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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Angel Girl on April 16, 2002, at 11:30:44
I know I rarely post here, I'm moreso a lurker. I'm struggling with something and was hoping that maybe you could help me out with this. I'm severely depressed and because of that, I don't very often see things from other than my 'wacky' brain. It's extremely difficult for me to see things rationally and 'normal'. Would anybody care to share with me what you feel is the definition of a friend please. And also have you lost friends or have they become more distant because of your depression??? I don't fit into 'normal' society. My so-called 'friends' are walking away from me. I'm beginning to think that MY idea of what a friend is is not realistic or true. So, I'd like to hear, what do YOU think a friend is???? I sincerely hope I'm not intruding where I don't belong. I don't know where I belong anymore, maybe nowhere.
Posted by fiona on April 16, 2002, at 11:52:24
In reply to Definition of a Friend, posted by Angel Girl on April 16, 2002, at 11:30:44
I have been struggling with my ups and downs for most of my life, and like you have lost many a "friend" through this. The only ones I have left at the moment are the real true friends, they are not many, but they are wonderful.
A true friend is someone who loves you cares for you and stands by you when the rest of the world walks away. They accept you for who you are, without questioning or accusing or blaming. The corny saying about friends are the family you choose for yourself is true, a good friend is what your family should be like (although they rarely are). My best friend is kind, loving, generous, fun and honest, but best of all she understands me and she accepts me just the way I am.
Posted by fiona on April 16, 2002, at 11:54:26
In reply to Re: Definition of a Friend, posted by fiona on April 16, 2002, at 11:52:24
A friend is some one you can count on, and trust completely
Posted by beardedlady on April 16, 2002, at 13:21:27
In reply to Re: Definition of a Friend, posted by fiona on April 16, 2002, at 11:54:26
I agree with the posts above, but when I am feeling like crap, what kind of company am I? I don't like being around myself, so why should I expect others to like me? I have been weepy and whiney for months at a time, and I bring everyone around me down. It's not fair to them, either.
We are responsible, in some part, for making them WANT to stick by us. We all have crises, and a good friend would recognize that and be supportive, nurturing, loving. But even the very best friend might feel like her energy is being sucked out of her. (I'm certain that's what happened with one of my friends, and I also know it's happened to me.)
beardy : )>
Posted by paxvox2000 on April 16, 2002, at 20:24:28
In reply to Definition of a Friend, posted by Angel Girl on April 16, 2002, at 11:30:44
Friend: Someone who accepts you as you are, where you are. This doesn't mean you can walk all over them, or that they won't have hard words for you at times.
True Friend: Someone who will hold your head while you get sick in the bathroom. Someone who will hold you in their arms when you have lost a loved one.
Loving Friend: Someone who would rather suffer themselves than see you suffer, who would lay down their life to save yours.
Do they exist? Sure! Easy to find? No. That is what makes them special.
PAX
Posted by Angel Girl on April 16, 2002, at 21:23:47
In reply to Re: Definition of a Friend » Angel Girl, posted by paxvox2000 on April 16, 2002, at 20:24:28
I know I'm not an easy person to be with because of my depression. I don't find it easy to be with myself either. I guess I have sucked the life out of my friends. One by one they are abandoning me. I only have two friends left. I cherish their friendships deeply. My lack of self-esteem wonders when they'll leave me too. The last straw for my other friends was my last suicide attempt about 3 weeks ago. Things drastically changed at that point. All I've ever wanted in life is to feel loved. I don't think I'm ever going to achieve that. But how can I expect anybody else to love me when I don't love myself. I'm soooooo tired of living like this. Life has nothing for me anymore. I'm not sure it ever did. All I ever feel is heartbreak and pain. I have no fight left in me.
Angel Girl
Posted by beardedlady on April 17, 2002, at 6:27:03
In reply to Re: Definition of a Friend, posted by Angel Girl on April 16, 2002, at 21:23:47
First of all, don't even THINK about abandoning us. We need you.
I am going to ramble a bit. I usually don't write like this, but I want to say a bunch of stuff. I've read many of your posts and think you're terrific. I want you to know that you are loved.
Don't believe for a moment that loving yourself is a requirement before others can love you. It's simply not true. It's lots of psychospeak mumbo jumbo from talk shows. Plenty of people out there with low self-esteem are loved. And people with low self-esteem know how to love.
Be sure to tell your friends how much you value and appreciate them. Make sure they know you love them.
I know you lost a few friends because of your recent suicide attempt, but did you lose them because they are not true friends? Did you lose them because they do not love you?
Think about the pain you're in now, and then think about the pain of grieving for someone you love. They are different pains, but they are maddening. Grief is the worst feeling I have ever had in my life.
I think about all those people who raise puppies until they are one year old, only to give them to a blind person, to selflessly part with that most amazing animal love after constant hard work and companionship. And then I think of those who could never do that, nor could they adopt a dog with a terminal illness, because the pain of loss would be too great. I couldn't.
These are both types of friends. And maybe the ones you lost were ones who couldn't bear losing you. Does that make sense?
My mom's best friend started dating a man whose wife died of cancer. Shortly after they began dating, my mom's friend was diagnosed with cancer. She was getting treatment and had a chance to get better. But when it seemed hopeless, he left her. He didn't stop supporting her or calling her or loving her, but he ended his relationship with her. He couldn't do this again--not with another lover. He couldn't bear seeing another lover in pain. Losing, for him, negated the rewards of loving.
See, you are not unloveable. But some people love differently. My guess is that the friends you still have are the less selfish ones. They will stick by you.
But we do need to see how our pain affects others and how the loss of us causes pain. Suicide is not an aspirin. It doesn't end the pain; in fact, it only spreads the pain. Look at this board! Look at all who have suffered the loss of Sar. And they didn't even know what she looked like! Sure, they'll go on. But that pain will always be there, added to the other pains of life.
You are having a bad patch now. (I am having one, too. I am crying right now, and I haven't cried since--well, a couple of months when I lost a pregnancy. I am having to take sleeping pills again, which I consider this great horrible devil weakness that makes me less of a person. Sounds a bit stupid, huh?)
So think of it as a bad patch on a long and mostly newly paved road. Every road sign is another person who loves you, another coping tool you can use, another, oh, I don't know, pretty flower. (Our lilacs are in full bloom, and the scent is absolutely heavenly!)
Life is powerful. Consider this a journey that's a little painful at times, a little more challenging than you'd like. Eventually, though, you'll find it--you'll find the right combination of meds, of vitamins, of God or ungod, of dog and cat. Eventually, you'll get it, and it'll be so great you will wonder how you were ever at this place.
I have not had my morning coffee, yet, which is sitting in the Melita for the last 20 minutes while I write, worried about you. And worried a little about me.
Please take good care of yourself right now. And take care of your friends, too. They need water and a little sunlight.
Love,
Beardy : )>
p.s. I am at: the underscore great underscore bearded underscore one at yahoo dot com. My pep talks are usually much peppier than this!
Posted by Fi on April 17, 2002, at 8:27:25
In reply to But we love you, A.G! » Angel Girl, posted by beardedlady on April 17, 2002, at 6:27:03
That's such a great message!
Also thinking of *you* at a difficult time. Take care- you're also loved on this Board!
Fi
Posted by Fi on April 17, 2002, at 8:36:00
In reply to Definition of a Friend, posted by Angel Girl on April 16, 2002, at 11:30:44
Some great things said already.
I just wanted to add a few things. First is, thank you for posting! You sounded uncertain about doing it, but such questions are certainly our 'patch'.
I had a friend who dropped me completely the first time I was ill, in quite a calculated way (he guessed I was going to be 'hard work' and didnt want the hassle). I would still say he was a good friend before- great fun. But I guess there are a lot of people who arent willing or able to cope with the bad times as well as the good.
My best friend is a very good friend- but she cant cope with me when I am depressed/anxious either. I think its that she doesnt know what to *do*, and is the kind of person that has to feel they can do something. And is not into expression of negative emotion. She continues to be someone I can talk about anything to, when I am well.
I also wanted to say that it can be useful to have some a good therapist/pdoc or whoever when you are going thru a hard time, like now for you. Gives you somewhere supportive when you can say exactly how terrible you feel etc etc without worrying about whether you are being 'good company'. As well as having friends, of course, not instead.
Take care.
Fi
Posted by ST on April 18, 2002, at 3:43:04
In reply to But we love you, A.G! » Angel Girl, posted by beardedlady on April 17, 2002, at 6:27:03
Angel Girl!
I'm glad you're lurking. I had no idea of your attempt three weeks ago. I'm glad you're still here! I've been very busy and so have not been frequenting the board as much...
Beardy has brought up some great points in her posts.I have 2 friends who I have lost and gained back again. We've left each other when our depressions have gotten the best of us. One friend simply would not get help and continued with the same self-abusive behaviour over and over and over. I stood by her through thick and thin, midnight calls and all...finally I had to leave her because she began taking things out on me. My life became worse because she refused ot get better. I drew the line finally and left. She now says this - among some other things, of course -helped her to grow in ways she perhaps could not have if I had stayed around and enabled her in her depression-laden state of being. She picked up and moved to a new state, changed careers....a year later she contacted me and we started our friendship again. At another point, she told me she couldn't be party to my repetitive destructive depressions anymore; I had to get help. She pretty much picked up the phone and dialed the number of a mental health center for me. I consider her a great friend.
Another friend was not supportive to me in my times of need. She was so depressed and in need and I was depressed and in need...it was as if we cancelled each other out. We were not there for ourselves OR each other! We parted and 2 years later, came back together after having gotten professional help. She is my best friend.
I don't hold it against these women. And at *this* point in our lives, we would be able to stand by each other much more than before. But at the time, that's how it had to be.
Among so many other things, a friend is someone who grows as you grow and does not judge. A friend knows when to kick you in the ass or when to over look your folly and you need to simply be comforted. A friend will be totally honest with you if it's necessary, even when it hurts. A friend won't dwell on the small ways the two of you misunderstand or make each other angry. A friend will expect you to have the utmost respect for yourself and for you to take care of yourself. A friend will want and deserve the respect and caring back.
I could go on...but I'll become a damn Hallmark card. The thing is, are you repeating patterns over and over again? If you are, is this becoming frustrating to your friends? Are you hurting yourself and others over and over? Each time you do, do you learn from it and grow? Or do you back track...or stay in the place where you've been? Why exactly have these friends "left"? And are they really gone for good? It can become really painful to watch a friend hit her head against the wall over and over and over. Sometimes the best help is to walk away from her after a hundred attempts to help her grow and move through her pain.
I think I remember you saying that no doctor would treat you. Have you found one that will? I gave you a listing for a place in your city that could help. Have you contacted them? I know it's hard to motivate when you're depressed, but your friends can't make the depression and despair go away. You have to get help.
On the flip side, I'm a big believer in that things happen in their own time. Maybe you're not ready to get help. That OK, too, you know! Just realize that some friends may not be able to stick around.
I don't know if any of this helps, but these are my thoughts.
Please let me know what's going on. I'll give you my e mail again:
sarahtsaraht @ aol dot com
Take care,
Sarah
Posted by beardedlady on April 18, 2002, at 5:39:20
In reply to Re: But we love you, A.G! » beardedlady, posted by Fi on April 17, 2002, at 8:27:25
Posted by Chris A. on April 20, 2002, at 16:56:29
In reply to Re: Definition of a Friend » Angel Girl, posted by Fi on April 17, 2002, at 8:36:00
> I also wanted to say that it can be useful to have some a good therapist/pdoc or whoever when you are going thru a hard time, like now for you. Gives you somewhere supportive when you can say exactly how terrible you feel etc etc without worrying about whether you are being 'good company'. As well as having friends, of course, not instead.What Fi says has been of benefit to me. When I'm going through a really rough time it's helps to get it all out with my therapist at least once a week. He has to listen to me whether he wants to or not. That way I don't have the compulsion to constantly put wear-and-tear on my few valuable friendships.
Blessings,Chris A. (sometimes were loved even if we don't feel like it)
Posted by Angel Girl on April 22, 2002, at 11:14:11
In reply to Re: Definition of a Friend - Angel Girl, posted by Chris A. on April 20, 2002, at 16:56:29
Hi everybody
I'm sorry I 'disappeared'. That is my MO when I'm down. I'm really working on not doing that anymore as I know people will worry when they don't hear from me.
I want to thank all of you for your very warm, thoughtful, informative and insightful responses.
I don't have any 'real' friends where I live. I've been a loner for years. The friends I have are all on the internet. Some of them I've had for years, some I've met recently. And just to clear something up, I was wrong when I said I only had 2 friends left. I have recently made some new friends that I have met through this msg board that I cherish deeply.
I totally agree with all your definitions of a friend. I think you're right, my friends have left me because they feel they were doing me more harm than good by staying with me. They felt that they were enabling my depression. My last suicide attempt was proof to them that I wasn't serious about getting better. They also consider my suicide attempt as being me being manipulative and playing mind games with them since I didn't follow through with it. They have much anger and have said extremely harsh words to me. They choose to walk away from me until they can see I am getting better. I'm confused on when they think that'll be if they don't talk with me. These are friends that I met on another message board.
They have misinterpretted things I've said and the suicide attempt. It was never about them, it was about me. I wan't to end the pain. That's it. In my state of mind at the time, I never even thought about them, I couldn't get beyond my own pain.
I had the opportunity to talk with my 'best friend' a couple of nights ago on AOL instant messenger. We each, without anger, told the other how we saw things from our own perspectives. This is the first opportunity any of them have given me to even speak about my actions or words. But the conversation was pointless. She went into it with a closed mind and tunnel vision with her mind already made up and there was nothing that I could say that would help her to think otherwise. She chooses to 'judge' me on where I was months ago and not where I am today. In the last 3 weeks I have grown and I'm not the same person anymore. I have not contemplated suicide since then. I don't think I ever will again. But she can't get past where I was before to see where I am now. I don't want to be judged on my past. That's gone, I'm not that same person anymore. Yes, I'm still depressed but I'm not down every day. In fact, now I have more good days than bad. I actually had more than 2 weeks solid of very good days. But they didn't see that because they weren't talking with me and still don't. Those friendships will never be the same if they ever decide they want to pick up with me again. And that's what saddens me. Before my depression, we were EXTREMELY close. I want that back and it's never going to happen. Too much has transpired. I have to find a way to accept that.
But I've also discovered that I have other friendships on that message board that I didn't realize I had. And I've made new friendship through this message board. I treasure all these friendships and hold them dear.
Also, I would like to talk about sar. I never knew her but I can see she is very fondly loved here and missed terribly. I read all the posts regarding her untimely death. It really had an effect on me even though I never talked to her even once or was even familiar with who she was. I was suicidal at the time. I was sad. Sad for her death, for the loss that you all are suffering, for the outpouring of tears and sorrow you all share. I was also feeling worried, worried that maybe the fact that somebody here could commit suicide that maybe it would give somebody else here the courage to follow through on their own suicidal thoughts. And then there was my feelings of guilt because I too was feeling suicidal. I thought how could I do it, look how many people on this message board alone were affected by the loss of sar. It made me stop and think about my own suicidal thoughts and what effect it would have. I don't feel suicidal anymore, I do still think of my own death, but not in the way that I would act on it. So, as much as you all are grieving the loss of your friend sar, my life has been saved partially because her's was not. I sincerely hope that my words do not bring any disrespect to sar or her memory and that nobody is offended. It's certainly not my intention at all.
For all those that have lost friends due to your depression, my heart and prayers are with you. I know your pain. It hurts, it hurts like hell.
Sarah ~ Yes, I have contacted that place that you gave me and I was there on Friday for my orientation. Now, my pdoc, GP and therapist have to forward their records on me and then I will be called back for an assessment to find out if I will be accepted. I'm very optimistic of getting in there and am looking forward to it. However, there is a 2 to 3 month waiting list. I will see if my doctors and therapist can express some urgency for treatment that will hopefully bump me up the list somewhat and get me in sooner. I live in Canada, and the mental health field here is extremely lacking in sufficient resources and waiting times are significant. I thank you for doing that research and finding them for me. This is the place where I feel will be able to give me the treatment I so desperately need.
Again, I thank you all for your words of wisdom, your love and your support. I'm sorry that I worried you when I 'disappeared'.
With love,
Angel Girl
Posted by fi on April 23, 2002, at 17:23:45
In reply to Re: Definition of a Friend - Angel Girl, posted by Angel Girl on April 22, 2002, at 11:14:11
I'm glad to hear you are starting to feel a bit better. And I wish your previous friend(s) werent such a pain, and could be pleased for you and interested in your new way of being!
That's a moving thing to say about sar- not at all disrespectful. Good to hear that something positive resulted from that experience, as well as all the hurt. Thank you.
Take care.
Fi
Posted by Angel Girl on April 23, 2002, at 20:07:17
In reply to Re: Definition of a Friend - Angel Girl » Angel Girl, posted by fi on April 23, 2002, at 17:23:45
fi
Thanks for your kind words. I was REALLY nervous about saying anything abour sar since I never knew her. I'm glad my words were received well. :)
Angel Girl
> I'm glad to hear you are starting to feel a bit better. And I wish your previous friend(s) werent such a pain, and could be pleased for you and interested in your new way of being!
>
> That's a moving thing to say about sar- not at all disrespectful. Good to hear that something positive resulted from that experience, as well as all the hurt. Thank you.
>
> Take care.
>
> Fi
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