![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Katt on May 22, 2002, at 13:44:44
I have got a major dilemma.
It finally looks like the clinic for which I was on a waiting list has bumped me up to the top and now they want me in intensive therapy. dbt group once a week, DBT individual once a week, and a psychiatrist. this stuff actually takes up a lot of time considering the lengths of each session (about 1-1/2 hr each) and they said that my committment would require a year -- ONE YEAR.
well, it would have all been peachy. just peachy - a year ago! because my biggest dilemma has been to find a job and what do you know it -- i am being contracted to work with one of the largest corporations in the country. the position is temporary but the pay is decent and will look good on my resume.
but i cant do both. the hospital says that they are strict about following the treatment plan. i asked if i could just see a psychiatrist to continue with my medications and they refused! i am not turning down the job because its what i want. but if i dont go through with the treatment plan, but decide to come back in a few months, they wont take me back!! its insane.
what do i do?? do i work so i can pay my rent?? or do i not work (though i dont know how i will pay my rent and bills), but oh, my demons might be cured???
Posted by AliI on May 22, 2002, at 14:00:07
In reply to Do I work or get treatment???, posted by Katt on May 22, 2002, at 13:44:44
I vote for treatment Katt.
Find me on messenger and I'll go into why.
((Katt))
Aliiiiiiiiiieeeeeee I'm a bit flipped out
Posted by susan C on May 22, 2002, at 14:40:29
In reply to Do I work or get treatment???, posted by Katt on May 22, 2002, at 13:44:44
Hi
You present a real de lima bean. Here are a number of questions, which you may take and see if they help.Do you have an advocate, someone you trust, on a day to day basis, to help you think through your health/work issues? For me it is my spouse. It could be a GP and or in the case of signing a business contract, an attorney. They are bound by confidentiality rules, so that is good. It is hard to find one who will be qualified and patience to listen. I sometimes write a letter to clarify my thoughts first.
The 'contract'. This can mean many things in regular language. In employment language, it usually means you are responsible for your own hours and getting the work done. When I read your description, I thought, hmmm, maybe you could schedule around your 'other' commitments and be able to do both?
It sounds like the clinic is in high demand and also has found what works. They may also have experience just in the delimea you are presenting. have you talked to the 'admissions' people? Sometimes talking to more than one person, to be sure you are getting all the information is good, like triangulating. And writing a letter for you and for the person you are seeing which contains your concerns.
One of the questions might be, I have this situation (as in your post above) what kind of support will you give me during this commitment of a year, to help me keep my job and continue treatment.
Now, just an aside from a mousey old mouse, I dont know all the details of your situation, i read your post and felt maybe some of the things i thought about might be of help. I can't tell you what to do. I can only share with you what I might do if I were in your situation. And, I know it would be hard. Like it would be hard for someone with two broken legs to drag themselves 5 miles.
I will be glad to talk over anything you would like. The combination of mental illess and work is a very hard combination.
mouse offering a paw
Posted by Katt on May 22, 2002, at 22:30:26
In reply to Re: Do I work or get treatment???, posted by susan C on May 22, 2002, at 14:40:29
omigosh, susan, i am freaking out. i dont have anyone....no one. not a good friend, not a soul mate, not a companion. i have no one to go to. my feeling was that getting a job would solve all my problems. now i am being told otherwise. i am clueless. i guess i could call my internist and talk to him...he is always good to me.
but you know what? with the options i have right now, i know what i am inclined to do. doesnt keep me from freaking out though.
Posted by ALII on May 22, 2002, at 22:45:24
In reply to Freaking out!! » susan C, posted by Katt on May 22, 2002, at 22:30:26
Katt,
Then do that hon. Sounds like you would get unvarnished advice from internist tho....
You are not clueless like you say...you are just in midst of major decision. Big difference dear.
With most kindness I can muster up in my darkening soul,
alii
Posted by Katt on May 23, 2002, at 10:20:42
In reply to Re: Do I work or get treatment???, posted by susan C on May 22, 2002, at 14:40:29
> The combination of mental illess and work is a very hard combination.
>you know....i never think of it that way. i never think that i am mentally ill. i tend to believe that i am not. i compete with people that are not. yet often i wonder, is life really this difficult for everyone? and if the difficulties i am having are a result of mental illness, why is it so chronic? and why is it ok to have physical illnesses that go away? or disabilities that can be worked around? but not with mental illness, if thats what i have. it makes me crazy. it makes me crazy that the guy in the cube next to mine is not constantly freaking out over things or late cuz he cant get out of bed, or drugged up by meds.
why does it have to be so hard?
Posted by Katt on May 23, 2002, at 10:22:49
In reply to ...i know what i am inclined to do...., posted by ALII on May 22, 2002, at 22:45:24
> Katt,
>
> Then do that hon. Sounds like you would get unvarnished advice from internist tho....
>
> You are not clueless like you say...you are just in midst of major decision. Big difference dear.
>
> With most kindness I can muster up in my darkening soul,
>
> aliiAlii, i hope you are better. thank you for supporting me. i know what you think is best for me. i think though, i may take the other route and delay tx.
Posted by krazy kat on May 23, 2002, at 12:01:28
In reply to mental illness and work » susan C, posted by Katt on May 23, 2002, at 10:20:42
>
> > The combination of mental illess and work is a very hard combination.
> >-- Mouse is so wise, isn't she, Katt? I am applying for disability soon, much to my pride's chagrin.
I which I knew which road is the best, how to resolve this very difficult conundrum. I vote for a talk with your internist for now.
Take care.
- kk
Posted by mair on May 23, 2002, at 15:00:56
In reply to Re: mental illness and work » Katt, posted by krazy kat on May 23, 2002, at 12:01:28
Katt
I've never faced precisely the same decision but there have certainly been many instances where it was pretty clear that work was putting too much stress on me and interfering with my ability to get better or sustain any kind of remission. (still probably true) I've had a couple of different therapists push me to change jobs or to take a leave or even quit. Work has always won out because I was afraid I wouldn't know what to do with myself if I didn't work, or I thought I needed the money too much, or I didn't want to disconnect myself from my professional identity, or I didn't feel that I could leave without getting caught up first (what a trap that is!) or in whatever my state was at the time, it seemed to take more energy to proactively leave rather than to just passively stay. I think the underpinning of all of my conflicts on this issue has been my reluctance to accept that my illness does limit me.
However, depression has become a very chronic problem for me and I've been living in a world of pdocs, therapists and meds and insurance claims for too many years now. I feel more than a little resentful every time I read about how treatable depression is and how someone "licked" depression after a few months of meds and 6 months of therapy. I have certainly wondered whether things might have been different if I had just quit my job when i first got depressed, and spent some time doing nothing other than trying to take care of myself and getting better.
Your post seemed to suggest that by working, you wouldn't be making yourself worse, you'd just maybe give up an opportunity to get better more quickly. Any similar decision for me would have to include an analysis of whether the job would impose additional pressures that might make things worse. My work place is filled with depression triggers. Maybe yours is not, but I think you should at least give that some consideration.
Mair
Posted by Katt on May 23, 2002, at 16:27:38
In reply to Re: mental illness and work, posted by mair on May 23, 2002, at 15:00:56
> Katt
>
> I've never faced precisely the same decision but there have certainly been many instances where it was pretty clear that work was putting too much stress on me and interfering with my ability to get better or sustain any kind of remission. (still probably true) I've had a couple of different therapists push me to change jobs or to take a leave or even quit. Work has always won out because I was afraid I wouldn't know what to do with myself if I didn't work, or I thought I needed the money too much, or I didn't want to disconnect myself from my professional identity, or I didn't feel that I could leave without getting caught up first (what a trap that is!) or in whatever my state was at the time, it seemed to take more energy to proactively leave rather than to just passively stay. I think the underpinning of all of my conflicts on this issue has been my reluctance to accept that my illness does limit me.And that bothers me so much!!! i know that when i am at my worst, i can't work..in fact, i get nothing done. i am even known to sit at my desk and cry.
> However, depression has become a very chronic problem for me and I've been living in a world of pdocs, therapists and meds and insurance claims for too many years now. I feel more than a little resentful every time I read about how treatable depression is and how someone "licked" depression after a few months of meds and 6 months of therapy. I have certainly wondered whether things might have been different if I had just quit my job when i first got depressed, and spent some time doing nothing other than trying to take care of myself and getting better.
>
those reports make me sick. as for staying home to take care of myself...how would i do that without income? my dilemma is a little different in that i just received a graduate degree six months ago and still have not found a job. i'm not eligible for unemployment because i have been living off a part-time shoe-string. i need experience in my field and while there are no jobs, this contracted position has come up.> Your post seemed to suggest that by working, you wouldn't be making yourself worse, you'd just maybe give up an opportunity to get better more quickly.
are you saying that by working, i am just going to keep getting worse?
>Any similar decision for me would have to include an analysis of whether the job would impose additional pressures that might make things worse. My work place is filled with depression triggers. Maybe yours is not, but I think you should at least give that some consideration.
>
workplaces -- regardless of the workplace, it has triggers in it for me all over the place. but the big question remains - if i were to decide to choose treatment (and at this point it is very intensive in terms of amount) how would i work? and if i am not working, how do i pay my bills?
Posted by Mair on May 23, 2002, at 21:56:29
In reply to Re: mental illness and work » mair, posted by Katt on May 23, 2002, at 16:27:38
Katt
I hope you don't think I was minimizing the money issue. It's obviously very real and certainly has been a factor for me. I'm not the sole support of anyone, including myself. I probably could have quit for awhile anyway, but it would have meant asking others to make sacrifices or putting alot more money pressure on my spouse, and I just didn't ever feel like I could ask for that.
I sort of trudged along as best as I could which in many cases was not good at all. I used to wander into my office, shut the door, and spend most of the day staring out the window. It seemed like I spent all of my time moving the same piece of paper from one side of my desk to another. I'm in a business of which I'm part owner so no one showed me the door, but it very definitely affected my production and my income. The larger problem is that working like that really diminished my own view of myself and I'm not sure I've ever recovered from that.
Would it be at all possible for you to find a different job which would allow you to keep body and soul together and still do this intensive program? I know this would mean a lesser job, probably unrelated to your degree, but doing something a little less pressured might not be such a bad idea.
I don't mean to influence you one way or the other, and there are obviously no easy answers. I'd hate to give up on a great job opportunity for a program that didn't prove to be so great, and of course I'd hate to do anything that might worsen my illness (although of course I've done plenty of that), particularly if it turned out that the job wasn't so great. You have to weigh these things yourself and factor in your own capabilities. I just know that for me anyway, part of being sick is that I don't see that i have other alternatives than the very grim ones I've painted for myself.
Mair
Posted by Katt on May 23, 2002, at 23:17:22
In reply to Re: mental illness and work » Katt, posted by Mair on May 23, 2002, at 21:56:29
first, i just learned that as of june 14, i will lose my measly part time job. second, the job that i thought i was getting, the one that would have been wonderful and so on, looks like is going to fall through for me. they told me that i might be too "light" for the position. essentially, in the 10 months that i have been looking for work, i still have no real world work experience. now, i am feeling deadly. why does this happen to me?? how am i going to support myself? how am i supposed to live????
> Katt
>
> I hope you don't think I was minimizing the money issue. It's obviously very real and certainly has been a factor for me.i never considered you to be minimizing the money issue.
I'm not the sole support of anyone, including myself. I probably could have quit for awhile anyway, but it would have meant asking others to make sacrifices or putting alot more money pressure on my spouse, and I just didn't ever feel like I could ask for that.
>
i have no one to help me out...at all. its just me. no one else. my mom pleads with me to move back home, but that is the very place i vowed to never return. its painful, restrictive, dysfunctional. going back there will also demonstrate that i failed at being independent.
> The larger problem is that working like that really diminished my own view of myself and I'm not sure I've ever recovered from that.
>
you know what....i dont even know that i would be up to working if i were to have a serious job. i feel like death 24hrs a day. when things go wrong at work, i am not afraid to slip into the bathroom and hurt myself. but there is no net. nothing to save people that are falling apart from ending up on the streets.
> Would it be at all possible for you to find a different job which would allow you to keep body and soul together and still do this intensive program? I know this would mean a lesser job, probably unrelated to your degree, but doing something a little less pressured might not be such a bad idea.
>
i've tried applying to jobs in retail, basic office work, administrative assistants, etc, etc, but i get nothing. no responses. not even a call. those that do usually tell me they couldnt hire me because i'm overqualified. those within my field say i am underqualified. i've done everything in the last 10 months. i am started to feel drained and wasted.> I don't mean to influence you one way or the other, and there are obviously no easy answers. I'd hate to give up on a great job opportunity for a program that didn't prove to be so great, and of course I'd hate to do anything that might worsen my illness (although of course I've done plenty of that), particularly if it turned out that the job wasn't so great.
you are influencing me one way or the other. i am asking for the advice and feedback because i need it. but right now, it looks as though i am unemployed and i am not happy about that at all. i had a trickle of income before. now, i dont. and the tx program worries me. they assigned me to a woman that seems pretty unavailable outside of office time. plus she is just a trainee. remember, this is free care. its not the best. i am even having trouble getting my meds filled.
i realized today, that as long as i am alive, i will be unhappy. why does it seem like there has never been a point in my life where i was not anxious or worried or sad or treated unfairly? am i whining? i cannot recall a moment in my life where i was content. i just wish i was dead.
Posted by mair on May 24, 2002, at 7:28:13
In reply to Now it looks like I won't even get it! » Mair, posted by Katt on May 23, 2002, at 23:17:22
Katt
If you don't mind my asking, what were you studying in graduate school? Also what was your work history before you went to graduate school? Did you go straight from college? Also, it would help if you maybe expained a little more to me about the treatment program - like how much time it will actually consume and what it involves.
I hope you don't think me too nosy - I'm just trying to understand as much about your situation as I possibly can.
Thanks
Mair
Posted by k9lover on May 24, 2002, at 7:30:02
In reply to Re: mental illness and work » Katt, posted by Mair on May 23, 2002, at 21:56:29
Interesting discussion...
I took a 1.5 year leave from my job and discovered that the outside world is a far better place then here. Took me two hours last night to get out of a paralyzed state after finishing up here.
I had a pnurse when on the psych ward last year strongly encourage me to get my life settled - work can come second. And I tend to believe that is true - but man it's hard...
In my own case, I've requested a transfer away from my temporary supervisor (who is an alcohol and drug addict and a very difficult person to deal with - duh) which might come through today. That will at least hopefully put a little bounce back into my steps.
Tough one though...
Posted by KB on May 24, 2002, at 9:18:41
In reply to Re: Now it looks like I won't even get it! » Katt, posted by mair on May 24, 2002, at 7:28:13
Katt, I don't know where you are geographically, but in many places there are nonprofit organizations that provide "supportive housing" for the mentally ill. The one I am most familiar with helps people apply for disability and then takes a percentage of that as the rent. A program like that might help with the money situation.
Also, it's not very honest, but you could leave your graduate degree off when you apply for jobs so you don't look so overqualified. The school you went to might also have a career office - sometimes they can be helpful.
I know my own experience of working while depressed was pretty painful -I had worked for this place for years, and as I got more and more depressed I wound up crying all the time - in the stairwell, meetings with my boss, at my desk. My office was on the sixth floor and I was constantly thinking about jumping out the window - even got as far as putting my foot on the ledge. Finally I quit and spent the summer at home before starting my new job - I really needed the time off to get myself together.
Posted by Angel Girl on May 24, 2002, at 9:58:05
In reply to Re: Now it looks like I won't even get it!, posted by KB on May 24, 2002, at 9:18:41
I am in a similiar situation. Hopefully I am soon going to be in a program that involves the same things as you mention. It sounds like it will take 2 or 3 days a week out of my work week. I'm not quite sure yet until I get further through the admitions process.
I have a full time job that I've had for about 4 years. I have already taken short term disability, gone back to work and currently on the 'back to work' program, and now I've been off again for another month. I'm hoping I can get back to work next week, which means I'll be on the 'back to work' program again, which means I work a graduated process of working myself up to the 37.5hrs I should be working. I will probably be starting out by working 2 days per week.
Because this process has been going on for 1/2 year now, my employer is in the process of switching me over to long term disability until my treatments are complete and I am capable of working full time hours for an extended period of time, without having anymore setbacks.
Due to the program I'm in the process of getting into, I forsee myself on long term disability for quite awhile, maybe a few years.
My problem is that I do NOT make enough money to pay my bills on this. Within a few months I will be homeless.
So, I sorta have the same problem as you, do I get the treatment I desperately need or do I try to go to work everyday even though up to this point I have not been very successful at that???
Work vs treatment. What is the answer????
Sorry Katt, I wish I could help you, I've got the same problem except that yours sounds more immediate than mine except that my bank account is dwindling down rapidly and I see no answer to my problem either. :( I think I saw somebody ask you if you could work your work hours of the contract position around your treatment but I didn't see a reply from you.
Is there nobody here who has ever had to deal with this MAJOR issue of money to pay the rent vs getting the treatment we need to get well?????
Looking for advice too. I wish you the best of luck Katt. I'd like to hear the outcome of what you end up deciding to do.
Angel Girl
Posted by Katt on May 24, 2002, at 11:31:31
In reply to Re: Now it looks like I won't even get it! » Katt, posted by mair on May 24, 2002, at 7:28:13
I have an undergrad in experimental psychology and studio art. Then I worked for 2.5 years as a computer programmer but had to go on disability. Then I went to grad school and got a masters in computer science with a concentration in HCI. So I do graphic design, GUI design, user testing, evaluations, web stuff, learning apps, etc etc etc. It took me about 1.5 yrs to finish the program cuz i ripped through it. but i also had a part time research assistanship while in school that gave me all the experience i need in the field. then i got a faculty position the term after i finished the program with the university i went to. i loved doing that. but that lasted for one quarter cuz enrollment went down. i'm supposed to have a course in the fall tho.
>Also, it would help if you maybe expained a little more to me about the treatment program - like how much time it will actually consume and what it involves.the treatment program is through a major university's hospital. the city i live in is divided into catch areas for community centers. i live the program's community center catch area. all the people that work there are trainees. i have bpd and my track record shows it. i never discuss it cuz i've had therapists say they wouldnt treat me after seeing the dx. supposedly the best form of treatment for bpd is dbt. i've tried dbt before and it just wasnt compatible with me. i couldnt do it. in fact, when i spoke to the therapist that does dbt at the hospital's program, she became reluctant to see me and asked if i'd considered residential tx! huh?? anyhow, i am supposed to see her once a week for individual dbt, be in a dbt group once a week that she leads, and go to the medication clinic. i have no idea what that involves. my experiences with medication however, have included pancreatitis, two week insomnias, chronic diahreaha/constipation, dehydration, and even rectal hemmorhaging. i could go on, but typically if i am on a new/different med, drs have to check in with me nearly every day. also, if they end up calling my internist, they'll probably make me see a nutritionist. so i am looking at 2-4 days a week of frickin treatment. treatment that probably wont work. and i was annoyed talking to the therapist. you can usually tell (at least i can) whether or not you can work with someone from a phone call.
anyhow, it looks like i wont be getting the job. there was another candidate who has tons of corporate experience and i have none. mine is all academia. i have a modeling contract -- maybe i'll try to work out something with that.
i dont mind the questions. ask away.
Posted by Katt on May 24, 2002, at 11:55:48
In reply to Re: Now it looks like I won't even get it!, posted by Angel Girl on May 24, 2002, at 9:58:05
>>> I think I saw somebody ask you if you could work your work hours of the contract position around your treatment but I didn't see a reply from you.
i actually sorta did respond to this.....the contract position is out in the far suburbs. i live in the midst of the city and the hospital is also in the middle of the city. the scheduling of the program is set, so i cant change that. but it takes about 1 1/2 hrs to get to the suburb. takes the same length of time to come back. so it would be impossible to go to work in the morning, taking a 4 hour lunch break 2 or 3 days a week, and take the trip back home. see the dilemma? if i were at the place already, maybe i could work something out. but its too much to ask of a new employer.
Posted by Angel Girl on May 24, 2002, at 13:12:26
In reply to Re: Now it looks like I won't even get it! » Angel Girl, posted by Katt on May 24, 2002, at 11:55:48
Katt
I noticed in one of your replies that you have bpd. That's what my program is for too. What state do you live in? How far have you gone through the admitions procedure? What is your next step?
I'm very sorry that you won't be getting the job you were looking at. Maybe you should find out more what time the program would be taking and then find a job to work around your treatment.
Angel Girl
Posted by Katt on May 24, 2002, at 13:44:17
In reply to Re: Now it looks like I won't even get it! - Katt, posted by Angel Girl on May 24, 2002, at 13:12:26
> Katt
>
> I noticed in one of your replies that you have bpd. That's what my program is for too. What state do you live in? How far have you gone through the admitions procedure? What is your next step?DBT - i've been in it before and it sucks. Its a silly program with silly terminology. i was in a program for two weeks but it was too group intensive for me so i had to drop out. i live in Illinois. what about you? in terms of being admitted, they placed me on top of the waiting list because i have such a messy psych history and dont have a psychiatrist or therapist. so i am supposed to meet with the very dull dbt therapist next week.
> I'm very sorry that you won't be getting the job you were looking at. Maybe you should find out more what time the program would be taking and then find a job to work around your treatment.
>i'd rather just have a job where i am making the money i should be making, and paying for the pdoc and therapist I want, not what someone assigns me. I never make it or get along with female shrinks or therapists.
Posted by Angel Girl on May 24, 2002, at 14:41:53
In reply to Re: Now it looks like I won't even get it! - Katt » Angel Girl, posted by Katt on May 24, 2002, at 13:44:17
Katt
I'm in Toronto, Canada. I haven't even gotten into the program yet. Sooooo much freakin red tape and the waiting list is looooooooooong. Maybe I should call them back and inform them that I just dumped my therapist. I HATE her and I couldn't bear the thought of ever going back to her again. I also don't have a pdoc. I get my meds from my GP and today I find out that he is going to be closing his practice this year. I have been going to him all my life and have such a good relationship with him. What the hell am I supposed to do now???? Not a good day for me. :(
What is that group therapy like? Can you try to describe it to me please.
Angel Girl
Posted by mair on May 24, 2002, at 16:11:54
In reply to Re: Now it looks like I won't even get it! » mair, posted by Katt on May 24, 2002, at 11:31:31
Katt
I'm pretty much the most computer illiterate person I know, but isn't graphic design something you can do on a consulting or "job" basis and something you can do from home? I'm positive that this is not what you had in mind when you sweated out graduate school, but it may enable you to make enough $$ to get by and to stay in the program. I also endorse the idea of another poster - if need be, maybe you should leave the degree off the resume.
It just sounds to me that you really need to take care of yourself right now in the best way that you can. I think this is particularly true when any job you get will be your "first" post-degree. It's not like you've been working for the same emplayer for years who's willing to accommodate for your illness since he remembers how great you were before you were sick. Even in those situations that reserve of good will seems to get used up pretty quickly.
Mair
Again excuse my ignorance, but what's dbt?
This is the end of the thread.
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