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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Greg A. on January 30, 2003, at 13:09:24
Just reading some of the posts relating to the ever present stigma of mental illness; peoples’ fears about getting jobs, of crowds, and the general lack of confidence in yourself: the type that seems to allow ‘normal’ people to disregard the opinions of others or at least assess them as being wrong and let them go.
I posted some time ago about my experience last fall with hospitalization and ECT for treatment resistant depression. Unfortunately, I felt worse after the series of treatments but decided after five weeks off work, to return. I have held this same job for over 20 years and while I have gone through numerous periods of depression, I have missed very little work time and I think I am generally regarded as being pretty competent at what I do.
My return was complicated by a female coworker with whom I had a five year relationship (Non physical but not through lack of effort on my part!) who decided I was dangerous and phoned the cops. (and also reported this to my boss and another management member)
I have been very open about my depression and the reason for my absence from work, perhaps open to a fault. I forget that most people have a very limited understanding of mental illness and while they tend to treat you pretty normally when you are well they can be very distant when you are not and they think they know the reason. My boss has told me several times that he ‘knows what I am going through.’ He has demonstrated that he doesn’t have a clue. I gave him Kay Jamison’s description of depression from the epilogue of ‘An Unquiet Mind’ which I think he read as if it were a study of alien behaviour on a distant planet. Just to make this a long and boring post here it is:
“Depression is awful beyond words or sounds or images: I would not go through an extended one again. It bleeds relationships through suspicion, lack of confidence and self respect, the inability to enjoy life, to walk or talk or think normally, the exhaustion, the night terrors, the day terrors. There is nothing good to be said for it except that it gives you the experience of how it must be to be old, to be old and sick, to be dying; to be slow of mind; to be ugly; to have no belief in the possibilities of life, the pleasures of sex, the exquisiteness of music, or the ability to make yourself and others laugh.
Others imply that they know what it is like to be depressed because they have gone through a divorce, lost a job, or broken up with someone. But these experiences carry with them feelings. Depression, instead is flat, hollow, and unendurable. It is also tiresome. People cannot abide being around you when you are depressed. They might think that they ought to and they might even try, but you know and they know that you are tedious beyond belief; you are irritable and paranoid and humourless and lifeless and critical and demanding and no reassurance is ever enough. You’re frightened and you’re frightening and you’re “not at all like yourself but will be soon,” but you know you won’t”Anyway – I am now being considered for a move out of this office as part of staff re-organization. I was told that this would be good for me and would help with the uncomfortable situation with the co-worker. Does wonders for my solid sense of self-esteem. I asked my boss if I had returned from oh say . . . back surgery if the results would be the same. No response. To top this all off, I am still extremely depressed, struggling to do my job and to carry on with life. Like many of you I have trouble being around people which makes even going to the coffee room an effort. I know I am overly sensitive to the opinions and actions of others right now but I can’t help but wonder if most of them would be more comfortable if I were moved. They know too much about me and regardless of how long they have known me, it changes the way they now see me. Could I be dangerous just like some of the people you hear about in the news? How do they know if I am ‘cured’?
I do have friends, both at work and outside, but this illness has caused me to distance myself from many people, friends included. I am not very social. I am unhappy. I am often tired and unenthusiastic. Like Ms. Jamison, I feel hollow, flat and devoid of emotions.
There’s no point I am trying to make here. I feel for those of you who are struggling with getting work or staying at work. You are fighting a battle with this illness that most people are ignorant of and sometimes your best is far below where you want it to be. Every setback is temporary, though perhaps necessary, and is due to the illness, not to lack of effort on your part. Look at every small step forward as a major accomplishment – because it is.Greg A.
Posted by justyourlaugh on January 30, 2003, at 15:13:22
In reply to Football , stigma, and divulging your illness, posted by Greg A. on January 30, 2003, at 13:09:24
greg,
i am a stay at home mother and have been doing such a bad job at it lately.
i tried to pull away from them to make it easier for them when i "check out".
today i know how stupid that is.
now i am racked with guilt....
i want to cry but cant....i almost went to the liquior store but did not.
i am empty too.
jyl
Posted by dreamerz on January 30, 2003, at 19:03:41
In reply to Football , stigma, and divulging your illness, posted by Greg A. on January 30, 2003, at 13:09:24
Hi Greg A...
Was wondering what happened to you..I don't have much to say...I guess I'm doing them little steps myself.
I have no one--not even friends now ( I just seem to get moaned at and judged)I can't trust anyone..but a post like yours can re-kindle a little light of faith to still try and live best way no matter what others think
Take care.
Posted by Dinah on January 30, 2003, at 19:44:14
In reply to Football , stigma, and divulging your illness, posted by Greg A. on January 30, 2003, at 13:09:24
Hi Greg,
I'm so glad to see you posting again, although I'm sorry the news is not better. How do *you* feel about the prospect of changing locations? I am always astonished to read about this attitude in this day and age. I guess I'm relatively lucky.
Posted by judy1 on January 31, 2003, at 10:10:20
In reply to Football , stigma, and divulging your illness, posted by Greg A. on January 30, 2003, at 13:09:24
Well my first reaction is this 'restructuring' is illegal and I would speak to an attorney about it. I know when you're depressed it's difficult to muster the anger you need to fight the obvious ignorance that's going on in your work-place, but please try. I know my from my husband's company that people have successfully kept their jobs or were offered settlements when they threatened to sue. I wish you all the best- judy
Posted by bluedog on January 31, 2003, at 10:54:09
In reply to Football , stigma, and divulging your illness, posted by Greg A. on January 30, 2003, at 13:09:24
Greg
I would have to agree with what Judy said in her post. I had exactly the same problems at my work with managers who said they understood but by their actions clearly demonstrated that they didn't.
It was amazing how nice they suddenly became towards me when they realised that I both knew my rights and was willing to stand up for them. At my work we have a HR manager that eventually admitted to me that he knew diddly about depression and had not even had any training in the area (I think this is disgraceful for a professional HR manager)
I actually made an appointment to speak to the CEO about my concerns...I did this in a very non-confrontational way but I did "innocently" ask her for her "advice" as to whether she considered that I may need to seek legal advice or go to the union about some of the concerns I had. I then sent an email to the CEO confirming in writing what we had discussed and cc'd a copy of this email to my direct manager, my area director and to the HR manager. I made sure to mention that I had fulfilled all MY legal obligations and internal policy requirements in keeping my employer fully informed about my illness. I know they were absolutely shell shocked that I had gone straight over all their heads as they were so used to being able to just push me around. I must say I was very proud of myself.
I don't know what happened after that but my HR manager has been as nice as pie to me ever since and actually called me up at home on one of my sick days to apologise for some of the "misunderstandings" that had occurred in our past communications.
BUT most of all do NOT be ashamed about your condition. It took me a long time to get past this feeling of guilt and shame but as soon as people clearly see that you are not ashamed about your condition and are willing to stand up for your rights you will be amazed that in general they will start treating you much more "normally" again. Just remember that there will however always be some true assholes in this world that won't give a damn.
If you don't feel up to the approach I took (and I only took this approach because they had finally pushed me too with some of the things they did and said to me and I was extremely angry at the time) I would at the very least make an appointment to see your local union rep to be fully informed about your rights in your particular situation.
Good Luck and regards
bluedog
Posted by jay on January 31, 2003, at 11:27:26
In reply to Football , stigma, and divulging your illness, posted by Greg A. on January 30, 2003, at 13:09:24
Folks,This may sound completely backwards...and I really don't have the 'answer'. But, I have found that not divulging even an 'inch' of info about myself to anybody except my closest friends, in particular at work, makes things the best and easiest for me. I share little, if nothing, when I can, involving the actual 'work' I do. I know it sounds lousy, and backwards, but my thought of my job is, I go in and do my work to get my money, and I go home. And this is coming from a guy who is in social work!
See, I used to be "Mr. VERY Open", and talked about most things with almost everybody, but now it is only a VERY select person or two. That's because I got twisted, mangeled, and had everything and any little thing used against me. People and their politics at work...it's just horrific! People can be (even the best of people!) and often are judgmental, uptight, anal, highly conservative and narrow-minded.
OK..maybe it sounds pessimistic and negative, but it will keep you from getting 'burnt'..and getting 'burned out'. You can still be funny, warm, and nice, and not be rude about things, but taking this 'actively passive' role I think is healthiest for us with mental illness issues. It can also keep us sane in the craziest of places. Forget trying to 'people please'...and be 'charming'...worry about yourself and being good to yourself. Keep people guessing...don't reveal *anything*..and they will NEVER have anything on you!
Jay
Posted by wendy b. on January 31, 2003, at 16:06:02
In reply to 'Rock' solid...-----all, posted by jay on January 31, 2003, at 11:27:26
You know, Jay, I think every situation is different. I never came out and told anyone at my former job that I had depression/anxiety/bipolar, but, when I took two months off on short-term disability, I provided them with all the proper doctor's notes and forms that were required. Still, when I came back and asked for accommodations, they refused me (this was an Ivy-League university), and then they put enough letters of warning in my file for being "recalcitrant" and "insubordinate" that they then had their pretext for firing me. You'd have thought people at a university would know better, but they don't, they're no more enlightened than anybody else - in fact, I think even less so.
I had reservations about telling everybody that I has my particular illnesses, because I was afraid of being stigmatized. I don't really think this is cowardly, just self-protective, given my circumstances and the particular people I had to deal with.
So now I'm sueing them for flagrant violations of the ADA. The person who supervised me (a department chair) said under oath that she had *never* been trained in ADA. This is someone who managed a lot of people, including faculty. Then the VP for HR there said point-blank, under oath, that they didn't even offer it to chairs, and just posting the provisions of the ADA on the university web site was enough... Amazing!Anyway, for more info, look at the thread above:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20030120/msgs/35945.html
Take care,
Wendy
>
> Folks,
>
> This may sound completely backwards...and I really don't have the 'answer'. But, I have found that not divulging even an 'inch' of info about myself to anybody except my closest friends, in particular at work, makes things the best and easiest for me. I share little, if nothing, when I can, involving the actual 'work' I do. I know it sounds lousy, and backwards, but my thought of my job is, I go in and do my work to get my money, and I go home. And this is coming from a guy who is in social work!
>
> See, I used to be "Mr. VERY Open", and talked about most things with almost everybody, but now it is only a VERY select person or two. That's because I got twisted, mangeled, and had everything and any little thing used against me. People and their politics at work...it's just horrific! People can be (even the best of people!) and often are judgmental, uptight, anal, highly conservative and narrow-minded.
>
> OK..maybe it sounds pessimistic and negative, but it will keep you from getting 'burnt'..and getting 'burned out'. You can still be funny, warm, and nice, and not be rude about things, but taking this 'actively passive' role I think is healthiest for us with mental illness issues. It can also keep us sane in the craziest of places. Forget trying to 'people please'...and be 'charming'...worry about yourself and being good to yourself. Keep people guessing...don't reveal *anything*..and they will NEVER have anything on you!
>
> Jay
Posted by bluedog on January 31, 2003, at 21:31:01
In reply to 'Rock' solid...-----all, posted by jay on January 31, 2003, at 11:27:26
Hi Jay
I tend to agree with you to a point and until recently work did not know about my depression. Unfortunately I had no choice but to divulge my illness to work when I became so ill that I needed to take an extended 4 month sick leave period from my job.
I should add that not every colleague I work with knows about my illness but unfortunately those people with the power including my direct manager do know. They are not allowed to divulge this "confidential" information to others but even those supposedly in positions of power are human and end up talking to others on their lunch break about supposedly confidential information.
In relation to people who are NOT entitled to know about my illness and who I also know won't understand about my illness I simply tell these people when they ask (and believe me when you return to work after a 4 month unexplained absence people do ask)that I was suffering from chronic fatigue syndrome (this is true by the way) which led to a "bit" of depression.
I am lucky because my colleagues do not treat me any differently (in fact I suspect a good proportion of them are also suffering from depression and at least two of my colleagues have since admitted to me that they are also on either AD's for depression or Benzo's for anxiety). Although my depression was probably not work related but work conditions did severely aggravate my depression, I believe that the management practices in my organisation (since YES you guessed it....a major restructure)are directly responsible for the high rate of sick leave in my organisation and I'm willing to bet a lot of that sick leave is depression related. The management are under some weird delusion that the new crap computer software they paid squillions of dollars for somehow justifies reducing the amount of staff required to do the job. Believe me this is NOT the case.
I guess, I was lucky because my employer was not aware of my illness until after the restructure was complete, but I would still have fought them every inch of the way if they had known and attempted to sideline me because of my illness.
Wendy, keep us posted. I'd love to hear every sordid detail about how your former bosses will squirm in the witness box under cross examination. I saw a re-run of the movie Philadelphia with Tom Hanks the other night and I hope you get a similar result in court [other than the dying bit at the end of course :) :) ]
warm regards
bluedog
Posted by jay on January 31, 2003, at 23:08:02
In reply to Re: 'Rock' solid » jay, posted by wendy b. on January 31, 2003, at 16:06:02
> You know, Jay, I think every situation is different. I never came out and told anyone at my former job that I had depression/anxiety/bipolar, but, when I took two months off on short-term disability, I provided them with all the proper doctor's notes and forms that were required. Still, when I came back and asked for accommodations, they refused me (this was an Ivy-League university), and then they put enough letters of warning in my file for being "recalcitrant" and "insubordinate" that they then had their pretext for firing me. You'd have thought people at a university would know better, but they don't, they're no more enlightened than anybody else - in fact, I think even less so.
> I had reservations about telling everybody that I has my particular illnesses, because I was afraid of being stigmatized. I don't really think this is cowardly, just self-protective, given my circumstances and the particular people I had to deal with.
> So now I'm sueing them for flagrant violations of the ADA. The person who supervised me (a department chair) said under oath that she had *never* been trained in ADA. This is someone who managed a lot of people, including faculty. Then the VP for HR there said point-blank, under oath, that they didn't even offer it to chairs, and just posting the provisions of the ADA on the university web site was enough... Amazing!
>
> Anyway, for more info, look at the thread above:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20030120/msgs/35945.html
>
> Take care,
>
> Wendy
>Wendy..maybe you are quite right...in that why should we have to cover this up? Man, I feel so torn..and it's like *nobody* will stick up for us (unless we have a million dollars for a good lawyer!). In some ways..like being a captive Jewish person in Nazi Germany. Just this topic get's me so depressed about chances of surviving in the world out there again. I am very glad you stood up..and where so very brave. I hope the best for you...
Sincerely,
Jay
Posted by jay on January 31, 2003, at 23:16:02
In reply to Re: 'Rock' solid - Wendy and » jay, posted by bluedog on January 31, 2003, at 21:31:01
bluedog...please check out my message above to Wendy. After thinking about it for awhile...I dunno...like why should we have to "keep quiet" like it's some sort of shameful secret? Please.. no I am not saying anything bad towards you for not divulging. The more I think about it...it's all just horrible. Geeezzzz..how far have we come if we have to hide something like this as some sort of 'dirty secret'?Sorry..I am on a fair bit of a depressed downer tonight...waiting to get into better treatment.
You guys are great to talk to, because nobody else cares. Please let me know how you both make out...
Thanks,
Sincerely,
Jay
Posted by bluedog on January 31, 2003, at 23:51:23
In reply to Re: 'Rock' solid » bluedog, posted by jay on January 31, 2003, at 23:16:02
HEY JAY
Don't worry. Though if your on a downer at the moment I DO know that you will worry regardless but I wanted to reassure you anyway. I COMPLETELY understand both points of view....dislosure and non-disclosure. My initial advice was given to Greg because he has already started down the road of disclosure.
Everyone has to do what they are personally comfortable with. I went with non-disclosure for a long time and would not recommend full disclosure to anyone until they are ready for it and at a point where they are strong enough to face the inevitable consequences. In my case my hand was forced because I had to take 4 months off work but by the time I got back to work I had had plenty of time (and advice from others who had gone through the same thing) that I was strong enough to handle it. Funny thing is that once you do reach the point where you are strong enough to disclose your illness people will sense that strength and generally won't treat you any differently. I think it's only when they sense that you yourself may be ashamed that they will treat you funny. But it's a funny illness and even now I sometimes get a sense of shame about my illness. That's where I take heart from people in the public eye who have the courage to come clean about their illness by shooting straight from the hip with the facts....in other words "I have (or had) this illness....that's how it is...I'm not ashamed....and I don't care what you think about it!!!"
I reckon your non-disclosure is the right way to go if your illness is not affecting your performance at work too much. After all you wouldn't let your boss know that you have genital warts if it's not affecting your work performance because it's none of there goddam business in this circumstance.
Hope you feel better soon....You KNOW you will if you have any sort of experience with this illness. If you live in the US or Canada (especially the East Coast) I'd highly reccommend logging off and getting some sleep because it's too late to be babbling at the moment. It was not until I stopped staying up until 3.00am every night on the internet and started getting reasonable amounts of sleep that I started to improve (even if the sleep is restless it's still better tham staying up too late on the net).
Best wishes
bluedog
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