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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by NikkiT2 on December 14, 2003, at 9:20:58
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3317429.stm
I just hope this means an end to the killing now. I've always been anti the war, not because I didn't want Saddam captured, as he needed to be, but because of the killing and lies.
But.. I just hope now that things will be returning to safety.
Nikki x
Posted by Psychopoppy on December 14, 2003, at 13:22:44
In reply to Atleast we have some good news.. Saddam captured!, posted by NikkiT2 on December 14, 2003, at 9:20:58
I dont think the killings will stop now (saddam or not) because the insurgents are fighting against occupation by a foreign military on their home soil. I dont think they were only doing this because Saddam was still around....since these people had no way of knowing if he was alive or dead before.
I too wish and pray for the killings to stop but I dont think thats how things work over there.
Posted by deirdrehbrt on December 14, 2003, at 20:41:09
In reply to Re: Atleast we have some good news.. Saddam captured!, posted by Psychopoppy on December 14, 2003, at 13:22:44
I've been watching things on and off on TV today, and I was left with one thought: Wasn't that capture sort of perfect for the US? What more could the US have asked for? Not only was our enemy captured, but captured in a manner which is completely demeaning and humiliating. He was captured in a hole, with no defense, without firing his weapon.
I don't know about anyone else, but I am just a bit suspicious. It sounds too good to be true.
Maybe it's my illness, maybe I'm reading things into the situation, but That's what I'm thinking right now.
Dee.
Posted by sb417 on December 14, 2003, at 22:43:57
In reply to Atleast we have some good news.. Saddam captured!, posted by NikkiT2 on December 14, 2003, at 9:20:58
Posted by Jai Narayan on December 15, 2003, at 19:59:33
In reply to Re: Atleast we have some good news.. Saddam captured!, posted by deirdrehbrt on December 14, 2003, at 20:41:09
I am so sick of this country and it's desire to kill, kill, kill unless..of course... you might want to end your life early because you have a terrible illness and your suffering is only getting worse. Then you have no rights! You have to live it out. Every pain and agony has to be extended till your last breath. No right to die in Vermont. And then there's....okay I'm done with my rant.
Posted by deirdrehbrt on December 15, 2003, at 21:26:17
In reply to Re: Atleast we have some good news.. Saddam captu, posted by Jai Narayan on December 15, 2003, at 19:59:33
I mostly agree with you. I think that this hunt for a deck of cards is completely creepy. I think that turning the apprehention of criminals into a game is terrible, and I think that we could have solved our problems without spending billions upon billions of dollars on an entire military escapade. I think that too much was fabricated in an attempt to justify it.
On the other hand, our citizens deserve safety. but there is a problem with that now. We have barged into another country, more than one for that matter, to impose our laws upon another nation. I have a hard time believing that these actions will bring an end to terrorism. I doubt that those who have the will to exercise terrorism on the US will be hindered by what we've done.
Frankly, I worry a bit, not over anything specific, but in general. I don't want to live as many do in Tel Aviv, and I likely won't. I like living in more rural areas, and they are unlikely to be targets. Having been in the military, I'm not too worried about their safety. I understand that some will die, and that saddens me. I'm willing to bet though, that many more civil servants here die in an equal period, on average.
I think that it really stinks that we have to live in a world like this. We have adults ab***ng kids, industry ab***ng the environment, and the government abusing citizens. How can we win?
Dee.
Posted by DSCH on December 15, 2003, at 22:54:18
In reply to Re: Atleast we have some good news.. Saddam captu, posted by deirdrehbrt on December 15, 2003, at 21:26:17
> I mostly agree with you. I think that this hunt for a deck of cards is completely creepy. I think that turning the apprehention of criminals into a game is terrible, and I think that we could have solved our problems without spending billions upon billions of dollars on an entire military escapade.
And your idea for solving this is...?
>I think that too much was fabricated in an attempt to justify it.
> On the other hand, our citizens deserve safety. but there is a problem with that now. We have barged into another country, more than one for that matter, to impose our laws upon another nation.*Our* laws? No. To attempt to impose UN resolutions that the UN itself was showing no desire to effectively enforce themselves (a result of greed on the part of those who found Saddam's rule helped their balance of trade)!
If no WMD are found, then it will underscore the utter folly of Saddam's refusal to stop playing shell games with the inspections regime. In my thinking he may have tried to play an elaborate double-bluff game in hampering inspections while stopping work and dismantling WMDs, trusting that the world would be deterred by the thought that he still would have some ready at hand. If this is what happened, it definately backfired on him!
There is an awful lot of desert out there though. And they have shown a propensity for burying equipment out there (entire aircraft for example).
>I have a hard time believing that these actions will bring an end to terrorism. I doubt that those who have the will to exercise terrorism on the US will be hindered by what we've done.
IMO they have shifted focus from killing Americans at home to disrupting the occupation and reconstruction efforts in Iraq. I think this is an improvement. Engage them on their home turf.
No one action will stop terrorism. This does not mean we should take a wholly passive and defensive outlook.
Posted by DSCH on December 15, 2003, at 23:10:18
In reply to Re: Atleast we have some good news.. Saddam captured!, posted by Psychopoppy on December 14, 2003, at 13:22:44
> I dont think the killings will stop now (saddam or not) because the insurgents are fighting against occupation by a foreign military on their home soil. I dont think they were only doing this because Saddam was still around....since these people had no way of knowing if he was alive or dead before.
Paperwork found in the raid has led to the Army capturing a number of resistance leaders. Kinda pokes a hole in that argument, doesn't it?
It won't stop attacks. But the most postive impact, IMO, will be to encourage those who were afraid to speak up and act against insurgency in the fear that Saddam would come back to power once we left.
Posted by Dinah on December 16, 2003, at 10:35:06
In reply to Re: Atleast we have some good news.. Saddam captu, posted by Jai Narayan on December 15, 2003, at 19:59:33
Well, I for one am glad that a man who brutalized and terrified his people for so many years that I wouldn't be surprised if that country wasn't suffering some form of collective battered wife syndrome was captured alive to be given to those people to face them and accept their verdict on his actions. I can just imagine that if I had had to fear my family or I being taken away never to be heard from again for criticizing a man who had set himself up as an all-powerful being, that I wouldn't feel safe just because he was no longer in sight. The years and years of fear would probably have me believing that somehow he would still be able to regain power and get me.
To those people, the capture of Saddam may be the beginning of healing from their collective trauma. To be empowered now to put him on trial might be liberating.
I also have some inkling how it must have felt to see him pulled out of a hole in the ground, this man who had seemed so all powerful. I imagine there are a lot of mixed feelings.
As an American, I can't particularly say I feel the urge to kill, kill, kill. I might possibly admit to an urge to wish to try to help people who may not want to be helped. Heck, I'll admit to that as a person, never mind a country.
Posted by Jai Narayan on December 16, 2003, at 15:49:55
In reply to Re: Atleast we have some good news.. Saddam captu, posted by Dinah on December 16, 2003, at 10:35:06
It's the only place where I can find some real news these days....except local newspapers. I am upset that we are: putting our citizens at risk, obviously our troops, putting our democracy on the chopping block, launching a religious war, killing women, children & men in two countries (overtly anyway), AND I HAVE TO PAY FOR IT!!! I have ***no*** right to say no....I would like my taxes to pay for domestic programs only (you know the feeding, housing, and putting people to work programs)....no bullets with my dollars please.
why aren't there *Veterans for Peace* license plates? IMHO
Posted by Jai Narayan on December 16, 2003, at 16:37:45
In reply to does anyone here listen to Democracy Now!, posted by Jai Narayan on December 16, 2003, at 15:49:55
Here's the website for Democarcy Now!
http://www.democracynow.org
Posted by Psychopoppy on December 17, 2003, at 1:23:29
In reply to Re: Atleast we have some good news.. Saddam captured! » Psychopoppy, posted by DSCH on December 15, 2003, at 23:10:18
> Paperwork found in the raid has led to the Army capturing a number of resistance leaders. Kinda pokes a hole in that argument, doesn't it?
uuuuuh...i think there's more than just those few that they have suppossedly captured ! There's plenty of others who'll still be fighting with or without saddam. So, NO i dont think that what the american military releases claim are enough to poke any holes. Sure makes for excellent propaganda though !
> It won't stop attacks. But the most postive impact, IMO, will be to encourage those who were afraid to speak up and act against insurgency in the fear that Saddam would come back to power once we left.
uuuhh...i dont think YOU will ever leave as long as there's still at least one drop of oil in iraq's belly to be sucked out.... so, we dont have to worry about that scenario as yet.
Posted by Dinah on December 17, 2003, at 8:21:01
In reply to Re: Atleast we have some good news.. Saddam captured!, posted by Psychopoppy on December 17, 2003, at 1:23:29
Do you have some reason to believe DSCH is an oil sucker?
Of course, my brother may well be going over there soon, so if you'd like to address it to him..... Not that he'll be sucking oil anywhere.
But I would prefer not to get all offended and burden anyone with my politics on this board, which was in fact, intended to support. If I don't feel I need to defend my country or my brother or my religion or anything else important to me, I will refrain.
Posted by Jai Narayan on December 17, 2003, at 9:08:22
In reply to Re: You? » Psychopoppy, posted by Dinah on December 17, 2003, at 8:21:01
> Of course, my brother may well be going over there soon, so if you'd like to address it to him..... Not that he'll be sucking oil anywhere.
>
I so sorry a family member will be going to that area. Is he a soldier? Business man? I think the whole place is so dangerous. Today there was a truck filled with explosives that hurt/killed(?) people. I would be so worried if one of my family went over there.
> But I would prefer not to get all offended and burden anyone with my politics on this board, which was in fact, intended to support.
<I was not offended.
>If I don't feel I need to defend my country or my brother or my religion or anything else important to me, I will refrain.
<Defending assumes that you were being attacked...did you feel attacked? We are all in this together. I hope we can be kind to one another on this site.
Posted by Dinah on December 17, 2003, at 9:23:37
In reply to Re: You?, posted by Jai Narayan on December 17, 2003, at 9:08:22
Thanks, Jai.
My brother is in the military, and tho he hasn't had to go overseas yet (except to Korea), there are always rumors flying. He knew it was a possibility when he signed up, and I have respect for him for being willing to do what he's called to do.
The paragraph I was referring to was:
"uuuhh...i dont think YOU will ever leave as long as there's still at least one drop of oil in iraq's belly to be sucked out.... so, we dont have to worry about that scenario as yet"
I perhaps didn't take it in the spirit it was intended. Perhaps if someone could explain the positive aspects of it, I would be happy to find I was mistaken.
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 17, 2003, at 9:41:29
In reply to Re: Atleast we have some good news.. Saddam captured!, posted by Psychopoppy on December 17, 2003, at 1:23:29
> i dont think YOU will ever leave as long as there's still at least one drop of oil in iraq's belly to be sucked out....
Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused, thanks.
Bob
PS: Follow-ups regarding posting policies, and complaints about posts, should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Posted by DSCH on December 17, 2003, at 12:27:23
In reply to Re: Atleast we have some good news.. Saddam captured!, posted by Psychopoppy on December 17, 2003, at 1:23:29
Is the entire resistence going to fold immediatelty because of Saddam's capture? No. But that doesn't mean that it isn't a step in the right direction. Everyone seems to be wailing that any one thing doesn't solve all the problems in one fell swoop (remember the second week of the invasion "We aren't in Baghdad yet, everythings going wrong!"); as if a Democrat in George Bush's position would bring out a magic wand and make everything better with a bloodless wave of it and make every terrorist in the world love us. Aint gonna happen, people.
Refreshingly commonsensical talk from a self-professed Democrat, Orson Scott Card, sf writer ("Ender's Game" series).
http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110004435
"But then I watch the steady campaign of the national news media to try to win this for the Democrats, and I wonder. Could this insane, self-destructive, extremist-dominated party actually win the presidency? It might--because the media are trying as hard as they can to pound home the message that the Bush presidency is a failure--even though by every rational measure it is not.
And the most vile part of this campaign against Mr. Bush is that the terrorist war is being used as a tool to try to defeat him--which means that if Mr. Bush does not win, we will certainly lose the war. Indeed, the anti-Bush campaign threatens to undermine our war effort, give encouragement to our enemies, and cost American lives during the long year of campaigning that lies ahead of us.
Osama bin Laden's military strategy is: If you make a war cost enough, Americans will give up and go home. Now, bin Laden isn't actually all that bright; his campaign to make us go home is in fact what brought us into Afghanistan and Iraq. But he's still telling his followers: Keep killing Americans and eventually, antigovernment factions within the United States will choose to give up the struggle.
It's what happened in Somalia, isn't it? And it's what happened in Vietnam, too."
My brother was on the staff of the 3rd MAW during the invasion. Two months from now he will be back in western Iraq.
Pardon me, but I must return to nursing on this drum of Halliburton crude. ;-)
Posted by Psychopoppy on December 17, 2003, at 15:58:02
In reply to Re: Atleast we have some good news.. Saddam captured!, posted by Psychopoppy on December 17, 2003, at 1:23:29
The "YOU" I refer to is in response to the "WE" that DSCH wrote (see post below).... and not meant as any one person, nor DSCH, nor anyones' brother in the military.
I feel very sorry for all the soldiers in Iraq since they are just following orders. So, while this christmas, members of the government will sit in their million dollar ranches and palaces and enjoy thousands of dollars worth of christmas celebrations with their families and loved ones in extreme comfort, the soldiers, brothers, sons, sisters, fathers, who are following orders will be fighting and sleeping in bunkers.......
I find that sad.
> > It won't stop attacks. But the most postive impact, IMO, will be to encourage those who were afraid to speak up and act against insurgency in the fear that Saddam would come back to power once WE left.>
> uuuhh...i dont think YOU will ever leave as long as there's still at least one drop of oil in iraq's belly to be sucked out.... so, we dont have to worry about that scenario as yet.
>
>
Posted by Psychopoppy on December 17, 2003, at 16:28:34
In reply to Self-sabotage in America, posted by DSCH on December 17, 2003, at 12:27:23
> Pardon me, but I must return to nursing on this drum of Halliburton crude. ;-)
>My My !....I didn't know you and Dick Cheney were drinking buddies ?!?! ;-)
Posted by Jai Narayan on December 17, 2003, at 20:30:19
In reply to Re: Self-sabotage in America, posted by Psychopoppy on December 17, 2003, at 16:28:34
It's hard when our country (the USA) is built on Capitalism. Anything can and will be turned into a profit. The language goes way beyond even products....collateral damage...etc. It all sounds like property.
I am afraid of where our country is going and what we have done all along. I no longer can listen to the news in any form. I have retreated from taking any action these days.
I am frozen, like a deer in the headlights.
I see it coming and I hope that I run out of the way....but I'm not moving.
I don't know where to run.
This is the end of the thread.
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