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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by lil' jimi on September 4, 2003, at 10:28:11
http://www.cognitiveliberty.org/neuro/neuronewswk.htm
opinions ?
~ jim
p.s. nice ones, please ... i'm trying to be a buddhist here, okay ? ... ... ... <insert winking Emoticon > !
p.p.s. it was decided this would be posted here because it wasn't supportive enough for pBab Faith ...~ j
Posted by Dinah on September 4, 2003, at 10:42:49
In reply to neurotheology, posted by lil' jimi on September 4, 2003, at 10:28:11
Gotta disagree with Dr. Bob on this one. Wouldn't the findings fit in perfectly with the Wesleyan idea of prevenient grace?
Posted by lil' jimi on September 4, 2003, at 11:36:28
In reply to Re: neurotheology » lil' jimi, posted by Dinah on September 4, 2003, at 10:42:49
> Gotta disagree with Dr. Bob on this one. Wouldn't the findings fit in perfectly with the Wesleyan idea of prevenient grace? >
... i believe you have a point
... shouldn't we have respect for the devout Neurotheologians' faith, too ...
... who is to say that The Lord thy God does not speak to us through our neurotransmitters?
... this isn't even likely?
... as if there's other ways we could be spoken to ...?... so, next stop, Administration, now?
... i had wanted it to be at Faith, because i was going to be all buddhist about this, see ? ...
... but before we get redirected ...
thanks for the inspiration to look up "Wesleyan idea of prevenient grace" ...
http://www.revneal.org/Writings/WesArmin.htm
... seems pertinent to me, too ...... i was looking at it as a form of pantheism
... pantheism is a faith ... i hope ... !
~ jim
Posted by Dinah on September 4, 2003, at 12:46:39
In reply to re: neurotheology » Dinah, posted by lil' jimi on September 4, 2003, at 11:36:28
A fine example of the power of headlines. Either "God, Is he all in your head?" or "John Wesley - a man of inspiration; Scientific proof for prevenient grace!"
Posted by Gabbix2 on September 4, 2003, at 13:02:03
In reply to re: neurotheology » lil' jimi, posted by Dinah on September 4, 2003, at 12:46:39
Makes me want a bumper sticker that says.
"My darwin fish can beat up your theology student"
Posted by Gabbix2 on September 4, 2003, at 13:07:55
In reply to re: neurotheology » Dinah, posted by Gabbix2 on September 4, 2003, at 13:02:03
Seriously though, as you said I do wonder where they got the fixed notion that the two are mutually exclusive. Prats!
Posted by Tabitha on September 4, 2003, at 13:11:28
In reply to neurotheology, posted by lil' jimi on September 4, 2003, at 10:28:11
Fascinating. To me the brain-state study only validates the experiences.
Nice to see you here on social Jimi
What do you mean by being all buddhist about it? What would the buddhist response be?
Posted by Liligoth on September 4, 2003, at 20:34:24
In reply to neurotheology, posted by lil' jimi on September 4, 2003, at 10:28:11
hey thanks for posting that link - the article was fascinating! I also try to be a buddhist
Posted by lil' jimi on September 4, 2003, at 21:11:43
In reply to Re: neurotheology, posted by Tabitha on September 4, 2003, at 13:11:28
hi Tabitha,
> Fascinating. To me the brain-state study only validates the experiences. >
here, here ... i'll drink to that!
And !
How come evolution doesn't Prove creation ?>
> Nice to see you here on social Jimi >thank you! ... it's nice to be so nicely seen ... ... i also do some faith too ... but i still have a weak place for the lex thread ...
>
> What do you mean by being all buddhist about it? What would the buddhist response be? >i don't know really ... that was mostly buddhist bluster brought on by getting "sent" here from faith ... i can work myself up into a buddhist lather and then just see who can dance to the dharma 2-step ... ... i was going to wing it ... ... not real buddhistic of me .
... shouldn't neurotheists' faith be a respected belief system? ... mercury Was posting about "prescription enlightenment" ... i'd 'ave thought neuotheology would have been right up his alley ... that's if Merc were still around ...
so we may give our Dr. Bob the credit for this visit to social ... but it is because neurotheology doesn't get the credit to rate being at faith ...
(and with a lot of bluster, he goes, "Hurrumph!!")
maybe i got it out of my system now ....
~ jim
Posted by lil' jimi on September 4, 2003, at 21:19:25
In reply to re: neurotheology » Dinah, posted by Gabbix2 on September 4, 2003, at 13:02:03
> Makes me want a bumper sticker that says.
> "My darwin fish can beat up your theology student"
>
>
>totally _Word Up_, momma!
awesome!
print 'em up and ship 'em!how about:
"My Darwin Fish paid the way for your Theology Student!"
... ... nah ... doesn't have the impact ..."Your Theology Student IS a Darwin Fish!"
~ jim
Posted by lil' jimi on September 4, 2003, at 21:47:52
In reply to Re: neurotheology, posted by Liligoth on September 4, 2003, at 20:34:24
hi Liligoth,
> hey thanks for posting that link - the article was fascinating! I also try to be a buddhist >
you're welcome!
glad you enjoyed it ... i'm still taking it chunks at a time ...... and welcome, fellow dharma student and comrade in 'trying to be a buddhist' ...
... ... i should found the 'trying to be buddhism' sect ... except all buddhism is the trying to be kind ... i'd say... come over and visit pBab Faith sometime ... i've put up lots of buddhist signs, posts, wild ideas ... well, i'm working on the wild ideas' part ... ... but i have got to be the only buddhist there ... and decent company could at least start telling me where i'm all wrong ... ... i'd hope!
of course If we Were to try to share our faith ?
KaBoom! ... we will get re-directed back to faith ...
... (psst! ... it is Not Really that bad! ... i'm just whining ... not serious ... )but i really would love to hear about your tradition!
... ... i dig the Nyingmapa and Lama Pema Norbu and the (everyone's bored with this one) Bodhisattva Manjushri ... ... but don't get me started! .... HA!bliss,
~ jim
Posted by habbyshabit on September 4, 2003, at 22:35:39
In reply to re: neurotheology » Liligoth, posted by lil' jimi on September 4, 2003, at 21:47:52
Hey Jimbo,
I'd vote for this being on the faith board too. Surprised by Dr. Bob's response. Oh well, You sure are getting more replies then if it had been on faith. There is more then one way to get the "word" out, eh?
The following are the pargraphs from that long article that pretty much said it all for me. So for those who didn't read the link - here is the short of it.
"Remembrances of pies past (Grandma's kitchen, the corner bake shop ...) activate association cortices. A neuroscientist with too much time on his hands could undoubtedly produce a PET scan of "your brain on apple pie." But that does not negate the reality of the pie. "The fact that spiritual experiences can be associated with distinct neural activity does not necessarily mean that such experiences are mere neurological illusions," Newberg insists. "It's no safer to say that spiritual urges and sensations are caused by brain activity than it is to say that the neurological changes through which we experience the pleasure of eating an apple cause the apple to exist.""The bottom line, he says, is that "there is no way to determine whether the neurological changes associated with spiritual experience mean that the brain is causing those experiences ... or is instead perceiving a spiritual reality."
"Those most open to mystical experience tend also to be open to new experiences generally. They are usually creative and innovative, with a breadth of interests and a tolerance for ambiguity (as determined by questionnaire)."
"it is likely that they will never resolve the greatest question of all-namely, whether our brain wiring creates God, or whether God created our brain wiring. Which you believe is, in the end, a matter of faith."Or, as in my case - a lack of faith!
Thanks for that link Jim, it was fascinating.Hab
Posted by lil' jimi on September 5, 2003, at 13:59:32
In reply to re: neurotheology - lil'jimi rimpoche, posted by habbyshabit on September 4, 2003, at 22:35:39
hey Habby !
it is special to me that you found us over here ... because the article, to me, is so You ... i think about you when i even think about the article ... ... you know what i mean?
you wrote me:
> Hey Jimbo,
>
> I'd vote for this being on the faith board too. Surprised by Dr. Bob's response. Oh well, You sure are getting more replies then if it had been on faith. There is more then one way to get the "word" out, eh? >you know, you make an excellent point!
... some folks shirk that ol' Faith board like they're shirking going to church or something
... ... being at Social is like going public ...
... HA!
... and i LOVED your selection and digest here:> The following are the pargraphs from that long article that pretty much said it all for me. So for those who didn't read the link - here is the short of it.
>
>
> "Remembrances of pies past (Grandma's kitchen, the corner bake shop ...) activate association cortices. A neuroscientist with too much time on his hands could undoubtedly produce a PET scan of "your brain on apple pie." But that does not negate the reality of the pie. "The fact that spiritual experiences can be associated with distinct neural activity does not necessarily mean that such experiences are mere neurological illusions," Newberg insists. "It's no safer to say that spiritual urges and sensations are caused by brain activity than it is to say that the neurological changes through which we experience the pleasure of eating an apple cause the apple to exist."
>
> "The bottom line, he says, is that "there is no way to determine whether the neurological changes associated with spiritual experience mean that the brain is causing those experiences ... or is instead perceiving a spiritual reality."
>
>
> "Those most open to mystical experience tend also to be open to new experiences generally. They are usually creative and innovative, with a breadth of interests and a tolerance for ambiguity (as determined by questionnaire)."
>
>
> "it is likely that they will never resolve the greatest question of all-namely, whether our brain wiring creates God, or whether God created our brain wiring. Which you believe is, in the end, a matter of faith."
>
> Or, as in my case - a lack of faith! >that's wonderful! ... it's even better with your context!
> Thanks for that link Jim, it was fascinating. >
i think i may depend on you to know just how very much i enjoyed providing it to you ... ... it's made me happy!
i'd love to hear more of your thoughts about it ... ... i find it validating of the spiritual perspective as it is of the physicalist perspective ... ... no ?
... ... you know, what with Faith's requirement we be supportive of everybody's faith(s) ... ... this should be a better venue for your "i have lack-of-faith" type subject(s) ... ... it has to be less touchy here about people's religious sensitivities, albeit still within the bounds of civility ... ... and the foot traffic is much better ...
... figure if we were to get too 'faith-y', we'd get kicked back into church ... er, i mean Faith ?
... ... HA !peace,
~ jim
Posted by lil' jimi on September 5, 2003, at 14:15:42
In reply to Re: neurotheology, posted by Tabitha on September 4, 2003, at 13:11:28
hi Tabby!
> What would the buddhist response be? >
...since we last spoke i have uncovered
... well,
how about this:
http://www.cognitiveliberty.org/neuro/Dalai_lama_brain.html... i would love to hear what everyone thought ...
thank you,
~ jim
Posted by Tabitha on September 5, 2003, at 15:18:07
In reply to H.H. the Dalai Lama » Tabitha, posted by lil' jimi on September 5, 2003, at 14:15:42
Another interesting article. Thanks Jimi.
That stuff about the 'emotional set point', does that mean us anxious/depressive types can just give up trying to be happier? You know, like folks with a little weight problem can just stop dieting and accept their natural state? Ahh, wouldn't that be a relief.
But then... that stuff about mindfulness training makes me think.. just a little more work, keep working, work, work, work, happiness is out there... work work work. Ugh.
Posted by Dinah on September 5, 2003, at 17:25:48
In reply to Re: H.H. the Dalai Lama » lil' jimi, posted by Tabitha on September 5, 2003, at 15:18:07
Posted by lil' jimi on September 6, 2003, at 5:54:12
In reply to Re: H.H. the Dalai Lama » lil' jimi, posted by Tabitha on September 5, 2003, at 15:18:07
hi Tabitha,
> Another interesting article. Thanks Jimi. >
my pleasure ... glad you enjoyed it.
> That stuff about the 'emotional set point', does that mean us anxious/depressive types can just give up trying to be happier? You know, like folks with a little weight problem can just stop dieting and accept their natural state? Ahh, wouldn't that be a relief. >
my interpretation, and i have only seen what you have seen in this article about this research, is that davidson's work suggests we each would have a setting or a point to which our emotional balance is set, perhaps analogously to the way an air conditioning system has a control thermosat which can be set to particular temperature settings ... as if some of us are set too hot and some set to cool ...
... (no mention was suggested of adversity from being too far to the left ... interesting) ...i would interpret this set point as a predilection of our biology, which does not change itself from major trauma(s), apparently ...
... but davidson tells us that it can be adjusted with meditative efforts... ... one wants to see double-blind clinical trails of randomly selected individuals from a group of depressed patients comparing davidson's mindfulness traing meditators to non-meditators who are encouraged to just quietly sit and think about adjusting one's emotional set point
... ... ... "To the left!
... ... ... To the left!
... ... ... to the LEFT!!
.... to THE LEFT !!
.... .... LEFT !!!! ... LLEEFFFTT!!!!" ...... (sorry 'bout that )
... ( ... oh, not really ... ... !)> But then... that stuff about mindfulness training makes me think.. just a little more work, keep working, work, work, work, happiness is out there... work work work. Ugh. >
well, i'm up for the mindfulness training, work or no work, but that's me ... and i'm a buddhist ...
... (for our friends out there ... who have heard me making much of me and this buddhism i'm into ... ... don't take me too seriously, please ... ... i'm at least twice (?) as into buddhism since i've been on lexapro, than i was before i started lexapro ... ... that's _my_ "neurotheology" for you .... .... draw your own conclusions and please? ... share them with us ... would you?)
okay, i'm trying to be a buddhist ... and mindfulness is one of the Folds of the Eightfold Path ... ... so that's an instant sell to every buddhist because each of the Folds of the 8fold Path are ...
... they're like merit badges where you collect all eight of them and you get enlightened ...
... HA!
... (since we're at Social, i can be trivializing the sacred insights without being sacrilegious ... well, i am being sacrilegious, but in a good way ! ... maybe) ... where was i ?Mindfulness
... oh, yeah ... mindfulness ... yeah
... so, davidson's selling tickets to one eighth of the way to NIRVANA !!!
... <calm down! chant that buddhist thing, man!>
... i'm calm ... i'm calm!... sorry, sorry ... i get ... carried away ... sometimes ... ... it's the lex talking .... sorry there ... ... HA!
anyway, i figure i can't really go into the Eightfold Path without schooching us back on over to Faith ... ... or dare to bring on the Wrath of the really-not-so-wrathful Powers of ReDirection ...
... but your comment did make me recall Warren Zevon's ol' chestnut, (which you may not treasure from your childhood as i do ... you may!) which goes:
"Sweat and Muscle and Jungle Work !"
"Sweat and Muscle and Jungle Work !"
"Sweat and Muscle and Jungle Work !"
... then there's something about "battle in hell ... " ? ... ... but i digress... anyway, if i going to have to meditate ...
(Oh, Yeah! ... _Meditation_ is another of the sacred Folds! ... maybe we get to get a FOURTH of the Way to nirvana! ... WahROOOOOOOO !<uh, "werewolves of london"?>)
... anyway! ... if i have to meditate some AND i get to get off med (i only take lex) and be kinda sorta pretty like happy-ish ... ... sounds like a bargain to me!
... which in no way, except directly, brings me to my next point:
What IS this deal with ekman's research into these "micro facial expressions" ??
is this spooky to anybody else beside me ?
and
we are supposed to learn to see these and control them ??
did i get _that_ right?is ekman just trying to freak me out here? ... c'mon!
anybody got a line on this one ... please, let me hear from you ...bliss,
~ jimp.s.
uh, the other 6 folds? (they're like 'aspects')
besides mindfulness and
meditation (aka "concentration") are
views
intentions
speech
action
livelihood
effort
...
you just put the word "Right" in front of each one ... that's the 8fold Path... ~ j
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