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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 4 of 4. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 15, 2003, at 22:44:45
In reply to Redirect: medical profession or drug companies, posted by Dr. Bob on August 14, 2003, at 18:29:49
Re: serious exchange desired » jlo820
Posted by Ima on August 15, 2003, at 21:16:10
In reply to http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030812/msgs/250855.html
> jlo
> You keep questioning the chemical imbalances in people's brains - If you can offer a better theory on which scientists and doctors can treat depression>
IM the one looking for answers.
Im really not trying to put any one down on this site. My questions may be controversial but my intentions are honest.
I know many people who claim to feel a tremendous help from Ads. But I also know people who feel abused by the methods pdocs use and the medicines.(including me)
> Also, let's not kid ourselves, opiates are not a SAFER choice to treat depression that anti-depressant medication.I ve done the research, at least about opiates.Ive talked to a number of doctors and they have all told me I sound fine, even the pdoc I went to. Im not interested in kidding myself, believe me. Less than 1% of people on pain meds (for non malignant chronic pain )end up with abuse problems. A statistic that suprised even me. Hydrocodone and oxycodone are taken by an incredible (frightning) number of people in this contry. Possible only surpassed by the number of people on ADS (thats a quess) :) I know people in far worse pain and on far harsher pain meds than me who have steel rods in their backs. If not for the meds their lives would be unlivable. So I feel as strongly about this subject as you do about ADS.
I have other problems that because of my exposure to pain meds have have come into sharper view. I have lived with depression 30 years. Once I went on the pain meds and then off them for a couple of months I realized I didnt have to (or no longer wanted to) live with the mental pain.Ive sought help but have felt more confused and misquided than anything. The answers I get about meds seem self serving. When I related that the neurontin (I could tolerate for sleep) made me feel like a zombie if I took it during the day the pdoc said that was just my depression. Having lived with it 30 years I know what my depression feels like. When I said that she backed down. But thats the kind of thing that makes me nervous. Any complaining and Im in denial? Any way Im glad you feel safe. Ive been to so many docs. Its hard to keep going.
>
> Your cynicism is bordering on irrationality,One of the good things I heard from one of the psychotherapist Ive been to is that my feelings are very normal considering the tramatic experiences Ive had with docs. That was a relief to hear but it doesnt change that docs are the ones I have to trust about mind altering medication. Thats why Im here. I want to share my concerns with people who've had them. And Ive done alot of reading about different ADS but there is so much hype.
So here I am!
Sorry this post is so long and
Im sorry if Ive put you on the defensive.
peace
Ima--
Re: serious exchange desired
Posted by jlo820 on August 15, 2003, at 21:52:15
In reply to Re: serious exchange desired » jlo820, posted by Ima on August 15, 2003, at 21:16:10
We are just trying to help you understand. Sometimes it seems like you are wearing blinders, and that you are really not interested in what others have to say. It appears that you have already made up your mind and have come here to trash the medicines. If that is not the case, I guess the problem is just how you present your argument.
Now that you have stated that you have been through trauma with Doctors, some of your posts and your thinking makes more sense.
Good luck with your problems.
--
Re: General comments » linkadge
Posted by Ima on August 15, 2003, at 22:11:25
In reply to http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030812/msgs/251053.html
Thank you for your kind respose.
> Actually not sleeping for a week before final exams is not a common/normal responce in universities/college.
Maybe you are right to say it is not normal but it is seems to me not an unusal response to stress. Stress does funny things to people that can be relieved by encouragement, excersize, or funny movies. Shes sorry she went on the ADS was my point. But maybe thats why she and I get along. :)
> If you are findinding that the antidepressant you are taking is making you emotionally numb or insensitive this a *tell-tale* sign that you are on too much. The drugs themselves are strong and often dosed too high. Most people are on them for moderate depression, not severe.
Are you trying to say that perhaps my depression is moderate? And that is why I feel overmedicated?
Or just that over medicating is typical?
The pdoc Im seeing at the moment started me on 300mg of Neurontin to help me sleep (my lack of sleep I think is peri menapausal as much as anything)But the nerontin helps.
After initial 3 day period she wanted me to go to 300 in the morning. I felt horrible, so morose. When I explained that she said that was me. I told her that is not how i feel when Im depressed.
It was kind of distressing to me that she said that. Like i dont know if Im over medicated. Is this normal to have to argue to convince your pdoc?Many people I know, are greatly helped by 5-10 mg of Celexa.
What is Celexa? Is it MOAI or SSRI or something else?
>
> Chemical imballance is not just bunk - this is what bitter/depressed people say as a way to stay and justify their bitter and depressed behavior. If you're looking to be convinced by us you never will. If you're in bad shape you need to ask yourself - do I even *want* to get better?I might be one of those people (bitter and cynical) but I read that info on a science web sight and it was testified to in court during a law suit. They have to qualify their adds by using the words "..MAY be caused by chemical imbalance." Maybe I would be better off if I had never read it but I did. My own theory is that our resposes can create the pathways that cause the imbalance. We can learn new responses... etc ....maybe youve heard all this and probably thought about more than I have, but I have given it some thought. I cant just take someones word. I feel the need to have things explained to me. Doctors arent always happy to do that.
The pdoc Im seeing told me about "racing thoughts" but I have no idea what else she thinks is wrong with me. She gave me Zoloft next and I had a pretty bad reaction because of my pain meds. She new I was taking pain meds,
Honestly It makes me feel like crying to be told Im cynical. It was a major drug interation, with potentially fatal side effects! I looked up the interaction on a drug checker web site. I feel pretty strongly that I need to look out for myself and that sort of confirmed it.
>
> It *is* possible to aproprately dose an AD so that you are not depressed and yet can still feel emotional.I need to hear that.
>
>> But remember what I said about emotional blunting.
>
> >
> Right dose
> (for me 10mg) = I could see what was most
> important. I understood what
> I could do to help and what
> I could not do. This is
> what is 'normal' - the
> understanding of what is
> and what is not useful
> behaviour.
>
>Another statistic I ve read is that 50% of ADS users have serious withdraws when they discontinue. I could feel better about trying different ADS but some of them seem to require a long period of trial and adjustment and trying so many seems frightning.
Did you have to try many or only 2 before you settled on the Celexa?
In my oppinion its really about finding the right dose of the right med. But don't think that all of us here are a bunch of hedonistic self centered drug pushers. I want for you what is best.
>
Thank you
peace
Ima
>
>
>
>
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Posted by linkadge on August 17, 2003, at 8:20:04
In reply to Redirected: medical profession or drug companies, posted by Dr. Bob on August 15, 2003, at 22:44:45
After explaining yourself, I understand exactly where you are coming from. The main idea here is to get you feeling better in any way, shape or form, as soon as possible. After this is done you can see things clearer, and perhaps find the diretion that can keep you feeling better.
You are right that serotonin theory is just a theory. The brain unlike the rest of the body is very hard to probe. I know its easy to believe that the drug companies are just out there to make money but thats only part of the story.
Celexa is one of the newer SSRIs. The patent for the drug was bought and tested by a man who knew first hand what depresison can do. His son was very suicidally depressed for a very long time. He started the company because he believed in the drug, and he believed it could help people.
The drug companies themselves are just the end of the road as far as the molecule goes. There are literally thousands of dedicated scientists who are searching for newer and more effective antideprssant meds.
Listen here....
Take the NK-1 receptor antagonist. This is a new line of antideprssant meds that should be out in 2 years or so. They block the NK-1 receptor wich mediates substance P. Not only is substance P intricately involved in depression, but also in pain disorders as well. The best researchers out there are studying people like you. Scientists know that there is an *intricate* relationship between pain and depression.
Take heart, there is hope in the future.
As far as depression goes new research is sheading light onto the genetic basis of the disease. There is a gene that aproximately 10 percent of the population has. According to reasearchers, those who have the gene, have a two fold increase in the reputake of serotonin. That means that 10 percent of the population is running on half the serotonin of the rest. It is in their genes. And there is no way to escape it naturally. These people don't see the world the same way as the rest.
I really need to hear more about your story to help you better.try emailing me again at: thague@sympatico.ca
or if that doesn't work: linkadge@hotmail.com
But, I can recomend on thing now and thats magnesium. Any depression where pain or stress is involved causes your magnesium stores to drop dramatically. Magnesium is absolutely crutial for the synthesis of serotonin.Do try again to email me, and good luck
Linkadge
Posted by Ima on August 17, 2003, at 11:28:43
In reply to Re: Redirected: medical profession or drug companies, posted by linkadge on August 17, 2003, at 8:20:04
Forgive me if I say that this response seems a little too smooth ;) You arent in R&D or a sales are you? Fess up!
Im glad we connected. (Dr Bob I hope I was civil in my email, I was trying, but after all you are a doctor and docs REALLY get me going)I appreciate the concern about my getting better soon. But Im not actully in any hurry. Id much rather do the home work first..measure twice.. you know. (my hubbies an engineer, fortunately for him, hes rubbing off on me). As for seeing clearer, Ive always looked at things slightly differently, and Im not convinced thats a bad thing. (words I tend to take literally so if you mean something differently, youll have to be more precise)
I would not be suprised to find my brain chemistry is different. Im just reminded that (though I cant lump my self with the great ones) many great inventors, artists, musicians and thinkers are people who found these mediums of expression as outlets or even therapy for their skewed perspective on the world (ie..pychosis).
Another concern I have is the lack of personal accountability that goes along with saying "its my chemistry" sounds akin to the devil made me.. hmmm...though there may be a link between the two...
Yes, Im probably Bi polar, yes since peri menapause set in Ive been more panicky but as the Greeks say "Time and death cure all things".Time (and old age :)have helped me learn to pick my battles instead of hopping into every one that passes me by. Any more, I dont have enough energy to fight them all. And then mid life has hit, where my ability to use dis association as a coping mechanism is failing me now. But its good with Gods help to get some of those demons out of the closet and finally have a look at them. I havent even a clue as to how I will deal with this but as I said Im in no hurry. They (my issues) are not going any where.
Im truly glad for people who are dangerous to themselves to have help through ADS. But Ive known alot of young people who have been suicidal ttill they found a friend who believed in them and helped them to see that it wasnt all them, but the world thats sorta messed up too. Sensitive young people dont have a lot of support in the modern school setting where if you dont learn to have a thick skin and cynical appearance you can be socially eaten alive. Some kids are good at living with that kind of dissonance.But the sensuitive ones find living with that ckind of incongruence (putting on a face)difficult to manage. I dont think medicating them is the first line of defense. Honestly, Ive personally helped a few.(I use to run a book store where they would drop in) No drugs, just truth and love, (the way I see truth of course).I really thingk lonliness and lack of community is at the heart of a lot of mental illness today. The book store was a place kids could come.
You say that pharm companies making money is just part of the equation. You know that they are the only ones spending money are R&D. When it comes to testing and follow up testing, thats sorta like the fox guarding the hen house. And you know also that pantent expiration has a tremendous effect on what doctors are encouraged to prescribe. Isnt it possible thats why lithium is passe?
I agree that there is a link between pain and depression. Subtle and not so subtle. The first as Ive been told is likely post trama oriented in my case, the second was the trama of coming off a horse at a full gallop. Nothing subtle about that one!
The first one of course is the harder to treat. Add to that the onset of menapuase, and fibromialgia and the coarse of treatment its seems to me should proceed alittle more cautiously.I have found natual hormone replacement therapy to be tremendously helpful. I can deal with my mood swings during the pms phase of my cycle much better now that I have progesterone. If I hadnt found a GP doc. whos specialty was hormone research I might have been on ADS alot sooner.
Thats the rub for me. Im not saying that I may not need to take ADS, but perhaps not as much or a differnt kind should be considered in light of the total picture. I just havent found a pdoc operating with that kind of precision and pharm companies have to bear some blame, the way I see it.
Thanks for the magnisium tip. I take it some, but I take so many supplimnents Im nerver really sure which is helping the most. What about the balance of magnisium, calcium and potassium? I ve been worried that if I take more magnisium I will upset the ratio.
My back is better than ever, though for me thats not the same as normal. I still cant sit for long stretches. But rest and time may be the best cure yet, I just get tired of the limitations it poses.
The fibro is probably more incapacitating and something im just learning to deal with.Thanks for getting back to me. Its been good to get to say what I want w/o fear of retribution or redirection! ;)
Have a good one
peace
ImaPS You didnt really answer my Celexa questions. Especially the one about withdraws. That one really scares me. The worst withdraws Ive had from my pain meds is pain (physical) and occasional "black dog days" as winston churchill liked to call them. Buts thats how I normally feel. Maybe you can address this in the next post.
Posted by maryhelen on August 19, 2003, at 9:09:07
In reply to Re: Redirected: medical profession or drug companies » linkadge, posted by Ima on August 17, 2003, at 11:28:43
Hi Ima:
Sorry about all this back and forth with the emails address. I do not know why you are not getting through to mine. linda51@sympatico.ca. The only thing I can think of is the power outage and rolling blackouts, here in Toronto, are messing up my computer because it is shutting down improperly.
If you feel comfortable, can you give me your email address or you could try mine again.
I would like to talk to you.
maryhelen
This is the end of the thread.
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