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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on October 19, 2003, at 9:31:09
In reply to Re: Boasting about Drug abuse MamaB » MamaB, posted by NikkiT2 on October 19, 2003, at 8:57:54
> For a start, I'm not American.
>
> I'm sorry, but I still don't understand.. You are saying that what ever someone says to me, I shouldn't have any feelings about it.. Does this go for good feelings, or do you only think we have control over our bad feelings??
>
> I think I would be a very cold, awful person if I had no feelings about other people, or no feelings at how their actions affected me.
>
> And I do think, long and hard, about how I feel from other peoples actions. But you cannot, in my opinion, feel nothing when someone is being nasty to you or what ever. Its human to feel stuff. Maybe a tortoise doesn't feel stuff when someone attacks them, but it is human nature to feel. They've even shown it in primates, that the way they are treated by the rest of their group affects they way they act and behave.
>
>Hi Nikki,
This reminds me of a story with my therapist, who is also fond of that saying. This was a few years back, before he just gave up and started being honest with me.
He was angry with me for something I was doing, and he kept saying no, he wasn't angry (with his voice getting louder and louder). I finally pointed out the incongruence of shouting that he wasn't angry. So he admitted to being frustrated, but assured me that it wasn't my fault. That his feelings were his own and his own choice and responsibility. So we argued for a long while about that one, how what I was doing or saying was the cause of his "frustration" no matter how he chose to describe the process. And he just wouldn't admit that I was causing his "frustration". So I asked him very politely, that if that were true, to please choose to feel another emotion.
Which, I suppose, he did. Because he started laughing and we were able to get back to sensible talk.
Posted by NikkiT2 on October 19, 2003, at 11:35:11
In reply to Re: Boasting about Drug abuse MamaB » NikkiT2, posted by Dinah on October 19, 2003, at 9:31:09
I get the theory.. I really do.. but I don't believe it works in practice.
As an example, if my husband were to leave me, it would be his actions causing me mental pain, and bad feelings. I don't think it would be possible to decide not to be hurt by this.
Do you agree though, that if everyone just didn't feel anything from other peoples actions, we would all be very hard, cold people??
My husband telling me he loves me gives me good feelings. My husband telling me he is angry at me, gives me bad feelings. I don't believe this is something I can simply switch off and no longer have feelings caused by other people. I don't choose to be hurt by this, I believe it is human nature to be concerned about how others we care about feel about us.Anyway.. I'm off to bed for a bit.. bad bad day
Nikki x
Posted by madwand on October 19, 2003, at 12:20:58
In reply to Re: Boasting about Drug abuse MamaB » Dinah, posted by NikkiT2 on October 19, 2003, at 11:35:11
I find this a fascinating area. When I am in the position of possibly affecting someone else's feelings I prefer to err on the side of benevolence wherever possible. That is not because I believe I "owe" it to the other person or that I believe I am responsible for that other person's emotions, but rather it is a metaphysical/spiritual committment; i.e. to "less pain" in the universe. I believe that by choosing to live and act in that manner I ultimately decrease the pain in my own life (by the operation of metaphysical law).
It is amazing, though, how much harder that is than it appears. Although we sometimes quibble over various PBCs and blocks (I know I do!), one of the gifts of this site and its ground rules is its invitation to re-examine ways in which you might make others feel bad. There have been quite a few times I have started out scratching my head over a particular PBC and then realizing, "Hey, he has a point".
However, when I am on the other side of the fence I try to approach things the way MamaB described. If I believe that the person who "hurt" me is on the same wavelength I am I will try to convey to them that what they said/did was hurtful, but hopefully with an "I" statement in which I own my reaction (And I do this perfectly.
If you believe that, I have a bridge...).
While we could dispute on a philosophical level whether or not that person "made me" feel something, I believe that is less relevant than the personal choice we make. When I say/think, "you made me feel...", I feel like a victim -- a little kid asking the bully not to hurt him. When I *choose* to own the bad feeling I still feel bad, but it is empowering. Rather than feeling like a victim I am reminded that the reaction is ultimately mine, and by doing so I am one step closer to diminishing it (if *you* have the power you can diminish it -- if someone else has the power you are dependent on them to "stop it"). And even if I am in pain and can't manage to "think" that way, saying the words helps. I.e., it may seem artifical sometimes, but exerting a discipline over your choice of words *can* alter your thinking. Sometimes it is a long process, but most of the time I notice how much better I feel just by choosing that way to say it.But I agree that people can and do use it is a put down; i.e., "You feel bad therefore it is your fault" and that some therapists end up doing that. Perhaps the way they should phrase it similar to the above. Not "you're doing something wrong" but as invitation to the person to take back their power.
BTW, another example might be the "paradox" of the 12 Steps of recovery. We start out by letting ourselves off the hook; i.e. accepting that we have a disease (as oppose to being a bad person) over which we are powerless. But as we progress through the steps and reach the amends steps we put ourselves back on the hook. A contradiction?
Not really. Having been absolved of our crimes due to our powerlessness, we deliberately "choose" to make amends for them and thus we are given our power back!
Anyway, I have rambled on enough but hopefully it make some sense. It isn't a matter of which way is the "right" way to look at our emotions but which way we "choose" to look at them and which choice is more empowering.Michael
Posted by Susan J on October 19, 2003, at 12:28:51
In reply to Re: Boasting about Drug abuse MamaB » NikkiT2, posted by Dinah on October 19, 2003, at 9:31:09
I personally am affected by just about everything someone says, for better or worse. My therapist told me no emotion is wrong, it's what you *do* with it that matters. That concept is not directly related to this, but it reinforces the idea in me that we cannot control our emotional reaction to what other people do or say. We can control our *behavioral* reaction, but emotions are not so controllable. I guess some people can do that, I can't.
For goodness' sake, I saw a raccoon that had just been killed on the side of the road last night, and *that* makes me sad! If someone I cared about or respected said something bad to me, I'd be hurt! Period.
Susan
Posted by NikkiT2 on October 19, 2003, at 12:50:58
In reply to Re: Boasting about Drug abuse MamaB, posted by Susan J on October 19, 2003, at 12:28:51
Thats it.. I can and do control my behavoural response.. but I do strongly feel that emotional response is so much harder to control, and not something 90% of people are able to do. If something hurts you, it hurts you. I don't believe anyone that says they never feel any hurt as they don't allow themselves to, what ever the circumstances.
Its like saying, if someone you love dies, you can choose not feel upset by it or to grieve in my eyes.
*shrugs* Maybe I am just a freak
Nikki
Posted by Dinah on October 19, 2003, at 13:06:15
In reply to Re: Boasting about Drug abuse MamaB » Dinah, posted by NikkiT2 on October 19, 2003, at 11:35:11
Nawww, Nikki. I'm with you. Feelings are what they are. I'm not sure they're ever a "choice". We might be able to choose what to concentrate on, and I often say that I choose to see something as being an amusing quirk, for example.
Feelings are frequently triggered by someone else's actions. Sometimes quite rightly so, and they serve as valuable information to us about other people or situations. Sometimes the feelings have more to do with our prior associations, etc. than the actual actions of a person or a situation. I think it's good to know the difference.
I think half of my problems come from my attempts to choose what I feel instead of choosing what to do with my feelings.
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 19, 2003, at 14:00:58
In reply to Re: Boasting about Drug abuse MamaB » NikkiT2, posted by Dinah on October 19, 2003, at 9:31:09
Re: Directed my reply to you to social Nikki2
Posted by MamaB on October 19, 2003, at 11:13:50
In reply to http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20031008/msgs/270781.html
Nikki et al,
http://neuro.psyc.memphis.edu/NeuroPsyc/np-ugp-emotiont.htm
Try this website, you will see just how many "theories"of emotion there have been over time. I follow both my training and my gut when in a theraputic situation. In this business one must frequently fly by the seat of the pants. But as a musician friend of mine once said; "It takes a lot of rehersal to be spontaneous".
Oh, I dont expect you to READ everything on that website,(although of course you can if you so desire) I only send it along demonstrate how many theories of emotion have been postulated. MamaB
Posted by MamaB on October 19, 2003, at 14:11:34
In reply to Re: Boasting about Drug abuse MamaB » Susan J, posted by NikkiT2 on October 19, 2003, at 12:50:58
You have all made some interesting points. Thanks
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 20, 2003, at 8:27:51
In reply to Re: Boasting about Drug abuse MamaB » NikkiT2, posted by Dinah on October 19, 2003, at 9:31:09
Re: Boasting about Drug abuse Nikki
Posted by shar on October 19, 2003, at 17:01:51
In reply to http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20031008/msgs/270755.html
Nikki,
I think what MB is getting at is if we could MAKE people feel a certain way, we would undoubtedly make them feel happy and content and serene.This does not mean that what people say to us doesn't have an effect on us. However, there are a lot of people who, when confronted by negative input will choose (maybe because they were brought up that way) to think "god, that person is nuts!" Which, in many cases, is the case, imho.
There are things we feel hurt about, and those closest to us have the most "ammo" to invite us to feel worthless (which we may have learned at a very young age), or stupid, or...whatever. There are choices we can make if we know what our triggers are.
By the same token, there are things we feel bad about just because they are. The loss of someone close, the death of a beloved friend. We will feel bad about that, and that seems less of a choice to me. We miss them, we grieve.
I personally do not feel I can "make" a person feel a certain way. As I said earlier, if I had that power, I would make everyone happy. However, if I know someone's "soft spots" and jab them there, I will probably know they will feel hurt. That, thank goodness, is not my agenda. But, with some people it is their agenda, to hurt, to jab, to poke.
I believe it comes down to a difference--one person feels one way, one person feels another. And (thru 20+ years of therapy) if we can accept the differences, and hold onto ourselves during an assault, we can see that it is the other person who is attacking, and we don't necessarily have to buy what they are saying. To me. accepting differences (you see it one way, I see it another) is of utmost importance in relationships.
xoxo
Shar
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 20, 2003, at 9:46:42
In reply to Re: Boasting about Drug abuse » Nikki « shar, posted by Dr. Bob on October 20, 2003, at 8:27:51
I'm sorry, but I felt a need to rename the thread....
> Nikki,
> I think what MB is getting at is if we could MAKE people feel a certain way, we would undoubtedly make them feel happy and content and serene.We can create a momentum one way or the other, but we can't determine the final product.
> This does not mean that what people say to us doesn't have an effect on us. However, there are a lot of people who, when confronted by negative input will choose (maybe because they were brought up that way) to think "god, that person is nuts!" Which, in many cases, is the case, imho.Many people believe that an event, e.g. words spoken, behaviour observed, leads directly to an emotive response, the feelings. I think that model is incorrect. Learning to recognize that model is incorrect is part of gaining control over the process itself.
Symbolically, the event leading to feeling model can be represented as E --> F. The correct (IMHO) version, however, is E + I --> F. The I stands for interpretation.
Our brain will bring to bear the net effects of our past experiences, assumptions, expectations, attitudes, beliefs, social indoctrination, etc. etc., so that an observed event is interpreted a particular way, and our feeling will then reflect the interpretation. Two people viewing the same event can have absolutely opposite feelings arising, and the only way to explain that is through different interpretations.
Unless you recognize that you're interpreting those things you observe, you have no power over the flow towards emotive response. Gaining control over that processing step is a significant part of what we call cognitive-behavioural therapy. Going back to my symbolical representation, it's recognizing that the only place I have any control is over the "I" in the middle (congruence with the Serenity Prayer intentional).
> There are things we feel hurt about, and those closest to us have the most "ammo" to invite us to feel worthless (which we may have learned at a very young age), or stupid, or...whatever. There are choices we can make if we know what our triggers are.In common usage today is the phrase "He was pushing my buttons", or similar. It's often used to deflect responsibility. Certainly, the button pusher is most often aware of the button pushing going on, but whose buttons are they? And, why would someone with buttons leave them exposed so that anyone in the world can push them at will?
I once had a sponsee who had a violent relationship with his wife. In his view, she would "wind him up by pushing his buttons" until he'd end up smacking her. Then she'd beat him to a pulp, and he'd end up in the hospital. I had to teach him how to disconnect his buttons. That's something in his power, and only his. I used a visual representation, of a telephone keypad. It was like she knew his phone number. 555-1212 and violence erupted. I told him to change the phone number, and get an unlisted one. The buttons wouldn't do the same thing any more. That's the simplified version, but it worked for him.
> By the same token, there are things we feel bad about just because they are. The loss of someone close, the death of a beloved friend. We will feel bad about that, and that seems less of a choice to me. We miss them, we grieve.
We're still interpreting the event, the death. Most may feel grief, but some may feel relief, others anger, and so on, based on individual interpretation. Some feelings seem to be "universal", by which I mean they don't seem to require explanation, but that speaks more to what I would call being human, rather than to insight into the process leading to feelings themselves.
> I personally do not feel I can "make" a person feel a certain way. As I said earlier, if I had that power, I would make everyone happy.
Thank you for having that attitude. :-)
> However, if I know someone's "soft spots" and jab them there, I will probably know they will feel hurt. That, thank goodness, is not my agenda. But, with some people it is their agenda, to hurt, to jab, to poke.
Yes, sadly true.
> I believe it comes down to a difference--one person feels one way, one person feels another. And (thru 20+ years of therapy) if we can accept the differences, and hold onto ourselves during an assault, we can see that it is the other person who is attacking, and we don't necessarily have to buy what they are saying.
If I may restate that as "we don't have to interpret the event the way they want us to"...
> To me, accepting differences (you see it one way, I see it another) is of utmost importance in relationships.
>
> xoxo
> SharExcellent conclusion. Thanks, Shar.
Regards,
Lar
Posted by Dinah on October 20, 2003, at 10:47:53
In reply to Re: making people feel... (Shar), posted by Larry Hoover on October 20, 2003, at 9:46:42
Lar, you're a great guy. But I'm suspecting you're not one of the flaming amygdala gang. :)
Posted by MamaB on October 20, 2003, at 11:34:42
In reply to Re: Boasting about Drug abuse » Nikki « shar, posted by Dr. Bob on October 20, 2003, at 8:27:51
Shar,
Thank you for being a voice of reason. For a while there I was getting the feeling that I was the only one who believed this. You put into words quite well. Thanks
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 20, 2003, at 13:15:43
In reply to Re: making people feel... » Larry Hoover, posted by Dinah on October 20, 2003, at 10:47:53
> Lar, you're a great guy.
Flattery will get you.....somewhere. ;-)
Lar
Posted by jay on October 20, 2003, at 18:55:40
In reply to Re: Boasting about Drug abuse MamaB » NikkiT2, posted by Dinah on October 19, 2003, at 9:31:09
MamaB wrote:
>Nikki,
>I was not saying anything about choice with >clinical depression, no, that certainly is not a >choice. However when you feel angry at your >husband its "I felt angry what he said or did." >Not, "He made me so angry" or "What he did made >me angry." His person and or actions may arouse >the FEELINGS in you; but the anger itself comes >from within you (or me).
>It's the way we North Americans have fallen into >a bad habit in speech that turns out to be an >error in psychological functioning! I >occasionally still do that also, and I get paid >NOT TO DO THAT SORT OF THING! (And I am not even >a native born American!)
>I hope that clears it up. The next time you have >a strong emotion, try to stop and think about >it.
Yes, that is classic CBT type of modeling, and it's all nice and hygienic, but it's only *one* of many interpretations. It doesn't mean it is the only *correct* way of thinking.Jay
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