence.:
You can’t have a science of something that is essentially subjective. That wouldn’t work. There are methods for studying subjectivity but they are philosophical methods and not scientific methods. There can never be a science of consciousness. (Unless you change the meaning of ‘science’ so there can be a ‘science’ of subjectivity – see, for example "The conscious mind".Hence my statement that reality is subjective.
Reality is comprised of thought, consciousness produces thought, consciousness is relative therefore reality is subjective.
Or unless you change the meaning of ‘consciousness’ so that it is not essentially subjective – see, for example "Consciousness explained").
>
It is also often considered that religious utterances should not be interpreted as making claims about reality. There are other things we can use language to try and do…
>
> But if we are interested in the inter-subjective world (aka reality) then science is the best we have got. The evidence for that is progress and applications such as computers, the atomic bomb, and rockets to the moon.
>
> Science can tell is what is or was the case. But it cannot tell us what we *should* do. Ethics is also beyond the scope of science. You can have a science of describing the different ethical systems of different people. But you can’t tell people which ethical system they *should* adopt. You can point out the inconsistencies and incoherencies in systems or worry about just how much they really do differ at the end of the day - but that is an analytic (philosophical) matter.
>
> So there are limits on science…
> It is unlikely that consciousness, ethics and co will ever be able to be sciences.
> But progress is being made…
> The ‘social sciences’ are flourishing with their fairly recently developed methods…
>
> When we are talking about reality it can be helpful to consider…
>
> If a tree falls in the woods and there is nobody there to hear it – then does it make a sound?I've always thought that the latter was meant not to find an answer but to free your mind from rigid thinking.
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