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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by IsoM on January 31, 2003, at 20:15:28
In reply to Re: and my dear OddipusRex, in return » IsoM, posted by OddipusRex on January 31, 2003, at 19:28:59
If you couldn't see why I included my Ukrainaian friend, I'll explain it to you.
She doesn't think Ukrainian jokes steortype Ukranian people or put them down in any way. And coming from someone who's proud of her Ukrainian heritage, I think her opinion of racial or stereotypical jokes count for something. She aptly pointed out the difference between a "light hearted" joke & a derogatory one. She could see the difference. I can see the difference. Others can see the difference. You can't. It's like explaining colour to a colour-blind person.
- - - -"> I take it that you're actually serious about your post. May I suggest finding something more pressing & serious that needs guidance or correction?
No please don't suggest that. It would make me feel put down. Please don't make judgments about whether my concerns are pressing or serious."
I'm really astounded now. Would you really feel put down by my suggestion? If someone said it to me (& they have), I wouldn't feel put down. I'm not so sensitive that every passing comments going to make me feel belittled. I feel much more happy with myself than that. And I don't ind sensible suggestions from others. It's those sort of suggestions that have helped me to grow & mature over the years.
- - - - - -You're completely missing the point about the humour. It's not making fun about PEOPLE - it's making fun about the ideas of what may be polite. The ideas of etiquette can be quite amusing. I simply used the term Redneck Etiquette as that's how it was emailed me by a friend. I never in a thousand years thought anyone would get righteous over that term. How about if I call it Backwoods Etiquette? But wait - I live in near a heavily wooded area. That's not meant to be trite. I'm trying to get the point across that the humour is about *etiquette*, not *people*!
- - - - -And guess what? I do get upset when certain animals are unfairly maligned. I hate the wolf, the hynaena, the wolverine, spiders, & many bugs been shown as repulsive. I happen to like them. But I'm not chastising others about their idea of them. Yes, animals count. Not on the same level as people, but respect for all life is important & would go a long way to preserving our earth. But animals vs people is besides the point. And I'm sorry you didn't understand what I meant by it.
- - - - -I don't mind you sticking to your principles. But I will stick to mine too & I stand by my comment that I see no harm in it. You do. End of discussion.
And as Kipling said "Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat."
Posted by Dinah on January 31, 2003, at 21:05:59
In reply to standing by my view » OddipusRex, posted by IsoM on January 31, 2003, at 20:15:28
This kind of reminds me of the midget thread a while back. And yes, humor about groups does make me uncomfortable. Am I overly sensitive? If I am, I'm not going to apologize for it.
I know that "rednecks" are considered fair game for jokes. They aren't a recognized minority. The ones I know don't really mind and even find it funny, but that doesn't mean I'd use the term or make the jokes anyway. It's not really something they have a whole lot more control over than little people or people of color. I suppose that they could try to move up the social caste system, but why should they have to? To be more acceptable in the eyes of the majority? My mama taught me that you don't make fun of anyone, especially about something they can't change.
I always apply the word substitution test. Would it be funny if you substituted a vulnerable recognized minority group? If not, then perhaps it shouldn't be said.
Perhaps I am sensitive to this fact because some of my best friends married people who might be classified as rednecks. But it wouldn't make any difference. I would feel the same way about Ukrainian jokes, especially made by non-Ukrainians.
So Oddipus, while no one was trying to be unkind to you or to this social class, I'm sure, please don't feel that you are to be censured for caring. I admire it in you. And when people call you over-sensitive, say "Thank you" very politely. Because it's not a crime to be sensitive to the feelings of others.
(By the way, I also see practical jokes as socially accepted forms of aggression, so feel free to tell me that I have no sense of humor. I'm comfortable with that. :) )
Dinah
P.S. Didn't the term redneck come into being because the people were out working or playing in the outdoors a lot? Hardly a badge of shame.
Posted by jay on January 31, 2003, at 21:20:11
In reply to Re: standing by my view - Oddipus Rex please read, posted by Dinah on January 31, 2003, at 21:05:59
Dinah:
Well, first off, 'rednecks' aren't a social class, and they aren't a racial class. The term is used for someones social and political values. I *will not* apologize for calling somebody ignorant who thinks a certain race of people should sit in the back of a bus. I *will not* apologize for someone who believes women should be subjected to 'second class citizens', and belong 'in the kitchen and pregnant'. AND..I *will not* apologize for persons who think they have a right right to physically beat a child.
This has *nothing* to do with race, colour, sexual orientation, etc. It has to do with a group of people, a type of person, who believes in the above, based solely on their political and social views. Now *do* you understand?
Jay
Posted by mikhail99 on January 31, 2003, at 21:28:35
In reply to Re: My dear Ms IsoM, posted by justyourlaugh on January 31, 2003, at 19:30:42
> wow,
> can i post about the weather?
>
> i just ordered a pizza with african american olives on it-want a slice?
> j:-) (good one!)
Posted by mikhail99 on January 31, 2003, at 21:32:11
In reply to Re: standing by my view ... » Dinah, posted by jay on January 31, 2003, at 21:20:11
Posted by OddipusRex on January 31, 2003, at 21:34:06
In reply to standing by my view » OddipusRex, posted by IsoM on January 31, 2003, at 20:15:28
She aptly pointed out the difference between a "light hearted" joke & a derogatory one. She could see the difference. I can see the difference. Others can see the difference. You can't. It's like explaining colour to a colour-blind person.
Are you suggesting that I am somehow defective? I believe I CAN see the difference. Please don't make judgments about my ability to discern between light-hearted humour and derogatory jokes. Perhaps I am not the one who is unable to see colour. That statement caused me a lot of pain. I don't think because I disagree with you, I am somehow not as discerning as you and the "Others" you speak for.
> - - - -
>
> "> I take it that you're actually serious about your post. May I suggest finding something more pressing & serious that needs guidance or correction?
>
> No please don't suggest that. It would make me feel put down. Please don't make judgments about whether my concerns are pressing or serious."
>
> I'm really astounded now. Would you really feel put down by my suggestion?*yes*
If someone said it to me (& they have), I wouldn't feel put down.
*But I am not you and I don't want to become more like you.*
I'm not so sensitive that every passing comments going to make me feel belittled. I feel much more happy with myself than that. And I don't ind sensible suggestions from others. It's those sort of suggestions that have helped me to grow & mature over the years.
> - - - - - -
>
> You're completely missing the point about the humour. It's not making fun about PEOPLE - it's making fun about the ideas of what may be polite. The ideas of etiquette can be quite amusing. I simply used the term Redneck Etiquette as that's how it was emailed me by a friend. I never in a thousand years thought anyone would get righteous over that term.
.........
I'm not "righteous" if you meant to imply self-righteous. I believe I'm right or I wouldn't have bothered to post.
How about if I call it Backwoods Etiquette? But wait - I live in near a heavily wooded area. That's not meant to be trite. I'm trying to get the point across that the humour is about *etiquette*, not *people*!
...........
Then why was it necessary to label it with a particular ethnic group? Are jokes about Jews being greedy about "personality traits" and not "people"? I don't think so!
> - - - - -
>
> And guess what? I do get upset when certain animals are unfairly maligned. I hate the wolf, the hynaena, the wolverine, spiders, & many bugs been shown as repulsive. I happen to like them. But I'm not chastising others about their idea of them. Yes, animals count. Not on the same level as people, but respect for all life is important & would go a long way to preserving our earth. But animals vs people is besides the point. And I'm sorry you didn't understand what I meant by it.
> - - - - -I think I did understand. Very well. I like animals too. But I don't compare defaming animals with defaming ethnic groups.
.............
> I don't mind you sticking to your principles. But I will stick to mine too & I stand by my comment that I see no harm in it. You do. End of discussion.
.............
But it harmed me. So there is *some* harm in it isn't there?
>
>
Some people, if they don't know you just can't tell them. Louis Armstrong?
>
Posted by Dinah on January 31, 2003, at 21:34:24
In reply to Re: standing by my view ... » Dinah, posted by jay on January 31, 2003, at 21:20:11
Actually, Jay...
The term refers to the working class I'm sure you don't mean to disparage. The term comes from the fact that they work in the sun, on fishing boats for example, and they play in the sun, hunting for example. So yes, the term does refer to a social class. You're born to "redneck" parents in a "redneck" area and go to "redneck" schools.
And the schools aren't great. That's partly due to the distribution of wealth amongst school districts. And it's partly do to the lack of emphasis placed on education by the parents, who figure their kids can do manual labor the way they did. It's hardly the kids fault, and it's hardly the fault of the adults who grew up in this environment. Are they "ignorant"? I suppose you could say so, in that ignorant means unaware of facts. Should they be despised for it. NO!!! Should people only be respected if they have a good degree? Should people only be respected if they take on a certain world view that comes with a certain education and a certain social class? NO!!!
Please don't make assumptions about groups of people you don't know. I know quite a few people who would class themselves as "rednecks" who don't beat their children or their wives.
I'm not going to say any more.
Posted by OddipusRex on January 31, 2003, at 21:46:10
In reply to Re: standing by my view ..., posted by Dinah on January 31, 2003, at 21:34:24
Thanks for your posts. I agree with you. I hope this isn't making you feel as horrible as it is making me feel. I will never apologize for standing up for the victims of bullies. And I think bigotry is bullying on a grand scale carried out by small minded people.
You're a good person, Dinah. It takes a lot of courage to stand up for an unpopular group.
Posted by Dinah on January 31, 2003, at 21:58:12
In reply to You're right Dinah » Dinah, posted by OddipusRex on January 31, 2003, at 21:46:10
Please don't feel awful about it. I know that's easier said than done. :) But please don't. I'm afraid I don't feel awful about things like this anymore. I say what I feel and realize that not everyone will understand my viewpoint or agree with me. But that doesn't stop me from saying it.
Nobody thinks less of you for doing what you think is right. And I don't think anyone here is trying to be unkind. It'll be okay, really.
(((Oddipus Rex)))
Now don't go leaving us over this, hear?
With admiration right back at ya.
Dinah
Posted by jodie on January 31, 2003, at 23:45:06
In reply to Re: Oddipus Rex, posted by Dinah on January 31, 2003, at 21:58:12
Whoa...heated conversation.....
You know, I remember I would never touch my dads keys when a was a little girl. I would catch him sticking a key in his ear to clean it. I remember my mom used to yell at him to stop, and I told him it was disgusting. I guess by reading the "jokes" I'm labeled as coming from a "redneck" family? I dislike being labeled anything. I am a blonde, so I hate those blonde jokes.
Lets just think about what we type, before doing so!!!!
Can't we all just get along? :-)Jodie
Posted by shar on February 1, 2003, at 0:10:59
In reply to Redneck Etiquette Rules, posted by IsoM on January 31, 2003, at 15:19:57
I've never done much reading or research on the phenomenon of humor, but I've heard that one thing that's funny is something unexpected (like in slapstick, the banana peel).
In jokes, there always seems to be a target of some sort. Even if we watch the Cosby show (not a joke in the strictest sense), the funny parts are the exaggerations that one does about another (like the parents reacting to the teenagers). Whether or not something is explicitly stated, there is a target (like, Bill Cosby doesn't turn to the audience and say "this is a joke about teenagers") but, in reality, that's what it is.
I'm trying to think of an actual joke that doesn't have a target. Anybody know one?
The redneck joke Iso posted I've seen versions of as a Texan joke and a Kentuckian joke. I wonder if it is still offensive if it's about Texans? Because, in itself, "Texan" is not an 'offensive' word. At least, I don't think it is. But, then, I'm a redneck.
Shar
Posted by Dinah on February 1, 2003, at 0:11:34
In reply to Re: The redneck jokes, posted by jodie on January 31, 2003, at 23:45:06
(Chuckle) Well, actually Jodie, I think I could qualify for a few myself. ;)
You mean everyone doesn't set a place for their pup at the table? And before I got married, when my big dogs used to sleep with me, I made sure to vacuum the bed every night. Ummm... it was the little ones at the table though. The big guys couldn't fit on the chairs.
Posted by jodie on February 1, 2003, at 0:18:33
In reply to Re: The jokes » jodie, posted by Dinah on February 1, 2003, at 0:11:34
I am engaged, have been for 3 years. We live together. I have 2 large dogs, they sleep in bed with us...hair and all. My pups are part of the family!!! I AINT sleepin without em!!!
Posted by Dinah on February 1, 2003, at 0:23:51
In reply to Re: The jokes--Dinah, posted by jodie on February 1, 2003, at 0:18:33
Well, I must 'fess up. When I first got married, my big dogs did sleep with us. They always had slept with me, and it would have been difficult to kick them out as they were older. They had to sleep on my side though (not a problem for them). But when they died, my husband preferred that the new ones sleep beside the bed. The one loves a dog bed, the other prefers the cool floor. Neither of them seem to mind.
Posted by jodie on February 1, 2003, at 0:34:47
In reply to Re: The jokes » jodie, posted by Dinah on February 1, 2003, at 0:23:51
By morning time my dogs are on the cool floor. Sometimes, I have to admit, I kick (not literally) them off the bed. But I also have 2 cats. One of them thinks he has to sleep on my neck for some odd reason. A queen size bed, two humans, 2 dogs, & two cats, it gets a little crowded!!! I've tried the dog bed thing, for some reason my smallest cat is the only one who uses it, and the bed is for an 80 - 100 lb. dog!!! Samantha (the cat) is, oh, about 5 lbs.
Posted by Dinah on February 1, 2003, at 0:39:07
In reply to Re: The jokes, posted by jodie on February 1, 2003, at 0:34:47
I can picture you all in my mind.
I used to have a wee little dog who slept on the small of my back. I learned to sleep without moving, and to this day I have to wake up to turn over.
Posted by jodie on February 1, 2003, at 0:49:03
In reply to Re: You paint a charming picture. » jodie, posted by Dinah on February 1, 2003, at 0:39:07
When my cat is laying on me, I try not to move, so I don't disturb him. I end up in these really funny positions, trying to make room for the pets. It's so kind of the dogs and cats to let us share "their" bed with them. Except when my dogs have gas (uhhhh it is horrible), I have to claim the bed back!!!
Posted by jodie on February 1, 2003, at 0:53:56
In reply to Re: Sleeping as still as possible--Dinah, posted by jodie on February 1, 2003, at 0:49:03
My fiance' is having a sleep study tonight, so I get the bed all to myself, along with the dogs & cats of course. Sjynja (pronounced Sinja) and Tyson, the dogs, are on the bed getting it warmed up for me now. They pretty much tell me when its bed time, and its almost 2 am here!
Good night!!!!!!
Jodie
Posted by IsoM on February 1, 2003, at 1:57:57
In reply to Re: The jokes--Dinah, posted by jodie on February 1, 2003, at 0:18:33
Posted by Dinah on February 1, 2003, at 2:19:33
In reply to I will stick to deadly dull subjects from now on.. (nm), posted by IsoM on February 1, 2003, at 1:57:57
C'est impossible! (If I remember my high school French.)
No topic could be dull when you're discussing it, IsoM. You're even entertaining on the meds board, talking about neurotransmitters and things that usually put me to sleep. And to me, at least, neurotransmitter talk is potentially lethal in its dullness.
Posted by IsoM on February 1, 2003, at 3:09:52
In reply to Re: I will stick to deadly dull subjects from now on.. » IsoM, posted by Dinah on February 1, 2003, at 2:19:33
Thanks for your sweet comments, Dinah. But it seems safer to discuss absolutely neutral subjects & not to show a human face. Normally, I try to post in rather remote clinical terms but I remember one poster saying they missed my humour posts. Think I'll go watch Homestar Runner trying to do his Fluffy Puff marshmallow commercial again for a laugh. Or maybe Tenacious D doing their Tribute song & video. Both always perks me up.
Doesn't anyone get the point I was trying to make? It was the idea of ridiculous **etiquette** that was funny - not the people. But if I was to say Coyote Etiquette or Vegetable Etiquette, it wouldn't work. It has to be people that practice that would practice such silly ideas. Ah well...shows how diff we are. I could see the actual scenes, playing out visually in my mind - it wasn't the "people" I saw. To me, I saw slap stick humour & nothing more. Maybe I don't even know what rednecks are supposed to be.
Posted by Dinah on February 1, 2003, at 8:04:51
In reply to Re: I will stick to deadly dull subjects from now on.. » Dinah, posted by IsoM on February 1, 2003, at 3:09:52
> To me, I saw slap stick humour & nothing more. Maybe I don't even know what rednecks are supposed to be.
I knew that IsoM. That's why I explained. You see the problem with redneck jokes is that when people see someone who fits some of the "redneck" stereotypes (drinks beer, has a gun rack in their truck, wears a certain type of clothing, has a red neck :), add a few more as you please) that they will then extrapolate from those facts that they have a lot of other characteristics as well. That maybe they hold certain political beliefs or have certain character flaws.
And that just isn't true as a group. It may be true of individuals, but it's not true as an entire group.
In fact, none of your jokes even implied such a thing. They were based on the lack of social graces of rednecks. Yet, that very extrapolation occurred on this thread.
I think that maybe the stereotype gets confused with the meaning in people who aren't in contact with rednecks.
Just my 2 cents.
Dinah
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 1, 2003, at 8:22:26
In reply to Re: I will stick to deadly dull subjects from now on.. » Dinah, posted by IsoM on February 1, 2003, at 3:09:52
IsoM,
You wrote,[...maybe I do not know what rednecks are supposed to be...]
The term , redneck, has taken a different meaning from its original use. The original use was to describe a peoples that habited an area around the Carolinas that developed the characteristic red neck. They were of all types of economic classes and had no identifying social characteristics to differentiate them from those that did not have red necks. You see, the characteristic red neck was a result of where they lived, for that area of the country had a vitamin deficiency that caused the characteristic red neck. That area of the United States also had a particular dialecta. Tragically, it was in this area of the United Staes that racial predudice and hatred existed openly after the Civil War. Today, there are still people running for public office on a platform of hatred for minorities in that are of the United States. But it is only a minority of the people in that area of the country that support those type of public officials. So a lot of people, unfairly, became associated with "rednecks". Then belittlement became associated with "rednecks" and the classical ridicule of demeaness was attached to their peoples and developed into a [humor?] by comedians on television and writers of joke books. I have friends at Duke University and go to the Great Smokie Mountians frquently. From the people that I know, the term "redneck" is not accepted. They consider it to be demaning and cause people to be falsly associated , like the old "Amos and Andy" radio program that although it had a large audiance,, it demaned black people. The program was taken off the air. There are parts of the country that do not allow the comic strip,'Snuffy Smith" to be in their newspaper because of its demeaning of "Mountian" people.
The question before us here is whether the [jokes?] about "rednecks" should be permissible in the context of a mental health community. In a mental health community, people are seeking to be freed from their afflictions. As a retirerd teacher, I had seen the devistateing consequenses that occured to children that were ridiculed or demeaned because of their race, religion, national origen, sexual orrientation, handicap, appearance, manner, etc. etc. I have seen adults abused in the same manner and also experianced hurt from these type of refferences. I believe that in order to overcome our mental health afflictions that we must be free from any shackles of a stigma attached to us and others. I beleive that we must have the liberty of [equality]. Then we could say, {Free at last, free at last, thank God almighty, I am Free at Last.}
Lou
Posted by NikkiT2 on February 1, 2003, at 9:17:34
In reply to Re: I will stick to deadly dull subjects from now on.. » IsoM, posted by Lou Pilder on February 1, 2003, at 8:22:26
For heavens sake.. everyone, everwhere is subject to some kind of "racism", whether they're black, white, purple, orange, English, American or what ever.
I am a white English female, living in England. Every time I use my local shops I have faced with racism for being this... I live in an area that has a large Muslim population and as such, I am not even able to shop in some of my local shops without receiving some kind of abuse for being a western female. I am pushed, I am shoved and I am ignored by shop staff for it.
As I said, I am female.. there are many many jokes about females out there.
But, a joke is a bloody joke.. thats all... I laugh if its funny, I cringe if its not.. but it doesn;t affect my life as I don't think everyone that makes these jokes are out to hurt me in anyway.
When I left school and started my apprenticeship I was the only female. I was "one of the lads", but, as with anything, jokes were made.. some of the jokes were funny. BUT, our managers took it upon themselves to stamp this out, not caring how *I* felt.. and it made matters a million times worse... if these things were just left alone, no one would really care.If we all just sat back and ignored the jokes we didn;t like, no big issue would be made of it, and more people are hurt when issues are made of something.
Just my opinion..
Nikki x
Posted by Phyl on February 1, 2003, at 9:52:13
In reply to Redneck Etiquette Rules, posted by IsoM on January 31, 2003, at 15:19:57
Good Grief, Charlie Brown. We have lost our ability to laugh at ourselves. I am Italian. Nope, we are not all Mafiosos. Our "nicknames" are/were wop, daigo, guinea. So what do those words actually mean? Nothing, as far as I am concerned. (Wop is the noise you hear when an Eye-talian is thrown against a wall. The Ethopians said 'Never let a Daigo by.' If some called me a stupid ass, I might feel bad...Unless I was one at the time. ISO's jokes were a relief from a lot of sadness on the board. Time for this country to lighten up a bit and not take every single thing that is said to task and worry about who might be offended. I don't even know any "rednecks" but I had a good chuckle. I didn't think: Good for you, you redneck!
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