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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by slinky on November 15, 2003, at 20:00:26
Or am i just an unhealthy mess.
If i get a day where i do something (when i get energy) afterwards I sleep more than 12 hours and get a cold...I got permanent aches./..i want to do stuff but i just can't.
I've been like this for over 3/4 months??? Oh and my memory is kaput.
Any imputs.?
Posted by slinky on November 15, 2003, at 20:03:00
In reply to can depression evolve into chronic fatigue?, posted by slinky on November 15, 2003, at 20:00:26
...I expect answers to things that have no answers.
Ignore above post.
I've turned into a sloth.
Posted by Destroyo on November 15, 2003, at 20:16:29
In reply to can depression evolve into chronic fatigue?, posted by slinky on November 15, 2003, at 20:00:26
No, YOU aren't to blame for anything! Depressed people are in pain. Being in a state of pain is not conducive to volition and the accomplishment of various and sundry goals. Mental pain is every bit as palpable as physical pain; in fact both sorts of pain are centered in the same region of the brain. Speaking of pain, that pun of yours was so bad that fastening the cables from a Sears Diehard to my testicles would seem like a relaxing professional massage :-)
Posted by slinky on November 15, 2003, at 21:17:41
In reply to Re: can depression evolve into chronic fatigue?, posted by Destroyo on November 15, 2003, at 20:16:29
> No, YOU aren't to blame for anything! Depressed people are in pain. Being in a state of pain is not conducive to volition and the accomplishment of various and sundry goals. Mental pain is every bit as palpable as physical pain; in fact both sorts of pain are centered in the same region of the brain. Speaking of pain, that pun of yours was so bad that fastening the cables from a Sears Diehard to my testicles would seem like a relaxing professional massage :-)
A pun a day keeps serenity at bay.
Toilets are taken for granted...I lived in a house with no toilet and no wash/bathroom..many a graphic memory about bodily functions
...Celebrate the ceramic throne
Posted by Destroyo on November 15, 2003, at 21:26:26
In reply to can depression evolve into chronic fatigue?, posted by slinky on November 15, 2003, at 20:00:26
Many's the time, after too many flagons o' boiling tar, that I have personally prostrated myself before The Temple O' Ralph.
Posted by justyourlaugh on November 15, 2003, at 21:28:45
In reply to can depression evolve into chronic fatigue?, posted by slinky on November 15, 2003, at 20:00:26
sounds like good old depression to me...
why cant they understand we are chained to the resting places..
why cant they understand how we want to "snap out of it"
but mental illness is so totally physical
Posted by slinky on November 15, 2003, at 21:38:42
In reply to Re: can depression evolve into chronic fatigue?, posted by Destroyo on November 15, 2003, at 21:26:26
You have a touch o' the Irish.
Posted by Destroyo on November 15, 2003, at 21:43:33
In reply to can depression evolve into chronic fatigue?, posted by slinky on November 15, 2003, at 20:00:26
Close, Slinky. To use an old Scots-Irish expression, I'm "Touch'd in the Haid".
Posted by slinky on November 15, 2003, at 21:45:09
In reply to Re: can depression evolve into chronic fatigue?, posted by justyourlaugh on November 15, 2003, at 21:28:45
I don't get high or even able to function 'normal'.
I bought some sexy boots ,short skirt, before it's too late , before I dry up.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 15, 2003, at 23:00:11
In reply to Re: can depression evolve into chronic fatigue?, posted by Destroyo on November 15, 2003, at 21:26:26
> Many's the time, after too many flagons o' boiling tar, that I have personally prostrated myself before The Temple O' Ralph.
Driving the Bus? Praying to the Porcelain Goddess? I gave up on that a few years ago.... not good for the mood.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 15, 2003, at 23:04:01
In reply to can depression evolve into chronic fatigue?, posted by slinky on November 15, 2003, at 20:00:26
> Or am i just an unhealthy mess.
You can have both simultaneously, I'm afraid.
> If i get a day where i do something (when i get energy) afterwards I sleep more than 12 hours and get a cold...I got permanent aches./..i want to do stuff but i just can't.
How's your mood? Apart from the fact that being physically incapacitated is depressing, are you otherwise reasonably well, mood-wise? Your sense of humour is still present. I liked your 'memorial to a spider'.
> I've been like this for over 3/4 months??? Oh and my memory is kaput.
> Any imputs.?NADH might work. A clinical trial showed responsiveness in 70% of chronic fatigue patients, if I recall correctly. It worked for me.
Other possible supporting players....TMG (trimethylglycine), and tyrosine.
Posted by Destroyo on November 15, 2003, at 23:39:14
In reply to can depression evolve into chronic fatigue?, posted by slinky on November 15, 2003, at 20:00:26
My dad went to a mental health seminar not long ago (I was not in attendance) at which a doctor railed against depression sufferers for drinking when under his care, To wit: "drinking interferes with the efficacy of the mediacation, and it only makes their condition worse". Well, with all due respect to the good doctor; there's an alternative perspective....consider; do his patients fail to thrive because they drink, or do they drink, because they fail to thrive as the result of his treatments? You're a great guy Larry, you pointed out to one of our numerous sufferers at our forum that "the perfect person" was a myth; that is TIMELESS wisdom. My dad; well, damn, he IS quite literally; perfect, I kid you not. Only thing is, he's also an unpredictable PSYCHO. He's had several wives (my stepmons), but both my sisters, myself, and all his former wives (most of whom that I got along with better than he) will tell you that he has psychotic episodes. Want an example?, He helped me move not long ago, from one location to another, a mere distance of 300 yds. in the same city; My weight tends to fluctuate, so I wanted to keep around 20 diferent pairs o' pants. This set off his psychosis in a most extreme manner. Literally, for FOUR HOURS, we argued; he kept hassling me by repeating the same argument over and over again, to wit: NO ONE NEEDS MORE THAN 7-8 PAIRS OF PANTS! Biz-z-a-r-r-e, That's a classic definition of psychosis....your behavior is totally dysfunctional and innappropriate; yet you're the last one to know. I'm tellin' ya Lar, I live in "interesting times". I love my Dad, but b'God, what am I gonna do. He's a Psycho, and I'm a Schizo. Mental illness, in my family, to use that wonderful ol' Hank William's Jr. Song, is just "An Ol' Family Tradition."
Posted by Sabina on November 16, 2003, at 0:56:56
In reply to Re: can depression evolve into chronic fatigue? » Destroyo, posted by slinky on November 15, 2003, at 21:38:42
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 16, 2003, at 10:17:02
In reply to Howya Doin, Larry?, posted by Destroyo on November 15, 2003, at 23:39:14
In simple reply to the subject line, living the perpetual struggle, one day at a time, thanks, and you?
> My dad went to a mental health seminar not long ago (I was not in attendance) at which a doctor railed against depression sufferers for drinking when under his care, To wit: "drinking interferes with the efficacy of the mediacation, and it only makes their condition worse". Well, with all due respect to the good doctor; there's an alternative perspective....consider; do his patients fail to thrive because they drink, or do they drink, because they fail to thrive as the result of his treatments?
That may well be a false dilemma. Yet another alternative is that the treatments provided are incomplete. One must consider the benefits accruing from alcohol use before one can find more suitable substitutes. The lack of congruence between the effects of alcohol vs. e.g SSRI medication does not invalidate the proposition that alcohol use can both render the medication ineffective and exacerbate the presenting symptoms. I cannot think of a neurotranmsitter that alcohol does not affect; moreover, sleep architecture is disturbed, leading to chronic sleep deprivation, which has its own adverse physiological effects.
> You're a great guy Larry,
Careful, I won't get my head through the door....
> you pointed out to one of our numerous sufferers at our forum that "the perfect person" was a myth; that is TIMELESS wisdom.
My wisdom is hard-won. I might write a book one day.
> My dad; well, damn, he IS quite literally; perfect, I kid you not. Only thing is, he's also an unpredictable PSYCHO. He's had several wives (my stepmons), but both my sisters, myself, and all his former wives (most of whom that I got along with better than he) will tell you that he has psychotic episodes. Want an example?, He helped me move not long ago, from one location to another, a mere distance of 300 yds. in the same city; My weight tends to fluctuate, so I wanted to keep around 20 diferent pairs o' pants. This set off his psychosis in a most extreme manner. Literally, for FOUR HOURS, we argued; he kept hassling me by repeating the same argument over and over again, to wit: NO ONE NEEDS MORE THAN 7-8 PAIRS OF PANTS! Biz-z-a-r-r-e, That's a classic definition of psychosis....your behavior is totally dysfunctional and innappropriate; yet you're the last one to know.
Reading that, psychosis did not come to mind at all. Sound much more like OCD. His inability to come to compromise with you reflects more his innordinate requirement to follow a rule; he quite clearly perceived reality, but his interpretation of it was not rational.
> I'm tellin' ya Lar, I live in "interesting times". I love my Dad, but b'God, what am I gonna do. He's a Psycho, and I'm a Schizo.
Truly? Schizo? You've only spoken of depression (in the posts I've read....I don't read them all).
> Mental illness, in my family, to use that wonderful ol' Hank William's Jr. Song, is just "An Ol' Family Tradition."
Mine too. 100% incidence. Que sera.
Lar
Posted by fallsfall on November 16, 2003, at 10:45:44
In reply to can depression evolve into chronic fatigue?, posted by slinky on November 15, 2003, at 20:00:26
I felt much the same, but for a longer period of time (maybe you can be smarter than I was). There was a stress factor that maintained my total lack of energy - in my case (unfortunately) it was my therapist. When the pain was completely unbearable, I changed to a radically different therapist and started feeling better (i.e. having more energy) almost immediately. With this increased energy my therapist convinced me to talk to my pdoc about reducing meds. I took Lithium for 8+ years, but haven't had any in 6(?) weeks. Now I have even more energy.
Sometimes you need a change.
Posted by Destroyo on November 16, 2003, at 19:01:22
In reply to can depression evolve into chronic fatigue?, posted by slinky on November 15, 2003, at 20:00:26
Personally, I carefully abstained from alcohol when I was trying new medication. Medication, as presently available, doesn't work for everyone, including me, I've tried SCADS of meds and med combos. It would be irresponsible for doctors to sanction drinking alcohol "for effect", and if you love someone, you don't want to see them drink too much. But it can be a little presumptuous and patronizing to tell someone they shouldn't drink, as though that were obvious. For many people, it is not.
RE: Dad's O.C.D. vs. psychosis, well, maybe; he is what he is, and we've all had to deal with him in my family, so putting a name to it really isn't crucial. But he's also very helpful, generous and kind, except when he's having one of these (psychotic?) episodes. I simply looked up "psychosis" in the dictionary, I don't have a DSM-IV handy, I may be wrong. The dictionary definition indicated misbehaviour in which the perpetrator was oblivious to the fact that his behavior was inappropriate. Sounds about right.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 17, 2003, at 6:04:31
In reply to Very Interesting, Larry, posted by Destroyo on November 16, 2003, at 19:01:22
> Personally, I carefully abstained from alcohol when I was trying new medication. Medication, as presently available, doesn't work for everyone, including me, I've tried SCADS of meds and med combos. It would be irresponsible for doctors to sanction drinking alcohol "for effect", and if you love someone, you don't want to see them drink too much. But it can be a little presumptuous and patronizing to tell someone they shouldn't drink, as though that were obvious. For many people, it is not.
When one is depressed, use of a depressant is ill-advised. The issue is one of informed consent, IMHO. The informed part is key. While you cannot apply general rules such that they apply to all people, determining those who would be reasonable exceptions to the rule ought not to be a decision made by preconception. I'm sorry you haven't found the med or combo that helps.....but an informed drinker would know of the various effects on nutrient status imposed by drinking, and in particular, episodes of drinking to excess. There is a very specific form of malnutrition caused by drinking, and it is seldom considered, even by doctors. Everything has a yin and a yang, and you ought not to cherry pick those aspects you wish to consider, and those you wish to ignore.
> RE: Dad's O.C.D. vs. psychosis, well, maybe; he is what he is, and we've all had to deal with him in my family, so putting a name to it really isn't crucial.
It's important if you wish to discuss it with others who have a more concise application of the relevant language. Not meaning to be pedantic, but....if you go to http://www.mentalhealth.com
expand the list on the left by clicking on "disorders"
then right click on the selected disorder, and select "open in a new window" (trust me on that),
you'll find the American (DSM) and European (ICD-10) definitions for each disorder, diagnostic assistance (usually), research, and treatment options. The treatment options can be very revealing, as they can include cognitive-behavioural approaches to coping with the disorder. What it's like to live it, in other words.> But he's also very helpful, generous and kind, except when he's having one of these (psychotic?) episodes. I simply looked up "psychosis" in the dictionary, I don't have a DSM-IV handy, I may be wrong. The dictionary definition indicated misbehaviour in which the perpetrator was oblivious to the fact that his behavior was inappropriate. Sounds about right.
There's much more to psychosis than that.
What I heard you say was that your father was fixated on a number of pants, a limiting number. He seemed to know just what pants are for, and those pants did not have qualities that pants do not normally have. He seemed to attach no inordinate character to those pants. The issue you focussed on was the number thereof. The unreasonableness of the rule, the eight pant limit, suggests that he had an emotional and cognitive need to find peace within himself by accepting the need to apply the rule in all cases.... That's not psychotic. That's obsessive. His obsession compelled him to try and change his perceived interaction with your pants (and with you, by necessity)....by reducing the number of pants you retained. That's compulsion. In my perhaps not so humble opinion, the disorder lies in the spectrum of depressive mood disorders; those who are first and second degree relatives (like yourself) may express the same genetic influences with different symptoms, e.g. frank depression.
Sorry, I didn't mean to lecture, but you're obviously a bright and well-read chap. I hope you take seriously the issue of "informed" as I raised it; there is much an informed patient can do to influence the success of treatment. It's not only the doctors' responsibility.
How many therapists does it take to change a light bulb?
Only one, but the light bulb must sincerely want to change.
Lar
Posted by slinky on November 17, 2003, at 19:28:15
In reply to Re: can depression evolve into chronic fatigue? » slinky, posted by Larry Hoover on November 15, 2003, at 23:04:01
Hi Lar....good to see you on social
NADA? I'll look at the site where i get my suppliments i have heard of it.
. been mostly miserable--sleeping.
It feels like i'm always stuck in the early symptoms of flu..
Raw garlic helps with fatigue--but not with my lovelife.
Probably more than you needed to know...
Posted by slinky on November 17, 2003, at 19:31:00
In reply to Re: Gramachree ma cruiscin lan (nm) » slinky, posted by Sabina on November 16, 2003, at 0:56:56
and I'm too dense to work out the title.
Posted by slinky on November 17, 2003, at 19:38:38
In reply to Re: can depression evolve into chronic fatigue? » slinky, posted by fallsfall on November 16, 2003, at 10:45:44
I'think' it's the effexor(i'm still on 75mg)the prozac that helps i think has made it more potent.
Efexor for me is very sedating.
I think i got sinusitis--making my blocked head tired.
my muscles have gone...molusks! and so have my orgasms..
Strange sub-board-ination.
I'm probably not making sense
--whatever:-)
This is the end of the thread.
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