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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 29 to 53 of 74. Go back in thread:
Posted by Gabbix2 on November 27, 2004, at 2:28:58
In reply to Whoops! AlexandraK, posted by Gabbix2 on November 26, 2004, at 22:00:21
Chickens are also force fed, your friend was correct
Posted by alexandra_k on November 27, 2004, at 2:40:29
In reply to Re: Whoops--again- AlexandraK, posted by Gabbix2 on November 27, 2004, at 2:28:58
Oh. Did you find a link? I looked for one but couldn't find one...
Can I come?
I'll bring desert?
Posted by alexandra_k on November 27, 2004, at 2:46:08
In reply to Veganism, posted by Poetess on November 27, 2004, at 1:44:10
I think we can only get free range eggs here. Though 'all squished into a large room and pecking each others feathers off' is probably more accurate though less apetising... My old flatmate used to keep a few chickens, though, and they were pretty well looked after and used to lay sometimes.
I did know that about cheese. Apparantly although there are synthetic rennets they are more expensive and so are used less. And yes, I have heard about gelatine...
> By the way, I just read something that said that 80% of U.S.D.A. chicken inspectors no longer eat chicken. Humm...cluck, cluck :)
Heh heh, yeah. Someone I know used to work stuffing chickens into plastic packs. He doesn't eat chicken any more, and several people who he showed his work to don't eat chicken anymore either.
Glad to meet another :-)
Posted by Cass on November 27, 2004, at 2:47:30
In reply to Re: Whoops--again- AlexandraK, posted by Gabbix2 on November 27, 2004, at 2:28:58
Fortunately, foie gras has been outlawed in California
Posted by alexandra_k on November 27, 2004, at 2:53:10
In reply to Re: foie gras, posted by Cass on November 27, 2004, at 2:47:30
They are like frankfurter (hotdog) sausages.
Apparantly that kind of sausage typically has a really low meat content and is mostly soy any rate. You can't even taste the difference IMHO
Posted by Cass on November 27, 2004, at 3:12:41
In reply to Veganism, posted by Poetess on November 27, 2004, at 1:44:10
Gabbix, I'd love to join you for an olive oiled baked potato sometime! I'd love it if you could join us Alexandra!
Poetess, I echo your sentiments about flax. I sometimes soak flax seeds and put them in smoothies, and sometimes I dehydrate a flax seed mixture to make crackers.
Walnuts, hemp seeds and dark leafy greens are also good sources of omega 3 fatty acids. There is also a green called purslane which is supposed to be rich in omega 3 fatty acid, but I've never seen it in stores.
Posted by AdaGrace on November 27, 2004, at 6:33:42
In reply to Re: I like meat » AdaGrace, posted by alexandra_k on November 26, 2004, at 18:54:22
You're not going to explain to me how hotdogs are made are you????
Posted by AdaGrace on November 27, 2004, at 6:59:12
In reply to Any vegans out there?, posted by alexandra_k on November 26, 2004, at 17:40:22
My husband is a farmer and raises chicken for egg production.
First of all. They are in pens the size appropriate for the number of chicken of each breed. We do not free range our chickens because out in the country here there are too many cyotes that would love to have them for dinner, not to mention the stray dogs we deal with too.
Second. We raise them for egg production and not for meat. Which means that we do not insert anything into them other than antibiotics if they get sick.
Third, and this one is important. I was unaware of the inserting stuff into poultry. My husband however says that there are "meat" chickens bred only for production of meat. Which means they get fatter quicker than other breeds. Cornish Cross is one of them. They are a fat squatty bird that grows very fast. He also told me that these chicken are raised in very small individual pens and are not allowed to move. Therefore they eat, poop, and then get fat from no exercise. I realize that his information is not essentially the truth for all meat production plants, but I believe it might be a tad bit true in some cases. I don't know what Tyson does. Neither does he, since he doesn't work there.
Fourth, and this one is the bad one, he raises chicken for egg production and then incubates the eggs and sells baby chicks. This means the more eggs produced, the more chicks to hatch and the more money to make (by the way, we don't make didley). This means that in order for the chickens to lay more eggs, they have to be fed a high protein diet of "egg laying feed". He also leaves the lights on in the chicken barn during the winter months longer than the daylight hours. This also helps produce more eggs. Now. Because of this, they get "worn" our before their time. A chicken that would normally live 5+ years and produce an egg every other day, becomes a egg a day producer that eventually doesn't lay squat after 2 years. It doesn't kill them, but imagine a woman past her prime at 25 living on the prairie in the 1800's. This is the part I find cruel. He doesn't beat the chickens, he doesn't pump them up with hormones, and they are allowed to roam in their "rooms", they just are turned into chicken "putas" and become old before their time.
My husband is a small farmer farming with family and not a corporate farmer who is only after the money. There are small farmers who raise animals for food for themselves and others who don't use hormones and such for added productivity. People who like this idea can try to find these farmers and get meat the way it is supposed to be w/out all the additives. There are even farmers who package and produce their own meat and dairy products for comercial consumption. They are governed by heath departments for safety, and the government doesn't like it because they are not in control, but it seems to be catching on in our area of the midwest anyway. However, it is expensive. For 4 KC strip steaks you might pay as much as 3 times what you would in the grocery store, but at least you know the meat is good for you. There is lower fat and colesterol from corn fed hormone free beef and chicken than what you can get in the grocery store and so it's better for you.
#5. However, there is no humane way to kill an animal. Killing is killing. IF you are against that then I don't blame you for not eating meat.
Something to think about, I am not against your ideas or points of view, in fact I agree with most of them. It's just that my lifestyle is different. My diet, when I eat healthy that is, consists of chicken, fish, deer, and sometimes beef.But, actually, my original post was not referring to beef, chicken, or any other animal meat.
It was reffering to something different. Hardy Har Har.
AdaGrace (riding the fence once again)
Posted by AdaGrace on November 27, 2004, at 7:19:37
In reply to Any vegans out there?, posted by alexandra_k on November 26, 2004, at 17:40:22
Also wanted to mention that when I say free range and that we don't do it, I mean free range as in 25 birds out in the open on a acre of land. Free range would not work for us becuase of the wild animals that would kill them. Our poultry is in pens, but they aren't laying on top of each other they can run around and yes, they do peck each other, it happens when they are molting. There is some medicine that they can be given to help with it, but it's something they do. Free range chickens would do it to I imagine. Have you ever seen chickens in a chicken barn? I used to gather eggs for hubby and would occassionally drop one. Chickens are cannibals. They eat their own eggs if given a chance, and would eat a dead chicken if given a chance. I was amazed the first time I dropped an egg and was almost flocked to death when the chickens scrambled over to eat it. Apparently they don't peck at a egg, but if one breaks they go after it like it's candy to a kid.
By the way, we do occassionally let a few guineas out to free range because they can fly into the trees and get away from predators. They are wonderful for getting rid of bugs and ticks in the yard. They are noisy, but fun to watch.
Okay, I hope you don't hate me now because I live on a farm and raise animals. We really are NOT a factory farm and it's not like what people imagine it to be always.
We have 8 baby calves we are raising now. They are getting bigger and ready to sell, but I want to talk hubby into keeping one so we can have some decent beef for a change. But he says we need the money and it costs a fortune to butcher a cow these days.
Ada, farm girl at heart, Grace
Posted by Gabbix2 on November 27, 2004, at 7:28:29
In reply to Re: Fattening Chickens and Egg Laying » alexandra_k, posted by AdaGrace on November 27, 2004, at 6:59:12
> #5. However, there is no humane way to kill an animal. Killing is killing. IF you are against that then I don't blame you for not eating meat.
Killing is *not* killing. Would it be for you?
Don't people take their pets to the veterinarian to be euthanized because it's a "humane" way to kill them?
Death may be death, but there are certainly different levels of cruelty involved in killing. Killing an animal quickly after it's been raised (or allowed to live) in a humane way is much different than a lifetime of misery only to be hung by the feet and bled, or suffocation (however long that takes) after being tossed on a conveyer belt and thrown into a garbage bag on top of hundreds of others (as is the case for unwanted male chicks on the factory farm.)
I won't get into the lives and deaths of other factory raised animals because it's too gruesome but I cannot put a painful, sloppy killing after a miserable life in the same category as a quick death, after a comfortable one and I can't fathom how anyone could.
Posted by AdaGrace on November 27, 2004, at 7:47:02
In reply to Re: Fattening Chickens *trigger* » AdaGrace, posted by Gabbix2 on November 27, 2004, at 7:28:29
Maybe you are right, but I do not want to get into a heated arguement here, I am not going to go down that road. All I know is how my husband had to kill his chickens when they got a disease, and it was not the way the state vet wanted to do it. I won't explain further. I disagree with many ways animals are treated, but I also know the other side of some of the instances and I just simply cannot get on the bandwagon here on either side.
Euthanasia is not something that I feel is economically feesable for some farmers. Yet, until everyone walks in everyone's shoes, there is always a different viewpoint.
I don't want to argue here. Just wanted to voice my own experience and the experience of small farmers who are governed by everything they do. They are told how much money they can make on their product, they are told what to do with the animal excrement, they are told what crop to plant where, and then when they do everything right, and have a good year of production, their product isn't worth diddly. Ohhhhhhhhhh please stop AdaGrace........please stop.......
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 27, 2004, at 8:43:05
In reply to Re: Whoops--again- AlexandraK, posted by Gabbix2 on November 27, 2004, at 2:28:58
> Chickens are also force fed, your friend was correct
I did a google search on that, and found no instance of even a claim of that, let alone evidence supporting the claim. Nor for turkeys, either. I suppose it could be done, though. Wild chickens, the jungle fowl of Asia, must be force-fed if captured from the wild, as they will not eat in captivity. But I don't think that's what's being talked about here.
Just being my usual geeky self.
Apparently, the whole force-feeding thing is thousands of years old. The reason was that the birds' fat was prized for cooking (called schmaltz). The liver was also prized as a delicacy (high in nutrients), and the fatter the goose/duck, the better the liver.
Of course, this whole thing has gotten out of hand when the whole purpose is to produce the fattest possible liver, but even the idea that stomachs routinely burst with "modern" force-feeding is not substantiated by necropsies done on dead ducks. Poor sanitation, combined with esophageal injuries which become infected are the primary causes of death, as is the fat liver itself. The fat liver, called steatosis, is a direct result of too much carb intake. The same thing happens to humans, sometimes. It is a serious illness, but the point here is to make the duck really sick, while keeping it alive long enough to "harvest" the liver.
I don't mean to support the practise. It is abhorrent. I just want to remain factual.
Lar
Posted by Poetess on November 27, 2004, at 11:57:08
In reply to Re: Whoops--again- AlexandraK » Gabbix2, posted by Larry Hoover on November 27, 2004, at 8:43:05
Do any of you know about Fruitrarians? The discussion about killing reminded me of them.
This, to me is not killing to eat taken to an interesting level. Fruitarians only eat fruits and nuts. The philosophy of many of them is to kill as little as possible for food, including plants (grains, etc). They say that eating fruit helps the plants. The ripe fruit would either rot and drop off the plant or burst anyway. Animals who eat the fruit and aid in spreading new trees by spitting out larger seeds, the animals thrive from eating them and then poop, which fertilzes the ground for the plants. I'm not sure how one can stay healthy eating like this and keep battling those who wish to exploit the environment. I find theirs and interesting perspective, however.
Many traditions believe that all life is life. That killing a plant and eating it and killing an animal and eating it are the same thing, since everything (including things like rocks in some cultures) has a soul and everything is connected. The idea of one life being more evolved or more important than another doesn't, so the ideas that you shouldn't kill an animal and eat it doesn't exist. That there is a natural balance in life and everything does what it's supposed to do. Except for humans, since we think too much and have lost connnection with the rest of nature :)
Another thing that I have been thinking about is what some Buddhists (and others) say about eating meat. Fear is the last thing that any animal feels before they die. When we eat their flesh, we are consuming their fear or adrenaline. The adrenaline or fear-energy is in the meat. We eat adrenaline-laced or fear-energy laced meat and absorb that energy. Even when animals are "tricked" into not knowing they are going to be slaughtered, I can't imagine that they are so stupid that they don't know something is up and would begin at least a minor freak-out/ major confusion.
Just some thoughts...have to stop now, my brain is spasming :)
Poetess
Posted by Gabbix2 on November 27, 2004, at 12:04:58
In reply to Re: Fattening Chickens *trigger* » Gabbix2, posted by AdaGrace on November 27, 2004, at 7:47:02
> Euthanasia is not something that I feel is economically feesable for some farmers. Yet, until everyone walks in everyone's shoes, there is always a different viewpoint.
I wasn't saying that I thought farmers should have to use euthanasia, but you had said there is *no* humane way to kill an animal, and
I was pointing out that I think there must be
or euthanasia would not be considered more humane than other methods of killing.
Posted by Gabbix2 on November 27, 2004, at 12:09:39
In reply to Re: Whoops--again- AlexandraK » Gabbix2, posted by Larry Hoover on November 27, 2004, at 8:43:05
www.peacockspoultryfarm.com/html/amish.htm
www.paws.org/kids/teens/factory_farming.html -
Posted by Gabbix2 on November 27, 2004, at 12:24:50
In reply to Re: Whoops--again- AlexandraK » Larry Hoover, posted by Gabbix2 on November 27, 2004, at 12:09:39
You can also call a poultry farm.. I did.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 27, 2004, at 13:46:09
In reply to Re: Whoops--again- AlexandraK » Larry Hoover, posted by Gabbix2 on November 27, 2004, at 12:09:39
> www.peacockspoultryfarm.com/html/amish.htm
>
>
> www.paws.org/kids/teens/factory_farming.html -There's nothing on either site to show that turkeys or chickens are force-fed.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 27, 2004, at 13:48:22
In reply to Re: Whoops--again-Larry Hoover, posted by Gabbix2 on November 27, 2004, at 12:24:50
> You can also call a poultry farm.. I did.
I've been to many poultry farms over the years...chickens, ducks, geese, turkeys, exotics. No force-feeding. It's just not necessary, unless you want the bird to get that fat liver thing happening.
Lar
Posted by Gabbix2 on November 27, 2004, at 14:28:46
In reply to Re: Whoops--again-Larry Hoover » Gabbix2, posted by Larry Hoover on November 27, 2004, at 13:48:22
This was taken directly from the Paws link I posted:
Chicken, Turkey and Duck
Like all birds, chickens are capable of feeling pain. The "broiler" chicken is raised for meat. Kept crowded into large sheds, chickens are fed to become as heavy as possible as quickly as possible. Because the broiler chicken is slaughtered between 6 and 8 weeks of age before its skeleton has fully developed, the forced growth leads to painful bone disorders, deformities, fractures, fissures and dislocated vertebrae. Although the Humane Slaughter Act requires that "food animals" be slaughtered humanely, all birds are excluded from this act and the most common ways of slaughtering them are extremely cruel. It's important to note that "free-range" birds are only free from cages. They are still tightly confined, suffer frequent injuries and are slaughtered inhumanely.Although the egg industry gives consumers the impression that its hens are living out their lives in a natural setting, the factory farm shows a very different picture. Battery cages are small wire cages, not much larger than a file drawer, in which hens are confined with up to 6 other birds for their entire laying lives. The practice of "forced molting" periodically starves the hens of food for up to 2 weeks as a means of increasing egg production. In order to minimize the damage done to each other as a result of the stress of overcrowding, the hen's beaks are sliced off with a hot blade. When their laying life is over, "spent hens" are also sent to slaughter, where their badly damaged bodies can not be packaged whole, so they are ground to make soups or pot pies.
Turkeys and ducks are also part of the factory farm system. *Turkeys are force fed to become so large that they are often painfully unable to stand*. Ducks used to produce foie gras or pate are tightly confined and continually force fed until their livers painfully expand to 10 times the natural size creating this "delicacy."
Posted by Gabbix2 on November 27, 2004, at 14:44:03
In reply to Re: Whoops--again-Larry Hoover » Gabbix2, posted by Larry Hoover on November 27, 2004, at 13:48:22
> > You can also call a poultry farm.. I did.
>
> I've been to many poultry farms over the years...chickens, ducks, geese, turkeys, exotics. No force-feeding. It's just not necessary, unless you want the bird to get that fat liver thing happening.
>
> Lar
I don't think too many factory broiler chicken
farms are places that you'd end up in, many don't even let people in, however according
to ... soilassociation.org.uk/web/sa: A link I accessed last night but cannot access today quote: *The study by CWF found that broiler chickens are force fed so they grow faster,
live in extremely cramped conditions and lack any exercise*According to my phone call to find out local
broiler chicken feeding methods 4/5 use force feeding.According to P.E.T.A magazine December 1995 (mine)
Farm rescued chickens had to be re-taught how to eat because they had become accustomed only to forced feeding.
Posted by Gabbix2 on November 27, 2004, at 14:51:14
In reply to --again-Larry Hoover, posted by Gabbix2 on November 27, 2004, at 14:44:03
I posted a link to the Amish site simply because it stated that their chicken tasted better because it wasn't force fed the implication (whether you consider it worthy or not, as it is advertising ) is that other chicken is force fed.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 27, 2004, at 15:13:54
In reply to --again-Larry Hoover, posted by Gabbix2 on November 27, 2004, at 14:44:03
> > > You can also call a poultry farm.. I did.
> >
> > I've been to many poultry farms over the years...chickens, ducks, geese, turkeys, exotics. No force-feeding. It's just not necessary, unless you want the bird to get that fat liver thing happening.
> >
> > Lar
>
>
> I don't think too many factory broiler chicken
> farms are places that you'd end up in, many don't even let people in, however according
> to ... soilassociation.org.uk/web/sa: A link I accessed last night but cannot access today quote: *The study by CWF found that broiler chickens are force fed so they grow faster,
> live in extremely cramped conditions and lack any exercise*
>
> According to my phone call to find out local
> broiler chicken feeding methods 4/5 use force feeding.
>
> According to P.E.T.A magazine December 1995 (mine)
> Farm rescued chickens had to be re-taught how to eat because they had become accustomed only to forced feeding.Broiler chicken farms hire chicken catchers. Seven to a crate (to be loaded on a truck). Been there, done that. I do know what equipment is present, as chickens are in different stages of growth in different areas of the same farms. The chickens (and turkeys, too) are not force-fed, no matter how many PETA articles suggest otherwise. They are fed ad libitum, from centralized feeders. The confined birds may have no clue that food comes from anything other than one of those mechanized troughs, so they may not have any idea how to peck and scratch outdoors, but that's quite a different issue.
Anyway, I've wasted enough energy on this.
Lar
Posted by MCK on November 27, 2004, at 17:18:09
In reply to Re: --again-Larry Hoover » Gabbix2, posted by Larry Hoover on November 27, 2004, at 15:13:54
As the daughter of a poultry farmer, (and now a vegetarian) I'm quite surprised that you could make such an assertion, unless you've worked on a poultry farm very recently for a good long time!
Sadly, force feeding is used, not always, (with Turkeys it is usually) but you bet it is! When those chickens and turkeys need to be fattened up in a hurry for market there is no other way. Stomach injuries ocurr but more common are tears to the neck and throat.
My father doesn't like to do this, and neither do most of the "farmers" he knows, but in order to keep the price down and make a living he feels he has no other choice, drastic changes have happened in farming even in the last few years.
Even chicken catching as you referred to is not the same in most places. The chickens are usually just grabbed by their feet straight out of a crate and don't need to be caught, they didn't have anywhere to go!
Some have been forced in one place so long their feet have grown over the wire at the bottom of the cage--they "can't" eat out of a trough.Groups like P.E.T.A don't haveto exaggerate the abuses that happen in farming unfortunately, I wish they did. I've learned that one can always assume the worst is true. I'm not criticizing all farmers, I believe they are victims too, and many times it's the hired workers who through carelessness or cruelty cause much needless suffering.
You mentioned no matter how many Peta articles say so it's not true that poultry is force fed.
Well maybe you won't believe this farmers daughter either, but it doesn't change the unfortunate facts.
I'm not speaking for all farms or all farmers. I'm speaking about poultry factory farms,
which may at one time resembled a friendly family farm, but do so no more.
Posted by MCK on November 28, 2004, at 0:00:44
In reply to Unfortunatley -Larry Hoover, posted by MCK on November 27, 2004, at 17:18:09
It's not rare for pate to contain the livers of gavage/tube force fed chickens, though the label may not always indicate it it's not a secret.
The rest of the chicken is used for market.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 28, 2004, at 10:45:21
In reply to Unfortunatley -Larry Hoover, posted by MCK on November 27, 2004, at 17:18:09
> As the daughter of a poultry farmer, (and now a vegetarian) I'm quite surprised that you could make such an assertion, unless you've worked on a poultry farm very recently for a good long time!
Broiler farming, where I come from, is a very automated process. Efficiencies are measured in tenths of a percent of feed conversion. The birds are not confined until being trasported, having been held in open sheds on deep litter. There is no opportunity for gavage. Poor converters of feed are culled, not force-fed. That's too labour intensive, with diminished return for an already poor converter of feed. I hate to make it look like an economics issue, but that's the nature of the game. The birds are only kept for 6-8 weeks, the shed is cleaned, and a new batch of chicks is brought in.
> Sadly, force feeding is used, not always, (with Turkeys it is usually) but you bet it is! When those chickens and turkeys need to be fattened up in a hurry for market there is no other way. Stomach injuries ocurr but more common are tears to the neck and throat.
I did not mean to imply that it never happened. I can only imagine what economic pressures might make such a labour-intensive process worthwhile when carcass weight/lipid content is the issue. Foie gras is a high-value product, but even those producers take cost-cutting measures to an extreme (the whole animal welfare argument, well-founded), to maintain profitability. I want to reiterate. I do not support the practise. It is abhorrent.
> My father doesn't like to do this, and neither do most of the "farmers" he knows, but in order to keep the price down and make a living he feels he has no other choice, drastic changes have happened in farming even in the last few years.
I cannot imagine the process is commonplace. That's where we are going to have to accept our differences. The age-old practise of gavage or force-feeding was developed to mimic a natural process in migratory waterfowl. Just before initiating the migratory flight, the birds would habitually gorge themselves, increasing the fat content of the breast (in particular), and the liver. This was a genetic adaptation which permitted extended flight periods. This adaptation is seen in ducks and geese, the same birds still used for foie gras production.
Chickens and turkeys and other domestic fowl are non-migratory. They are susceptible to fatty infiltration of the liver, as are all animals (including ourselves), but they do not have the same magnitude of response as do migratory waterfowl.
> Even chicken catching as you referred to is not the same in most places. The chickens are usually just grabbed by their feet straight out of a crate and don't need to be caught, they didn't have anywhere to go!
The birds I'm talking about are not confined in any respect (other than by the shed walls), except for transport to slaughter.
> Some have been forced in one place so long their feet have grown over the wire at the bottom of the cage--they "can't" eat out of a trough.
Are you talking about laying hens?
> Groups like P.E.T.A don't haveto exaggerate the abuses that happen in farming unfortunately, I wish they did. I've learned that one can always assume the worst is true.Oh dear. Some people are murderers. Because I'm a people, am I a murderer?
There are farmers who ought not to be farmers. The exceptional cases ought not to be used to taint the reputations of the remainder.
I'm on a first name basis with my butcher. I've been on the kill floor. I know what he does for me, and I eat the meat he processes, in full knowledge of what he has contracted to do on my behalf. I have no illusions about what I am consuming.
> I'm not criticizing all farmers, I believe they are victims too,
I think you are doing so.
> and many times it's the hired workers who through carelessness or cruelty cause much needless suffering.
I don't recommend chicken catching as a career move. Have you ever tried holding seven chickens at one time, and trying to get them into a plastic crate without any getting away? You can only manage it by not exciting the birds, strange as that may seem. That's how we do it hereabouts, based on my personal knowledge.
> You mentioned no matter how many Peta articles say so it's not true that poultry is force fed.
Our divergence in belief is an issue of frequency, not of absolute existence of the practise. I believe it is far less common than it is alleged to be.
> Well maybe you won't believe this farmers daughter either, but it doesn't change the unfortunate facts.
I believe you.
> I'm not speaking for all farms or all farmers. I'm speaking about poultry factory farms,
> which may at one time resembled a friendly family farm, but do so no more.The factory farms I've been to don't resemble what you describe, in any respect.
Lar
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