![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by noa on June 10, 2003, at 20:13:15
I think I've been doing pretty well through all this nonsense at work, but the installment today from the boss upped the ante. To document what I had said to the boss the other day over the phone, I just put it into an email and edited out the bitter edges before I sent it (like my adjectives that are commentary on the manner in which she said something, eg, "you reluctantly agreed", etc.--all edited out) and really tried to sound as cooperative as possible in the documentation, and I also asked to set up a meeting for next week to follow up on the discussion, as I had requested to defer it until this project was done, etc.
Today I come in and the reply from her was ok, let's set up the meeting to talk about resolving the matter but she just wants to make clear that there is no room for negotiation because it is company policy.
Which makes me want to ask her why she had bothered trying to solicit my "agreement" to the "plan" and then documenting, incorrectly, that I had supposedly "agreed" to the "plan". If it was a matter of conveying company policy to me, what was the charade about getting me to agree? (you know the adage for parents of toddlers--don't offer a choice unless a "no" response is something you can actually abide).
And I really don't want to even get into that kind of "letter of the law" argument, but as I mentioned in a previous post, there has been no policy stated, and it isn't in the contract or policy manual.
I just feel they are framing this all wrong anyway. I don't want to get into a dispute about the supposed policy because I feel like I'm being set up to look like I am refusing to ever be available to consult, which I am not. I think consultation might be necessary sometimes.
But I feel so incredibly uncomfortable with the boundaries. I am not sure I can commit to saying that should I be ill in the future that I will necessarily be able to meet their wish for ready availability all the time. First of all, it is simply not realistic to expect that a person is going to be immediately avaialable when you call them--whether they are sick or not.
And when it comes to availablity for consultation, I really feel it is a matter of weighing and balancing our professional responsibilities against respecting the boundaries of someone who is ill. This means weighing whether the matter requires consultation and cannot wait until the person returns, balanced with the value of respecting a person's need not to be disturbed when ill, so that they can return healthy as soon as possible to work and be able to perform well on the job, having used the sick time to recover. There may be times when it makes sense to ask for consultation, and times when it makes sense to wait. And if consultation is needed, it would facilitate things if when they called and get the voice mail, they leave a detailed message so that when I called back, if unable to reach them, I might be able to provide information that would address the concern, or at least partly address the concern until being able to connect in person. They are framing this as so black and white, all or nothing, and it is not a black and white, all or nothing, issue.
And if I trusted them on the issue of boundaries, there would probably be no problem. But I don't trust them, the more they act out with this issue the more I am convinced that I do have to protect my boundaries.
There was also a reference to something about 'non-critical illness'. A new element added to the issue. Again, I feel that the boundaries are being compromised. They had the right to require medical certification from me but did not ask. So I take it they are not challenging the validity of my use of sick days. Assuming I was not "critically ill" steps on the boundaries again, because there is no requirement for an employee to disclose the nature or severity of their illness. I am not implying that I want to get into this kind of debate with them. But I feel it is important to respect these boundaries. My feeling is that we should err on the side of assuming that if a person needs to stay home from work due to illness, that we should respect the need for undisturbed peace and quiet to heal, knowing that, of course, in the case of truly important/urgent matters, it is ok to call them to consult. But it feels intrusive to me to put the burden of proof on the sick person about how sick they are. It is even contrary to what the "Big" boss said recently at a large meeting about using sick days--she said, "I don't care what is wrong with you--you might be sick with a cold, or sick with a stomach bug or sick at heart--it doesn't matter". (but don't think I can go to the big boss for support--she can be hypocritical at times).
I had a tiring day and it was frustrating at times (like getting this new email) but also productive and rewarding at times--when I was able to actually do my job. I feel exhausted by this whole process and just want to be left alone to be able to do my job.When I came home today I just started crying and realized I am getting so weary of this and more and more ready to say it isn't worth it.
But it also angers me and saddens me. But it is just not worth it. I don't want to do this stupid dance/game playing.
Posted by Dinah on June 10, 2003, at 21:03:59
In reply to Just tired of it (work stuff), posted by noa on June 10, 2003, at 20:13:15
>
> But it also angers me and saddens me. But it is just not worth it. I don't want to do this stupid dance/game playing.(((Noa)))
I don't blame you one bit. They seem to be going about this in such a circuitous way. If they want to be able to call you to check that you really are sick, they should say so. I have this odd suspicion that that is the real reason they don't want to leave a message and have you get back to them. Maybe they think you'll call them back from the beach or something. If they don't think your illness was critical, they should have asked for a certification from your doctor.
It really does seem like a variation on the same theme they were playing with your co-worker. They suspected that she wasn't a team player, while your impression was that she was definitely a team player. There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of trust of management towards the people they supervise, and it sounds as if there is an us vs. them mentality that is very counterproductive. Sounds like your officeplace could use some family therapy. :(
Is there an anonymous suggestion system somewhere where you could suggest some corporate consultant/teambuilders come in and work out the unfortunate dynamics? Because sad to say, unless something changes in the management level, you will probably have to play those games if you work there.
Posted by zenhussy on June 10, 2003, at 22:04:51
In reply to Just tired of it (work stuff), posted by noa on June 10, 2003, at 20:13:15
>I had a tiring day and it was frustrating at times (like getting this new email) but also productive and rewarding at times--when I was able to actually do my job. I feel exhausted by this whole process and just want to be left alone to be able to do my job.
>When I came home today I just started crying and realized I am getting so weary of this and more and more ready to say it isn't worth it.
>But it also angers me and saddens me. But it is just not worth it. I don't want to do this stupid dance/game playing.
Noa,
I am so sorry you're stuck in the middle of this corporate power play. It sounds far too familiar to a situation in a company I used to work for.
They went through restructuring and teams were being plucked off one by one. The bs the middle management put everyone through was hellish.
It sounds as if you are working with extraordinarily difficult bosses. I wish I could come bash their kneecaps but that wouldn't do anything except help me with my rage and frustration and maybe put them out of the office on medical leave for a few weeks? Just a crazy idea. Totally joking but sometimes just thinking the crazy thoughts about the people who create such craziness in our already crazy lives just lightens up the yuckiness of the situation.
You are most correct in that you are engaged in a dance/game playing. It isn't fair and it isn't something that should be taking away from your work abilities. Damn your stupid bosses and the games they're playing!! Sorry you're dealing with this Noa.
zennyhusster
Posted by fallsfall on June 10, 2003, at 22:27:05
In reply to Just tired of it (work stuff), posted by noa on June 10, 2003, at 20:13:15
Yuck Yuck Yuck!!!
It should be possible to go to work and do your job and not have to deal with stuff like that. Aren't bosses supposed to take obstacles OUT of your way?
How good is the job? I would think this will blow over. Is it worth weathering the storm for the "calm" (Hmmmm, will it be calm?) afterwards?
Deep breathing works at work, too.
Posted by noa on June 10, 2003, at 23:44:50
In reply to Re: Just tired of it (work stuff) » noa, posted by fallsfall on June 10, 2003, at 22:27:05
Thanks, you guys.
After talking at length with a friend of mine, I am calmer. I think each new day I see more and more clearly what I am dealing with. My friend told me that she thinks they are just not going to ever get it and I should disengage. I It is hard for me to totally disengage because the boundary violtion feels so offensive to me. I can and have tried to not engage in some of it but I was holding on to this idea of being able to get them to be more reasonable and defending this boundary. But now I know that I really am ready to pack it up and leave sometime soon, so it becomes easier to totally just disengage, especially since this lates email from the boss. Ironically, this annoying ante-upping email actually gives me a way to disengage now that I have decided it is a losing battle and I need to prepare to leave.
I'll explain. Now that the issue is no longer about presenting me with a plan and getting me to agree to the plan, but has "morphed" into simply conveying a so-called "company policy", I am just going to basically acknowledge receipt--ok, they've conveyed it to me. And I will call off the meeting because really there is nothing to meet about at this point.
When we ended the other meeting, I had said that I needed to think about how to respond and wanted to work out a way to resolve it, and the boss had replied that she did feel confident that it could be resolved. Which of course, is way different than what she is now saying, which is just that this is a non-negotiable company policy. I might say something about that--just a comment about the change from getting my agreement to a "Plan" vs. communicating a "policy" to me. I don't know, I'll play it by ear.
My only questin at that point, then will be about the memo-if it is somethig going in my file, I will want to write a response to it because it reads like a list of accusations, and also has innacuracies and distortions that I must officialy dispute because they imply I did something wrong when I did not.
I'll keep you posted.
Posted by zenhussy on June 11, 2003, at 0:19:40
In reply to Re: Just tired of it (work stuff), posted by noa on June 10, 2003, at 23:44:50
Noa,
Be sure to have hard copies of all these e-mails if you can. Get everything off of your work computer (I'm assuming you are in an office with the whole pc world of endless e-mails that waste time and hamper productivity) that is non work related. Clear out logs of instant messages if you use any of those programs on your machine.
I'm sure someone here has more specific advice about how to wipe your hard drive so that your company cannot delve into your pc to come up with anything against you. I'm not saying you have anything to worry about on your pc but it is within most companies rights to access anything on any desktop that is their property.
I found this out after I had left my last company but was lucky. A coworker wiped my drive clean before the IT dept. could come snoop for anything relating to the incompetence of my immediate boss---I kept documentation of his errors and flub ups so that it wouldn't come back to me. But as I left the company in a hurry I didn't have time to clean out the pc. My coworker told me he finished wiping my drives about an hour before the IT dept. came to take my machine---same day I left.
Document everything if you are leaving because it does sound as if there could be infractions of the ADA. I know that the NAMI website has links to the disabilities act and what it does and does not cover. But from what it sounds like there is some shaky business going down in your company.
Disengaging is healthiest but I just want to make sure that you aren't going out with your head hanging. You have nothing to be ashamed of and you've just learned a life lesson about the interoffice politics of petty people. Bummer it might come at the cost of your job that you do seem to like. However your health is NOT worth any amount of crap that bosses toss in your way.
Please take care and do update. I'll be leaving soon but hope to find some access where I'm going, otherwise I'll be back mid next month.
zenh.
Posted by Tabitha on June 11, 2003, at 0:38:15
In reply to Re: Just tired of it (work stuff), posted by noa on June 10, 2003, at 23:44:50
sorry you're going through this mess, Noa. I know it's upsetting, but you do seem to be doing a good job of responding to it. I hope you give yourself credit for that.
Posted by Dinah on June 11, 2003, at 2:46:01
In reply to Re: Just tired of it (work stuff), posted by noa on June 10, 2003, at 23:44:50
(((Noa)))
I am sorry. It must be so difficult when you love your job but have to put up with stuff that should have been left behind in grade school. It's really a shame that they are allowed to behave in a way that is counterproductive to the organization's wellbeing. I wonder if thir bosses have any idea of how badly they're doing their jobs.
Just make sure you do what is best for you. It really seems like you're doing a good job of behaving calmly in difficult circumstances. I am so impressed.
Posted by kara lynne on June 11, 2003, at 14:41:45
In reply to Re: Just tired of it (work stuff), posted by noa on June 10, 2003, at 23:44:50
Hi Noa,
I just wanted to get in my vote of support. It sounds like you're on the right track after the conversation with your friend. Once you have your bottom line in place they will feel it as well, and as you said it will be easier to disengage.The boundary violations would get my hackles up. It really is humiliating, all the policing and being treated like a child. I would immediately go into shame and guilt (as well as rage), which they would of course have a field day with. It's so hard to be effective while you're reactive though, and I think your new plan is a much better one. The less juice given this nonsense the better. It doesn't seem *fair*, but I guess ultimately it works in your favor.
Meanwhile of course your rights should be respected, and it sure seems like they're being violated here. I don't know all the political ramifications of handling a situation like this, or the best way to handle it--ie where you are hurt the least. My problem lies somewhere between wanting to take action to make something right and giving up. (I'm hearing "You got to know when to fold"...) It takes me forever to realize when the people I'm dealing are not ever going to "get it" and I'm taking better care of myself by disengaging. It sounds like you're finding the right medium in there somewhere.
Anyway, I really appreciate you here, and I wish you the best.
Kara
Posted by Dinah on June 11, 2003, at 17:06:02
In reply to Re: Just tired of it (work stuff), posted by kara lynne on June 11, 2003, at 14:41:45
There are no boundaries at my work. Because my office is so small, and the medical plan is run through my office, they know all about my therapy visits etc. Today I get a call from my boss and the plan administrator saying that my therapy isn't covered after all unless it was ordered by my doctor. Well, this had come up before (from the same anti-therapy plan administrator), and I had gotten a letter from my pdoc saying that therapy was a part of my treatment and for medical rather than personal growth purposes. My boss today was arguing with me that that was not a letter from a doctor, but rather from a psychologist and didn't qualify! I set him straight, but I also requested a copy of the letter in case they later "lose" it. Geesh. At least my doctor was relatively vague in describing the medical condition.
Posted by noa on June 11, 2003, at 17:30:14
In reply to cover your bases » noa, posted by zenhussy on June 11, 2003, at 0:19:40
Thanks, Z--it's good advice. I started thinking about starting to clean up my computer files, in advance of leaving. You are lucky to have had such a great, fast-thinking co-worker to help you out.
I was thinking of starting to send a lot of stuff to my private computer at home via email, then erasing it at work.
I once was fired, illegally (and I got justice afterward), but before I left, I erased the hard drive. It was a pretty darn old clunker of a computer anyway, so there wasn't that much that I kept on it, and even less that would be material. In any event, that employer had no real IT dept., just a guy who came in once in a while as a consultant, which cost them big bucks. They were so dumb about technology anyway that I wasn't so worried about that. I was worried about other stuff, but not that. In any event they really had no case for defense so their defense was a total hodgepodge of defenses, like loading up all the BS they could because not one of their arguments held water. They just loaded up so they could try to snow the jury. But the jury saw through it and I won.
But you are right. I surely have no intention of my situation ever getting to such an adversarial stage. The previous situation was so clear cut for me and one of such obvious principle--like clear right vs. wrong where they ordered me to disobey a law and I told them I could not disobey the law.
In my current position, the people are actually much more above board and professional (this tells you how bad the previous place was!!). But in a way, it is more disappointing, because from the start, I expected more of these people. The previous job, I kind of knew how crazy they were. I even told my therapist, during the crisis, the day before I had to comply with the law, which was also the day they fired me (it happened within minutes of my compliance with the law), I had told him in therapy that evening that although they couldn't fire me for this becasue it would be so blatantly illegal to do so, I knew that they would drum up some reason to get rid of me within a few months. So I knew what I was dealing with. The only surprise was not their evilness but their stupidity at actually firing me on the spot!
But in my current job, I actually expected more of them, so it is a let-down.
I am more calm today. I've kind of checked out emotionally, and feel more empowered. I wrote in a thread above about something I did today that felt really good.
Thanks for the support.
Posted by noa on June 11, 2003, at 17:30:50
In reply to Re: Just tired of it (work stuff) » noa, posted by Tabitha on June 11, 2003, at 0:38:15
Thanks, Tabby. I feel a lot better today.
Posted by noa on June 11, 2003, at 17:31:39
In reply to Re: Just tired of it (work stuff) » noa, posted by Dinah on June 11, 2003, at 2:46:01
Thanks, Dinah. This is becoming more and more clear to me as I go along, and with all the support I've gotten.
Thanks.
Posted by noa on June 11, 2003, at 17:34:05
In reply to Re: Just tired of it (work stuff), posted by kara lynne on June 11, 2003, at 14:41:45
>(I'm hearing "You got to know when to fold"...)
And, LOL, I am one of those people who absolutely does not have a poker face!! Like I said, I am not a game player. But you know, that song is right! And I feel more empowered now.
Thanks.
Posted by kara lynne on June 11, 2003, at 18:39:22
In reply to Re: Just tired of it (work stuff) » kara lynne, posted by noa on June 11, 2003, at 17:34:05
God, I don't have a poker face either-- I think I'd have such an easier time of it if I did. When people tell me they feel the same way I do about something but they just don't show it, I think that's half the battle won right there.
I'm terrible at faking smiles too-- I just start twitching and grimacing. I guess it comes from growing up in a family where I had to decipher the hidden meaning behind everything. Still, I wish I had learned better coping skills in that regard.
I'm glad you're feeling better noa.
Posted by Greg on June 11, 2003, at 18:42:20
In reply to Just tired of it (work stuff), posted by noa on June 10, 2003, at 20:13:15
Hi Noa,
I wanted to chime in and lend you my support along with the rest. I have been following your posts with great interest (and a lot of head shaking). If it weren't that your supervisor's behavior was belittling and demeaning to you (my opinion), I would find them to be comical at best. Nearly every company has someone in their employ like this, unfortunately you are the chosen target. Their point could be made just as easily if they walked around in tee shirts that stated in big, block letters, "I'M THE BOSS!"
I spoke with my Dept Head today, and without giving any particulars, explained your situation to him and asked what my companies policy is. His first comment was that your supervisors were going above and beyond the call of duty in trying to make sure that you knew who the bosses were in your company.
I work for a very large company. Their policy for sick time is pretty simple. If you are sick and wont be coming in, they do not require you to talk to a live voice. They do however ask that you leave a message at two voice mails. This is in the event that the first person you called also doesn't come in, someone will know that you will be absent. As far as contacting the person at home, if you work in a supervisory capacity, they ask that you try to be available for calls if possible. But they will make every effort to deal with any problems that arise without disturbing you. If you are a "regular" employee, you will not be contacted at home while on a sick day. The one possible proviso to that is if you are working on a critical project and a problem comes up that only you have the answer for. That happens very rarely. When I've stayed home sick, I will let them know in my message if I will be available for phone calls. If I don't say anything, I expect them to leave me alone.
I think it's obvious to all concerned that this is more than them just wanting you to call them personally. They should be upfront with you and tell you what it's REALLY all about. But I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that to happen. Whether you choose to stay or go Noa, I hope you make the decision that brings you some peace of mind. This has troubled you long enough.
Heavy sigh...
Greg
Posted by judy1 on June 11, 2003, at 22:57:57
In reply to Re: Just tired of it (work stuff), posted by noa on June 10, 2003, at 23:44:50
I'm glad you feel calmer, these people just aren't worth your emotions. Like another poster, I was involved with 'game-playing' bosses. They were so awful that a psychologist was brought in to help them manage properly (to no avail). I landed up leaving because I was a complete emotional wreck, and several months later I found out they were fired. I know it's really hard to remove yourself emotionally when you are in the midst of this, but for your own health I pray you can. take care, judy
Posted by zenhussy on June 12, 2003, at 1:38:56
In reply to Re: cover your bases » zenhussy, posted by noa on June 11, 2003, at 17:30:14
>>... When I said no, she got that angry, scared look and started going on about the number of days left to have it happen. I was totally confident it would happen, and though it hadn't already happened, the process was in motion for the things that had to happen first, leading up to it happening. So, I was happy that I did not allow my defensive buttons to be pushed, and then out of nowhere, this improvised move came out: she was standing with her hands on the copy machine, and I just kind of leaned in a little and put my hand on her arm, and looked her in the eye, smiled, and said, "Don't worry, 'M', I'm on the case." I think she was too stunned to reply and so I just went about my business and walked away. I know, it is so patronizing, but wow, it feels good to have done it!!<<
You go Noa! Good for you. Wish we could have been flies on the wall to see that. Sounds priceless!
> I once was fired, illegally (and I got justice afterward)....In any event they really had no case for defense so their defense was a total hodgepodge of defenses, like loading up all the BS they could because not one of their arguments held water. They just loaded up so they could try to snow the jury. But the jury saw through it and I won.
I'm so glad you got justice. What tools they sound like. Glad a jury of your peers saw through their flimsy snow job.
> But you are right. I surely have no intention of my situation ever getting to such an adversarial stage. The previous situation was so clear cut for me and one of such obvious principle--like clear right vs. wrong where they ordered me to disobey a law and I told them I could not disobey the law.Smart and have morals? You rock.
> In my current position, the people are actually much more above board and professional (this tells you how bad the previous place was!!). But in a way, it is more disappointing, because from the start, I expected more of these people.
> But in my current job, I actually expected more of them, so it is a let-down.It is a total let-down. Sorry that this job seems to be on the way out most likely (as managers tend not to change and their behavior is getting weirder). It just sounds like corporate lameness.
I truly wonder how CEOs run their companies with such idiotic middle management that micromanages their companies right out of profitibility!
> I am more calm today. I've kind of checked out emotionally, and feel more empowered. I wrote in a thread above about something I did today that felt really good.I felt good reading about what ya did and put it at the top of this post. Patronize away. Disengage. You really sound like you have a good grip on the fact that this is your bosses deal and not yours and that you are already thinking about another job. Those are positive things. I'm just sorry that you liked this one and these boobs had to ruin it for ya. = (
Take care and I'll hopefully read up about some fantastic new job you have in July when I'm back.
zenh.
Posted by coral on June 12, 2003, at 3:26:05
In reply to Just tired of it (work stuff), posted by noa on June 10, 2003, at 20:13:15
Dear Noa,
Send an e-mail inquiry to the human resources department asking who has the authority to establish company policies concerning absenteeism.
At this point, I wouldn't go into the specifics of why you want to know, just a general inquiry.
Company policies are legal documents, binding the company under "fair labor practices," and the human resource departments are loathe to discover that supervisors are out creating their own "company" policies. You wouldn't believe the tangles that are created when this happens (supervisors setting policy.)
Coral
Posted by noa on June 12, 2003, at 3:54:56
In reply to Re: Speaking of boundary violations, posted by Dinah on June 11, 2003, at 17:06:02
WOW. That situation would make me extremely uncomfortable!!
Posted by noa on June 12, 2003, at 4:09:11
In reply to Re: Just tired of it (work stuff) » noa, posted by Greg on June 11, 2003, at 18:42:20
I like the t-shirt idea a lot!
Thanks for asking your boss and I love his answer!
We have to leave two voice mails, too. One for the boss and one for the office manager so the support staff knows and for logistical stuff. But I also always leave one for my two--soon to be one :( --team-mates because we always cover for eacher other while out. Now I'm also supposed to call the half-boss at home, which I find an unnecessary pain in the a** but didn't fight really because it wasn't worth it.
And the critical info thing for urgent matters--that wouldn't be a problem for me. But to assume that a sick person would answer the phone immediately or call back immediately and manage to catch them at their desks--just seems unrealistic. And sometimes, they can get the info from me via a returned voice mail message anyway. Sometimes not, of course, but they could say so in their VM to me that direct contact is essential. It would be a rare event, imo, though, for something that urgent.
BTW, interesting about supervisors being available. This must be true at my place, too, but I don't call them when they are out. And believe me, questions do come up that I need to ask them. But I either try to find the info some other way if I needed it sooner rather than later, or I wait. W-A-I-T. Remember when we were little kids and our parents taught us this concept? It requires containing our anxiety for a little bit, but I think most of us learned how to do it. One of my bosses clearly hasn't mastered the skill. The other just needs to always be the BOSS. In fact, I really thing the other supervisor, the senior one (the anxious, micromanaging one), better watch her tail!!
Thanks for the info and support. I just might copy and paste the section you wrote about your company, and have it with me, just in case, at my meeting.
Posted by noa on June 12, 2003, at 4:10:12
In reply to Re: Just tired of it (work stuff) » noa, posted by judy1 on June 11, 2003, at 22:57:57
Posted by noa on June 12, 2003, at 4:12:15
In reply to heh heh heh you sly patronizing devil you » noa, posted by zenhussy on June 12, 2003, at 1:38:56
Thanks, Z, and have a good, safe trip. Good luck with all the very grown up stuff you have to do.
Posted by noa on June 12, 2003, at 4:12:58
In reply to Re: Just tired of it (work stuff), posted by coral on June 12, 2003, at 3:26:05
Posted by tina on June 12, 2003, at 21:59:38
In reply to Just tired of it (work stuff), posted by noa on June 10, 2003, at 20:13:15
Jeez Noa, this makes me feel actually 'fortunate' for having a job that doesn't require much of a brain to do. I couldn't deal with all that crap either. I don't blame you for getting overwhelmed.
I wish I could give you the perfect solution but I don't have one. I wish it was easier on you.
((((((Noa)))))))
tina
This is the end of the thread.
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