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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Susan J on January 14, 2004, at 9:46:56
This really enrages me, both as a lawyer and a person dealing with depression! Errrrrr!
(CNN) -- Defense lawyers for NBA star Kobe Bryant said in a court document filed Tuesday the woman who accuses Bryant of raping her suffers from a bipolar disorder, and that her medical and mental health history is vital to the case.
In a response to a prosecution motion saying the alleged victim's medical and mental health are not relevant to the case, the defense cites various medical and legal cases in its argument to admit the records for a trial.
Bipolar disorder is also known as manic depressive illness. It is characterized by movement between extremes, such as euphoria and depression, and can be a serious and disabling mental illness.
The documents say the accuser's medical and mental history may demonstrate her "motive, scheme, plan and modus operandi for falsely accusing Mr. Bryant of sexual assault" and should also be considered as a jury determines her credibility.
Full Story at:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/01/14/bryant.defense.bipolar/index.html
Posted by Penny on January 14, 2004, at 10:59:59
In reply to Kobe Bryant Defense - Accuser is Bipolar!, posted by Susan J on January 14, 2004, at 9:46:56
And what, exactly, has her being bipolar got to do with anything?? Seems the defense are perpetuating false beliefs about mental illness. Being bipolar makes her a liar? Oh please. What is WRONG with people???
Posted by Emme on January 14, 2004, at 12:39:06
In reply to Re: Kobe Bryant Defense - Accuser is Bipolar!, posted by Penny on January 14, 2004, at 10:59:59
Even with the remaining stigma against mental illness, I can't BELIEVE they would come up with such an incredibly outrageous defense! That is just over the top.
Posted by Poet on January 14, 2004, at 12:39:22
In reply to Re: Kobe Bryant Defense - Accuser is Bipolar!, posted by Penny on January 14, 2004, at 10:59:59
Next they'll say she was dressed provocatively and asked for it. Argh!
Posted by Angielala on January 14, 2004, at 13:07:18
In reply to Kobe Bryant Defense - Accuser is Bipolar!, posted by Susan J on January 14, 2004, at 9:46:56
Grrrrreaaaaat.... not like I was having a hard enough time explaining to my boss that I'm not *insane*.... stigma... GRRRRRRRRRRrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
> This really enrages me, both as a lawyer and a person dealing with depression! Errrrrr!
>
> (CNN) -- Defense lawyers for NBA star Kobe Bryant said in a court document filed Tuesday the woman who accuses Bryant of raping her suffers from a bipolar disorder, and that her medical and mental health history is vital to the case.
>
> In a response to a prosecution motion saying the alleged victim's medical and mental health are not relevant to the case, the defense cites various medical and legal cases in its argument to admit the records for a trial.
>
> Bipolar disorder is also known as manic depressive illness. It is characterized by movement between extremes, such as euphoria and depression, and can be a serious and disabling mental illness.
>
> The documents say the accuser's medical and mental history may demonstrate her "motive, scheme, plan and modus operandi for falsely accusing Mr. Bryant of sexual assault" and should also be considered as a jury determines her credibility.
>
> Full Story at:
>
> http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/01/14/bryant.defense.bipolar/index.html
Posted by Susan J on January 14, 2004, at 13:16:54
In reply to Re: Kobe Bryant Defense - Accuser is Bipolar!, posted by Angielala on January 14, 2004, at 13:07:18
Well, the prosecution will have to counter anything bad the defense says about bipolar disorder, so maybe some true information about the condition will emerge.
Of course, your regular joe schmoe watching the trial will just keep routing for whatever outcome they want, but it *might* educate some more open-minded folks.
I guess BPD might be on trial, too, huh?
Posted by coral on January 14, 2004, at 19:08:19
In reply to Might Have Some Good Come Out of It » Angielala, posted by Susan J on January 14, 2004, at 13:16:54
There is another side of this, now that BPD has been mentioned (Borderline Personality Disorder.) It is extremely common for BPD's to accuse others of absolutely heinous crimes, including child molestation. I don't know if Kobe Bryant is guilty and nor whether the woman's mental state is relevant; hopefully the trail will answer these questions.
Posted by judy1 on January 14, 2004, at 19:36:07
In reply to Might Have Some Good Come Out of It » Angielala, posted by Susan J on January 14, 2004, at 13:16:54
thanks for posting that Susan, to be honest I wasn't at all surprised. The defense has been questioning her mental status all along so I expected some sort of diagnosis, and bipolar or borderline fit with the symptoms they have been releasing. initially I was upset because I share that dx, but imagine how people who suffer with schizophrenia felt when a man suffering from schizophrenia pushed a woman into an uncoming subway in NYC which led to some law (forgot the name) calling for forced medication. Are you a defense attorney? Is this the norm to use the mental status of an accuser in a defense?
thanks, judy
Posted by deirdrehbrt on January 14, 2004, at 21:10:35
In reply to Re: Might Have Some Good Come Out of It » Susan J, posted by judy1 on January 14, 2004, at 19:36:07
Until my first hospitalization, I was a Rape Crisis Counselor. It's amazing how the victims of sexual violence are almost always subjected to completely unreasnoable intrusions into their life. The main reason, at least in my opinion, is that the defense hopes to get the victim to drop the case or to refuse to testify. They will use ANY means that they have available to discredit, cooerce, or intimidate the one who has been wronged. In a very real sense, by bringing the criminal to justice, one is tormented again.
Even in states like NH, where the crime of r*pe is a crime against the state, thereby making the survivor a witness rather than victim, the survivor will be investigated to miniscule details by the defense. Part of our job as counselors was to tell these people what they might expect should the decide to go to trial. This wasn't to discourage them, but rather to give them enough information to decide if they were ready to go through it.
It stinks. Too many people who've been severely traumatized are hurt again by a system that grants superior rights to the offenders, and renders the hurt as someone who can be re-traumatized, having fewer rights and less privacy than the offender. It hurts.
Dee.
Posted by Susan J on January 15, 2004, at 7:38:12
In reply to Re: Might Have Some Good Come Out of It » Susan J, posted by judy1 on January 14, 2004, at 19:36:07
>> Are you a defense attorney?
<<No, but I did work in the criminal justice system in Baltimore for years and saw tons of rape cases. One of the worst was when a well-known prostitute got raped by two men. The men always claimed prostitutes cry rape because the men don't pay them. And even if a prostitute lies a million times, it doesn't mean her right to control her body has been surrendered. The guys got off with really short sentences. And I just get outraged because a prostitute is capable of being raped, too.I think people should stop looking at the act of rape as something dealing with a sexual act. I know that's a component of it, obviously, but the *crime* to me is that it is an act against the victim's will. The victim had her right to control what happens to her body taken away from her.
When a person says no, no matter at what time, no matter how far along even a *consensual* sexual encounter has gone, if a person, man or woman, says no, the partner *must* respect that decision. That's the law on the books in Colorado that Kobe's up against. That's the law in Maryland. I assume there's something similar in most states. I don't know about other countries of people who post here.
>> Is this the norm to use the mental status of an accuser in a defense?
<<This is exactly why I couldn't do criminal law. I firmly believe everyone has a right to a fair and complete defense. It's the basis of our criminal justice system. But often the end doesn't justify the means. The law is a tool to serve humanity, humans are not meant to be a slave to the law. Many attorneys place more value on making sure someone gets a fair defense than they place on the welfare of the victim.If you don't know whether your client is guilty or not, and often attorneys don't *want* to know, then I find it morally repugnant to stand there and destroy a person who's already been through so much in order to help the client beat the charges.
But yes, it's standard for a defense attorney to use any (legal) means necessary to get his client off, even browbeating a witness, *especially* browbeating a witness. Many states like Colorado have some victim protection laws on the books trying to prevent a victim from having her sexual history dragged into the case and that type of thing. The victim often has to be really strong all over again just to survive, and many choose for this reason, not to testify. Then everyone thinks she must not have really been raped or she would have testified. It just sucks all the way around.
Sorry for writing so much. This type of thing really bugs me. And to drag mental health into it is really low. I don't see the bearing it, in itself, could have on whether she is falsely accusing him of rape. And it *will* take more than just saying she's bipolar to discredit her. It's just sad they are using a mental health condition as a means to discredit someone at all.
I don't know how Kobe's lawyer can sleep at night.
Posted by judy1 on January 15, 2004, at 9:05:38
In reply to Not a Defense Attorney but Did Work in the Jails » judy1, posted by Susan J on January 15, 2004, at 7:38:12
thanks so much for your point of view Susan. I couldn't agree more with the unfairness of the law when it comes to rape victims, and can totally understand why you're unable to practice criminal law. This case underscores the fears I have when it comes to being involved in the legal system, as a person on the wrong side of a civil suit I was terrified my mental history would come into play. fortunately, my shrink has promised to keep my records private no matter what. I don't think everyone is afforded that peace of mind.
take care, judy
Posted by judy1 on January 15, 2004, at 9:12:04
In reply to Re: Might Have Some Good Come Out of It, posted by deirdrehbrt on January 14, 2004, at 21:10:35
As a victim I know how traumatic it is to consider pressing charges. I was glad to have the type of counselling you used to provide and made the decision not to move forward. It must be unbearable for the woman in this case, I've read her identity is fairly well known locally, and for her history to come out like this is unimaginable.
take care, judy
Posted by deirdrehbrt on January 15, 2004, at 17:57:08
In reply to Re: Might Have Some Good Come Out of It » deirdrehbrt, posted by judy1 on January 15, 2004, at 9:12:04
It's so sad when a woman is assaulted, first by an assailant, and then by the legal system. I honestly don't think that either is worse. There are the feelings and physical effects of the assault, and that is followed by a total destruction of your character. The questions, and the implications drawn from the answers can ruin marriages, cause the loss of custody of your children, and cause the loss of jobs.
I don't think that that it should be legal to question in this fashion. If the only point of the questioning is to destroy a woman's reputation, it's wrong. If the point is to call attention to (as President Bush once said) 'youthfull indescressions', then there is no real point either.
If, and this is quite unlikely, a woman ensnared someone, then perhaps that questioning might be something that I could understand. I doubt seriously that this happens every day.
Men still say that women don't mean 'NO'. Men still say that women 'like it rough'. Men still joke about it afterward. Not all men, but still too many. I really don't know what to do about it. Maybe we can have some sort of campaign to change some of the laws that allow the harrassment of the witness. Maybe we could let the juries know what happens to women who have been so hurt. Maybe we can stress safety when we educate women.
I don't have the answers, but I think we should really look.
Dee.
Posted by Angielala on January 19, 2004, at 11:13:52
In reply to Might Have Some Good Come Out of It » Angielala, posted by Susan J on January 14, 2004, at 13:16:54
I wish you were with my this past Ssaturday. I was in Dunkin Donuts, waiting in line. And of course my ADHD is super active right now- so I'm listening to the conversation at the table next to the line I'm in. A guy is reading the paper and the girl is just hanging out. He puts the paper down and says- "Jeez- well, I guess Kobe is innocent- they found out that girl is crazy"
Dumb, impulsive me looks right at him and say "Bipolar Disorder doesn't mean your crazy." The girl said "My aunt had Bipolar and she was crazy- you don't know what you are talking about." I said, "I feel bad that your aunt has ignorant relatives that don't understand her." The girl says, "She commited suicide two years ago." I said, "Gee I wonder why- look at how her niece thought of her." She got up, I though she was going to hit me, but instead she started crying and went to the bathroom.
I couldn't fight my rage, I couldn't keep my mouth shut. I felt so horrible after that, and angry. Yet, there I am, standing there, thinking "Oh My God- I hope my neices don't consider me crazy!"
I'm so impulsive, it really irritates me. I didn't have any filters in my head working to keep me from saying something so hurtful... it was as if though she hurt me with her stupid comment and I wanted to hurt her just as bad- and did (maybe more). I really didn't prove any points, I just looked like a jerk.
> Well, the prosecution will have to counter anything bad the defense says about bipolar disorder, so maybe some true information about the condition will emerge.
>
> Of course, your regular joe schmoe watching the trial will just keep routing for whatever outcome they want, but it *might* educate some more open-minded folks.
>
> I guess BPD might be on trial, too, huh?
>
Posted by leo33 on January 19, 2004, at 23:42:23
In reply to Re: Might Have Some Good Come Out of It, posted by deirdrehbrt on January 15, 2004, at 17:57:08
I also think laws should be in place for the cases where women falsely accussed men of these crimes as well. There has to be a balance otherwise the system will be exploited. By the way my feeling on this case is its just a media circus and that Kobe will end up getting off with typical celebrity justice. I believe the girl in this case. But there is a lot to question in this particular situation.
Posted by Penny on January 20, 2004, at 8:45:47
In reply to I wish you were all there Saturday...., posted by Angielala on January 19, 2004, at 11:13:52
Well, you might have said something that you regret, but perhaps it was what the girl needed to hear. Craziness is subjective, and it makes me angry too when someone says something like that. Just because her aunt committed suicide doesn't make her crazy - and if the girl's view of her aunt's illness is indicative of the family's general view, then the aunt probably didn't have all the support she needed.
Not that anyone can stop the suicide of someone who really wants to take their own life, and not that others are ever really the 'cause' of someone else's suicide - I firmly believe that ultimately suicide is our own decision and we have to take responsibility for that. But it certainly is helpful when other people understand, especially people who are supposedly close to you. But anyway, I guess this is going off on a tangent a bit.
P
Posted by Angielala on January 21, 2004, at 8:06:12
In reply to Re: I wish you were all there Saturday.... » Angielala, posted by Penny on January 20, 2004, at 8:45:47
I did a lot of thinking that night and didn't know what to make of my actions. All I kept envisioning was this girl talking to her mom about what happened... having her mom say that crazy people are just "like that"....
Gah
> Well, you might have said something that you regret, but perhaps it was what the girl needed to hear. Craziness is subjective, and it makes me angry too when someone says something like that. Just because her aunt committed suicide doesn't make her crazy - and if the girl's view of her aunt's illness is indicative of the family's general view, then the aunt probably didn't have all the support she needed.
>
> Not that anyone can stop the suicide of someone who really wants to take their own life, and not that others are ever really the 'cause' of someone else's suicide - I firmly believe that ultimately suicide is our own decision and we have to take responsibility for that. But it certainly is helpful when other people understand, especially people who are supposedly close to you. But anyway, I guess this is going off on a tangent a bit.
>
> P
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