![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Angel Girl on June 15, 2004, at 4:35:47
I saw this line in a post a read yesterday. Sorry I can't remember who said it and I hope it's ok to repeat it here.
<quote>
"Depression is not a rational disease. Your mind is not working properly"
<end quote>
I totally agree with those statements. However, if we can not think properly, can we still be held accountable for what we do?
AG
Posted by ghost on June 15, 2004, at 9:17:24
In reply to Accountability, posted by Angel Girl on June 15, 2004, at 4:35:47
Posted by octopusprime on June 15, 2004, at 10:03:06
In reply to Accountability, posted by Angel Girl on June 15, 2004, at 4:35:47
> I totally agree with those statements. However, if we can not think properly, can we still be held accountable for what we do?
disclaimer: i am not a lawyer, nothing i say constitutes legal advice, everything i say will be held against you ...
that said, most people that are depressed are still accountable for their actions.
one must be found be a court of law to be "insane" before one is no longer accountable for her actions.
from nolo.com(*):
"Various definitions of insanity are in use because neither the legal system nor psychiatrists can agree on a single meaning of insanity in the criminal law context. The most popular definition is the "McNaghten rule," which defines insanity as "the inability to distinguish right from wrong." Another common test is known as "irresistible impulse": a person may know that an act is wrong, but because of mental illness he cannot control his actions (he's described as acting out of an "irresistible impulse")."it seems to me that the "irrationality" of depression is most frequently negative distorted thinking, not a fundamental alteration of the understanding of right and wrong. there are cases of depressed people that would be insane by most tests; however i think these people are the minority.
Posted by Catgirl on June 15, 2004, at 19:05:52
In reply to Accountability, posted by Angel Girl on June 15, 2004, at 4:35:47
> I saw this line in a post a read yesterday. Sorry I can't remember who said it and I hope it's ok to repeat it here.
>
> <quote>
>
> "Depression is not a rational disease. Your mind is not working properly"
>
> <end quote>
>
> I totally agree with those statements. However, if we can not think properly, can we still be held accountable for what we do?
>
> AG
Even if noone else holds me accountable, I hold myself accountable. I've always been that way and so far the depression/anxiety hasn't taken that.
Posted by Angel Girl on June 16, 2004, at 5:02:43
In reply to Re: Accountability » Angel Girl, posted by octopusprime on June 15, 2004, at 10:03:06
> > I totally agree with those statements. However, if we can not think properly, can we still be held accountable for what we do?
>
> disclaimer: i am not a lawyer, nothing i say constitutes legal advice, everything i say will be held against you ...
>
> that said, most people that are depressed are still accountable for their actions.
>
> one must be found be a court of law to be "insane" before one is no longer accountable for her actions.
>
> from nolo.com(*):
> "Various definitions of insanity are in use because neither the legal system nor psychiatrists can agree on a single meaning of insanity in the criminal law context. The most popular definition is the "McNaghten rule," which defines insanity as "the inability to distinguish right from wrong." Another common test is known as "irresistible impulse": a person may know that an act is wrong, but because of mental illness he cannot control his actions (he's described as acting out of an "irresistible impulse")."
>
> it seems to me that the "irrationality" of depression is most frequently negative distorted thinking, not a fundamental alteration of the understanding of right and wrong. there are cases of depressed people that would be insane by most tests; however i think these people are the minority.
>
> (*) http://www.nolo.com/lawcenter/ency/article.cfm/ObjectID/F7D2015C-DDD4-494B-B7B9D6D6D9FAC218/catID/9084D9CE-7259-4AC7-ABAC23333466322C
octopusprimeThanks for taking the time to provide that link. I guess I was more so thinking in regards to relationships, etc.
ie: If I'm depressed, which of course I am, and somebody says something to me that I misinterpret, as I often do, and react in a very irrational way, as I always do, can a rational reaction from me be too high of expectations from the other person. Have I confused you? lol!!!
I guess what I'm trying so clumsily to say is that if somebody says something to me that I totally misinterpret and I react in a bad way, therefore the other person gets mad at me and tells me that I can't blame everything on my illness.
If I react with irrational thinking then how can somebody expect me to react rationally, when in fact, due to depression and my brain chemistry, is impossible for me to do right now.
I guess bottom line is, can a *normal* person who thinks rationally to everything, expect a mentally ill person, who does not think rationally, to react in a rational manner when it clearly is not within their brain chemistry at this point to do so?
Ok, now I feel like I'm just going in circles and probably not saying what I'd like to very well at all. I hope you can make some heads and tails out of this bunch of jumbled words.AG
Posted by deirdrehbrt on June 16, 2004, at 8:30:09
In reply to Re: Accountability » octopusprime, posted by Angel Girl on June 16, 2004, at 5:02:43
Angel Girl,
I think that most people who understand mental illness would not hold us responsible for behaviors that result from our illness. For example, someone who is desperatly angry, perhaps threatened with divorce, may try to manipulate their partner by threatening suicide if ther relationship is coming to an end. They would be held accountable for being manipulative. On the other hand, those of us who are ill, would say it for different reasons. We might be genuinely suicidal. Though the same thing was said, we probably wouldn't be held to the same standards of responsibility as the person who does not suffer from mental illness. The 'sane' person made a threat to try to prevent divorce. The depressed person stated a fact.
There are maybe lots of other examples, but my brain isn't working that well right now. :)
Dee.
Posted by Angel Girl on June 16, 2004, at 10:44:23
In reply to Re: Accountability, posted by Catgirl on June 15, 2004, at 19:05:52
> > I saw this line in a post a read yesterday. Sorry I can't remember who said it and I hope it's ok to repeat it here.
> >
> > <quote>
> >
> > "Depression is not a rational disease. Your mind is not working properly"
> >
> > <end quote>
> >
> > I totally agree with those statements. However, if we can not think properly, can we still be held accountable for what we do?
> >
> > AG
>
>
> Even if noone else holds me accountable, I hold myself accountable. I've always been that way and so far the depression/anxiety hasn't taken that.
>
Ok, well now I feel like total $hit. I was just starting to let up on myself and give myself a break until I learn the skills in therapy to change my thought processes to be rational. :(AG
Posted by octopusprime on June 16, 2004, at 11:09:13
In reply to Re: Accountability » octopusprime, posted by Angel Girl on June 16, 2004, at 5:02:43
hi ag:
your follow-up post to mine made sense. but i didn't see anything about accountability in there, but i saw a lot of things about expectations.
to answer your implied questions in no particular order:
is it fair to expect somebody who is depressed to behave as if he or she is not depressed? NO
do people do it anyway? YES
is it super-annoying? YES
does it do long term damage to relationships? YES
is it all the depressed person's fault? NO
this is one of those "life's not fair" issues. in an ideal world, a partner or friend would accomodate your illness after a serious discussion. you would take responsibility for following a treatment plan and avoiding triggering situations. that's a fair and accountable way to manage depression. but that's not how it works in the real world.
Posted by octopusprime on June 16, 2004, at 11:15:23
In reply to Re: Accountability, posted by deirdrehbrt on June 16, 2004, at 8:30:09
dee this is an interesting scenario.
however i disagree that mentally ill people are not held accountable, i think they're just accountable in different ways.in the scenario you describe, the consequences are different for each person: the non-mentally-ill person gets called an insulting name and dumped; the mentally ill one gets asked if there are any sharps around and tossed in the mental hospital. either way there is some accountability for the statements, but the consequences change.
i think we get to "own", and be accountable for, behaviour while depressed/insane for the rest of our lives. for example once i had a messed up episode (where i clearly belonged in a mental hospital but refused to check myself in) and i tried to hurt my friend. he's not my friend any more. that's accountability, right? owning up to the natural consequences of one's actions, regardless if one was in a "right" state of mind when they occurred?
> Angel Girl,
> I think that most people who understand mental illness would not hold us responsible for behaviors that result from our illness. For example, someone who is desperatly angry, perhaps threatened with divorce, may try to manipulate their partner by threatening suicide if ther relationship is coming to an end. They would be held accountable for being manipulative. On the other hand, those of us who are ill, would say it for different reasons. We might be genuinely suicidal. Though the same thing was said, we probably wouldn't be held to the same standards of responsibility as the person who does not suffer from mental illness. The 'sane' person made a threat to try to prevent divorce. The depressed person stated a fact.
> There are maybe lots of other examples, but my brain isn't working that well right now. :)
> Dee.
Posted by Angel Girl on June 16, 2004, at 11:22:42
In reply to Re: Accountability, posted by deirdrehbrt on June 16, 2004, at 8:30:09
> Angel Girl,
> I think that most people who understand mental illness would not hold us responsible for behaviors that result from our illness. For example, someone who is desperatly angry, perhaps threatened with divorce, may try to manipulate their partner by threatening suicide if ther relationship is coming to an end. They would be held accountable for being manipulative. On the other hand, those of us who are ill, would say it for different reasons. We might be genuinely suicidal. Though the same thing was said, we probably wouldn't be held to the same standards of responsibility as the person who does not suffer from mental illness. The 'sane' person made a threat to try to prevent divorce. The depressed person stated a fact.
> There are maybe lots of other examples, but my brain isn't working that well right now. :)
> Dee.Dee
I totally agree with what you have used as an example. I guess what I'm referring to is between *friends*. You see, I have a *real* tendency to react irrationally to things said to me because I interpret things a lot differently than what was really meant by the person who said it to me. The end result is that the othe person gets extremely annoyed with me because I can't get my act together and see things for what they really are. They want me to react in a rational way but without the therapy I need to teach me those skills, I'm not in that place yet. Unfortunately for me, it has happened so frequently that my *friends* are leaving me left and right because they're so sick of putting up with my illness. I wish they could have a little more compassion for me but I guess they aren't willing to donate the time it would take into doing so. That leaves me alone with no friends. :(
AG
Posted by deirdrehbrt on June 16, 2004, at 12:48:19
In reply to Re: Accountability » deirdrehbrt, posted by Angel Girl on June 16, 2004, at 11:22:42
Octopus,
I agree that someone may hold you accountable for what happens because of your illness, but ultimately, the fault does lie with the illness. The offended party may not see that though. If I hurt someone because of my illness (and it has happened) of course that other person will blame me. In the end though, when I have to deal with it, I can either blame myself, which is non-productive, or I can blame the illness and try to find a way to work around that particular aspect of it.If SI is one of your problems, when you cut, who do you blame? I could blame myself for being too weak to stop or prevent it. I could blame the people who had hurt me when I was young, or I could blame the illness and try to find alternate coping mechanisms, knowing full well that the right one may not be found right away.
It's not a way of escaping responsibility, but more a way of finding a mechanism that helps us get better. Blaming ourselves is likely the one thing that most, if not all of us do with extraordinary prowess. We're all top atheletes at that. Feeling that the fault or blame lies with us for every damaged relationship, for every hurt feeling does us a disservice. Those that blame us, or hold us unaccountable are in my opinion, undereducated in regards to our illness.
On the other hand, there are those of us who use illness as a scapegoat. It may be very easy for some to take advantage of another and then blame it on mania, depression, or whatever. These people, if found out, should be held accountable.AG,
I guess that with regards to your friends, it's not really easy. My close friends know that I'm quite sick. They know that I might react irrationally. They've seen it before.
Some prior friends don't have much contact with me anymore, but those whom I really trust have become much more supportive.
I guess that it involves some risk in disclosing what your illness can do. If they know that you can say hurtfull things and not really mean it, then perhaps they will overlook that when it happens. Perhaps they will take your words, and look at how you are behaving and say "Ok, she's not herself today", and then see how you are tomorrow.Dee.
Posted by Catgirl on June 16, 2004, at 16:13:20
In reply to Re: Accountability » Catgirl, posted by Angel Girl on June 16, 2004, at 10:44:23
> > > I saw this line in a post a read yesterday. Sorry I can't remember who said it and I hope it's ok to repeat it here.
> > >
> > > <quote>
> > >
> > > "Depression is not a rational disease. Your mind is not working properly"
> > >
> > > <end quote>
> > >
> > > I totally agree with those statements. However, if we can not think properly, can we still be held accountable for what we do?
> > >
> > > AG
> >
> >
> > Even if noone else holds me accountable, I hold myself accountable. I've always been that way and so far the depression/anxiety hasn't taken that.
> >
>
>
> Ok, well now I feel like total $hit. I was just starting to let up on myself and give myself a break until I learn the skills in therapy to change my thought processes to be rational. :(
>
> AGAG-
I hope that my post didn't make you feel bad, it certainly wasn't intended to. I think that sometimes I probably hold myself much more accountable than other people do--which leads to a lot of guilt, worrying, etc.
In terms of your friends, I understand. I have often pushed people away and now have only a couple of "true" friends and my husband left.
Don't forget, you have friends here that can relate to what you go through.
Posted by Angel Girl on June 16, 2004, at 18:33:54
In reply to expectations » Angel Girl, posted by octopusprime on June 16, 2004, at 11:09:13
> hi ag:
>
> your follow-up post to mine made sense. but i didn't see anything about accountability in there, but i saw a lot of things about expectations.
>
> to answer your implied questions in no particular order:
>
> is it fair to expect somebody who is depressed to behave as if he or she is not depressed? NO
>
> do people do it anyway? YES
>
> is it super-annoying? YES
>
> does it do long term damage to relationships? YES
>
> is it all the depressed person's fault? NO
>
> this is one of those "life's not fair" issues. in an ideal world, a partner or friend would accomodate your illness after a serious discussion. you would take responsibility for following a treatment plan and avoiding triggering situations. that's a fair and accountable way to manage depression. but that's not how it works in the real world.
>YOU'RE RIGHT AND THE REAL WORLD SUCKS!!!! THERE'S VERY LITTLE IF ANY COMPASSION FOR THOSE SUFFERING FROM ANY FORM OF MENTAL ILLNESS. MY *FRIENDS* EXPECT ME TO BE JUST LIKE THEM AND I CAN'T, AT LEAST NOT UNTIL I'VE GONE THROUGH THERAPY AND LEARNED HOW TO REACT IN A MORE *NORMAL* MANNER. I'M SOOOOO SICK OF ALL THIS $HIT AND EVERYTHING THAT GOES ALONG WITH IT.
Sorry, I'm just not in a good place right now, nothing personal against you, I'm going through withdrawal and I can't stand this anymore. <cries>
I think I'll get off the computer now before I alienate everbody here because I'm not feeling good.
I REALLY meant nothing against you. It's just me and these dang drugs.
AG
Posted by deirdrehbrt on June 16, 2004, at 19:14:08
In reply to Re: expectations » octopusprime, posted by Angel Girl on June 16, 2004, at 18:33:54
Hey AG,
I read this post, and my heart really goes out to you. It's no fun for any of us to have to go through all of this, but each of us does.
No, your friends don't understand. That's not your fault, but it's not really theirs either. Not so long ago, people who were ill like us were stuck away in a hospital. If you saw "Girl Interrupted" try to realize that that movie was based on the real life experiences of Suzanna Kaysen. She spent a year in a hopsital with Borderline Personality Disorder.
People like us were hidden away. In some sense, we are still hidden away. We're just hidden in the open. You don't see much on TV about mental illness, except for depression described as "You just don't enjoy things the same way as you used to". You see tons of stuff of GURD, IBS, PMS, ADD, ADHD, Hypertension, High cholesterol, erectile difficulties, and just about anything else you can imagine. You don't see Bipolar anything, Severe depression, Borderline, Schizophrenia, nothing of what we're really dealing with, unless it's on a program like CSI, or something where there is a character who happens to have the condition.
I guess I'm angry too. I don't meet people and say "Hi, I'm Dee. I'm a multiple. Who do you keep for company?" I have to know someone fairly well before I disclose the things that go on in my head. Sometimes, it shows, and I have to explain.
On the other hand, people can be playing cards together, and when one says that they can't eat the chips because they have high blood pressure, everyone there is happy to talk about it. If I say that I cut myself last night, the table would be quiet, and the party would maybe end early.
I think that the only real solution is to talk to our close friends, explain to them that we really love them, and need for them to understand why we do the things we do, what we're doing, and the steps that we're taking to try to get better.
I guess that I want my friends to know that I NEED them. I've been there for them, and I need them to be there for me. Maybe that's a good place for the accountability to start.
It's so terribly hard. You can't live alone with a disease like this and expect to get better. We need to be able to rely on people. Even when we're sick, we are willing to help out. It's our turn to need their help. Maybe accountability needs to be placed on society to not ignore us.
Ok, done ranting.Dee.
Posted by Angel Girl on June 18, 2004, at 9:19:09
In reply to Re: Accountability, posted by deirdrehbrt on June 16, 2004, at 12:48:19
>
> AG,
>
> I guess that with regards to your friends, it's not really easy. My close friends know that I'm quite sick. They know that I might react irrationally. They've seen it before.
> Some prior friends don't have much contact with me anymore, but those whom I really trust have become much more supportive.
> I guess that it involves some risk in disclosing what your illness can do. If they know that you can say hurtfull things and not really mean it, then perhaps they will overlook that when it happens. Perhaps they will take your words, and look at how you are behaving and say "Ok, she's not herself today", and then see how you are tomorrow.
>
> Dee.Dee
You must have better *friends* than I do. Mine are just sick of me and my being BP and all that goes along with it (funny, I'm sick of it too). They expect me to be no different than they are. Where's the understanding in that? I *wish* I could be the same as them. It's as if they think I like being this way. Yea, right!!! :(
AG
Posted by Angel Girl on June 18, 2004, at 10:07:14
In reply to Re: Accountability, posted by Catgirl on June 16, 2004, at 16:13:20
> > > > I saw this line in a post a read yesterday. Sorry I can't remember who said it and I hope it's ok to repeat it here.
> > > >
> > > > <quote>
> > > >
> > > > "Depression is not a rational disease. Your mind is not working properly"
> > > >
> > > > <end quote>
> > > >
> > > > I totally agree with those statements. However, if we can not think properly, can we still be held accountable for what we do?
> > > >
> > > > AG
> > >
> > >
> > > Even if noone else holds me accountable, I hold myself accountable. I've always been that way and so far the depression/anxiety hasn't taken that.
> > >
> >
> >
> > Ok, well now I feel like total $hit. I was just starting to let up on myself and give myself a break until I learn the skills in therapy to change my thought processes to be rational. :(
> >
> > AG
>
> AG-
> I hope that my post didn't make you feel bad, it certainly wasn't intended to. I think that sometimes I probably hold myself much more accountable than other people do--which leads to a lot of guilt, worrying, etc.
> In terms of your friends, I understand. I have often pushed people away and now have only a couple of "true" friends and my husband left.
> Don't forget, you have friends here that can relate to what you go through.
>
CatgirlDon't worry about it. I'm just going through a REAL rough time right now going through withdrawal from one of my meds. I probably should stay off the msg board so I don't say anything that I'll regret later. Everythings ok about your comment, no worries. I don't have any *true* friends anymore. :(
AG
Posted by Angel Girl on June 18, 2004, at 10:57:21
In reply to Re: expectations, posted by deirdrehbrt on June 16, 2004, at 19:14:08
> Hey AG,
>
> I read this post, and my heart really goes out to you. It's no fun for any of us to have to go through all of this, but each of us does.
> No, your friends don't understand. That's not your fault, but it's not really theirs either. Not so long ago, people who were ill like us were stuck away in a hospital. If you saw "Girl Interrupted" try to realize that that movie was based on the real life experiences of Suzanna Kaysen. She spent a year in a hopsital with Borderline Personality Disorder.
> People like us were hidden away. In some sense, we are still hidden away. We're just hidden in the open. You don't see much on TV about mental illness, except for depression described as "You just don't enjoy things the same way as you used to". You see tons of stuff of GURD, IBS, PMS, ADD, ADHD, Hypertension, High cholesterol, erectile difficulties, and just about anything else you can imagine. You don't see Bipolar anything, Severe depression, Borderline, Schizophrenia, nothing of what we're really dealing with, unless it's on a program like CSI, or something where there is a character who happens to have the condition.
> I guess I'm angry too. I don't meet people and say "Hi, I'm Dee. I'm a multiple. Who do you keep for company?" I have to know someone fairly well before I disclose the things that go on in my head. Sometimes, it shows, and I have to explain.
> On the other hand, people can be playing cards together, and when one says that they can't eat the chips because they have high blood pressure, everyone there is happy to talk about it. If I say that I cut myself last night, the table would be quiet, and the party would maybe end early.
> I think that the only real solution is to talk to our close friends, explain to them that we really love them, and need for them to understand why we do the things we do, what we're doing, and the steps that we're taking to try to get better.
> I guess that I want my friends to know that I NEED them. I've been there for them, and I need them to be there for me. Maybe that's a good place for the accountability to start.
> It's so terribly hard. You can't live alone with a disease like this and expect to get better. We need to be able to rely on people. Even when we're sick, we are willing to help out. It's our turn to need their help. Maybe accountability needs to be placed on society to not ignore us.
> Ok, done ranting.
>
> Dee.
DeeYou're right with the different scenerios that you mentioned. Those would be the probable results to the given situations you mentioned. I think people shun from that which scares them. Today it is the mentally ill, yesterday it was cancer. People used to, and maybe still do to some degree, think that if they associate with those that have it, they'll get it too. As mentally ill people were locked away years ago, in my mother's generation, if you had the big *C* then all of sudden your number of friends started to dwindling. Everyone was afraid that they'd catch it from you like the common cold.
Thankfully, people have learned enough about the big *C* now that it doesn't have the stigma attached to it that it did several years ago. I'm not really sure that mental illness will ever lose the stigma. Actually, today to say you are 'depressed' can be used so commonplace and not in the actual medical sense. ie: I'm depressed, my friend is going away for the weekend and I'm going to be alone. That's not depression. I don't think that the majority of people *really* know what depression is. They think it's being *sad*. To be honest, I don't think *anybody* knows what it feels like to be depressed unless they've actually experienced it themselves. You can imagine what it might be like but in reality whatever you imagine doesn't come anywhere close to what the reality of depression really is. I've resided down in that *black pit of despair* and NOBODY could even begin to imagine THAT hell. Ok, I've gotten way off track and rambled on.
As for my *friends*. I don't think there is anything that can be done now. They're just so sick of my illness and that I will react to something in an irrational way or that I get paranoid or that I interpret things differently than what they were meant to be. They want an easy relationship. I guess they felt that this depression of mine was going to be something very short-lived and it hasn't. Bottom line is they're just sick and tired of me, like it or not, I have to accept it. I can certainly understand how tiring I must be to them. I didn't wish to be this way and you know what, *I'm* sick and tired of me too.
AG
Posted by deirdrehbrt on June 18, 2004, at 16:43:41
In reply to Re: expectations » deirdrehbrt, posted by Angel Girl on June 18, 2004, at 10:57:21
Angel Girl,
You hit on one point that is really important. That's the difference between sadness and depression. Listen to people sometimes, you'll hear so many people who say "I'm so depressed" when something relatively minor happens in their life, like their computer broke, or their pet goldfish died.
So they can't go online with the convenience that they could before, so they have got to get a goldfish. These are things that can make someone sad, but it's not depression; not at all. But people equate this sadness to depression, and think that what we have is what they called depression.
People look at those advertisements on TV late at night by the makers of antidepressants. "Are you sad? Have you lost interest in things? Then you might have depression" You know what? Yeah, I'm sad. I'm so d*mned sad that I don't want to live anymore. Lost interest? Lost interest in living. Kinda different from what most people experience. I have to fight to want to stay alive.
Other people aren't going to get it. Sometimes when people will ask me if I want to do something with them, I might strain myself to do it. Very rarely, I might even enjoy it. Often though, I just find a way to avoid doing it.
Probably the biggest problem with being depressed is that you are so incredibly tired, almost all of the time. If you told people you had chronic fatigue, maybe they would understand. Rather than being a little sad, you're simply unable to do things. I don't think that it's way off to say that you have chronic fatigue when you are terribly depressed. Maybe explaining it that way might help a bit.
I don't know.....Dee.
Posted by Angel Girl on June 19, 2004, at 11:27:55
In reply to Re: expectations, posted by deirdrehbrt on June 18, 2004, at 16:43:41
Dee
Yes, I agree with everything you've said. Telling people I have chronic fatigue would certainly explain part of it (as I sit here thinking I need a nap right now) but there is also the other part as you stated, the losing interest in things, even the interest to stay alive. I know exactly what you're feeling, I've been there. I was in that black hole so long, I never thought I would ever get out. It is such a horrible place to be and nobody but nobody will ever be able to understand *that* part of depression without having been there. I can remember standing at my bathroom vanity looking at the countless bottles of pills and feeling compelled to take every single one because I was so incredibly depressed and the strange thing was that I had no idea what drove me to that point on that particular day because nothing had happened. Have you had days like that? It's just horrible. At least if you know what drove you to that point, that's one thing but to have this overwhelming compulsion to kill yourself and not know why, that I think is the lowest you can go, short of going through with it.
AG
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Social | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.