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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by sar on October 14, 2001, at 23:57:29
In reply to Re: Dependence on therapists Dinah Cass, posted by galtin on October 13, 2001, at 22:18:16
> >
> > >And since I no longer loath myself, I can >learn, if I so choose, from my mistakes.
> >
> > Hi Galtin,
> > May I ask what the source of your self-loathing was? Was it depression alone, or were you a child abuse victim or was there some other source? If you are uncomfortable with the question, there's no pressure to answer. I'm interested, that's all.
> > Cass
>
>
> Cass,
>
> Take one father whose expectations of me I could not fulfill, a mother who was an emotional cipher, and my naturally defiant temperament. Add a 13 year career in the ordained ministry marked by steadily progressive alcoholism. Add a liberal dose of personal hypocrisy. The public persona of a respectable and successful minister colliding with a private life morally and logistically out of control. Finally, subtract the quart of vodka a day, add a public booting from the ministry, shake in a sudden, searing shame, and there it was- rabid self hate.
>
> This is the short answer to your question, near as I can figure it looking back eleven years. Alcohol triggered my first depressive episode. Everything else described above led to a pattern of chronically relapsing depression.
>
> Above all, I generated my self-hate by my continually self-destructive behavior. I didn't reckon this until I stopped drinking, and then it was too late to prevent the self-hatred from bulldozing its way over my weakened defenses. I tried, by force of will, to drive the hatred right back out of my life. But, eventually I realized that it had been burrowed into my personality as far back into my childhood as I could remember. After trying everything I could come up with, and bereft of other options, I had to surrender before I got anywhere. After surrendering, I needed to change how I acted and thought, one little bit at a time. Ah, what a wonder it is to finally grow up. And I am still at it.
>
> I hope this makes some sort of sense to you.
>
>
> galtinthank you for this post.
i can't put it into words at this moment, but it touched me alot.
best,
sar
Posted by gdog on October 15, 2001, at 17:19:39
In reply to Dependence on therapists, posted by Dinah on October 12, 2001, at 20:50:33
sorry for butting in, but i couldn't help it. i've been seeing a therapist for depression and eating disorders for almost a year, first time i ever trusted a therapist to get to the point of talking about anything of substance. three hours ago, she told me she is closing her practice (family emergency) and moving. she can see me once more for closure. i feel devestated, like an essential portion of my recovery has fallen through. she made me tell her i would call some of the other therapists she recommended, but at this point i just dont feel like i can do that. so i just feel like giving up on it all. my pdoc is totally unaccessible for anything other than refilling prescriptions, my gp who told me she would manage my meds changed her mind when she found out the extent of my. . .uhm. . .problems. so. i know i'm feelin a fair amount of self pity over this, but i'm really frightened that this is the straw that will make me totally give up. its just been so hard to continue on, trying to get better and live a livable life. and so hard to go to therapy and shrinks to begin with. i don't know what's wrong with me, but this has been makin me cry for the last 3 hours.
soooo. anybody have any good advice/experiences/etc. to share?
gdog.
Posted by Dinah on October 15, 2001, at 22:43:36
In reply to Re: Dependence on therapists, posted by gdog on October 15, 2001, at 17:19:39
gdog,
I am so sorry to hear of your loss. I wish I did have some advice for you, or at least something useful to say. It's quite reasonable to cry over this. I cried for a day over losing a psychiatrist I couldn't stand. I guess the irony is that a time like this, when the idea of trusting another therapist seems unthinkable, is when you most need someone to talk to. So, I guess probably the best thing to do would be to call one of the therapists she recommended. Of course, if it had been my therapist that closed his practice, I would feel just the same way you do. I wish there was something more I could say.
Lots of heartfelt hugs,
Dinah
Posted by Dinah on October 15, 2001, at 23:24:21
In reply to Re: Dependence on therapists, posted by gdog on October 15, 2001, at 17:19:39
gdog,
I am so sorry to hear of your loss. I wish I did have advice for you, or at least something useful to say. It's quite reasonable to cry over this. I cried for a day over losing a psychiatrist I didn't even like. I guess the irony is that a time like this, when the idea of trusting another therapist seems unthinkable, is when you most need someone to talk to. So, I guess probably the best thing to do would be to call one of the therapists she recommended. Of course, if it had been my therapist that had closed his practice, I would feel just the way you do. I wish there was something more I could say.
Lots of heartfelt hugs,
Dinah
Posted by madeleine on October 16, 2001, at 0:53:13
In reply to Re: Dependence on therapists, posted by gdog on October 15, 2001, at 17:19:39
gdog,
I am so sorry to hear that you are losing your therapist, and so suddenly, too. My heart goes out to you.
I have some personal experience with both depression and eating disorders, so I understand how hard it is to find someone to confide in. Not to mention how difficult it is to live from day to day with these conditions. I remember days when I could barely scrape up enough energy to get out of bed to go to therapy. I can tell that you have been putting your heart and soul into your recovery. Please don't give up, you will be able to find another therapist and things will get better. Remember how hard you have worked in the past and try to reconnect with your inner strength.
I'm encouraged by the fact that your therapist gave you several other therapists to call. This means you have options, which is a good thing. If you don't feel up to talking to them right away, perhaps just call and listen to their answering machine messages, just to dip your toe in the water.
As hard as it may seem at this point, the sooner you can make an appointment with someone the better--you are going through a very difficult time and you need someone to talk to and a place to go and cry for awhile, someplace where you are not alone.
Be kind to yourself, and please write and let us know how you are doing.
madeleine
Posted by galtin on October 16, 2001, at 5:19:31
In reply to Re: Dependence on therapists, posted by gdog on October 15, 2001, at 17:19:39
> sorry for butting in, but i couldn't help it. i've been seeing a therapist for depression and eating disorders for almost a year, first time i ever trusted a therapist to get to the point of talking about anything of substance. three hours ago, she told me she is closing her practice (family emergency) and moving. she can see me once more for closure. i feel devestated, like an essential portion of my recovery has fallen through. she made me tell her i would call some of the other therapists she recommended, but at this point i just dont feel like i can do that. so i just feel like giving up on it all. my pdoc is totally unaccessible for anything other than refilling prescriptions, my gp who told me she would manage my meds changed her mind when she found out the extent of my. . .uhm. . .problems. so. i know i'm feelin a fair amount of self pity over this, but i'm really frightened that this is the straw that will make me totally give up. its just been so hard to continue on, trying to get better and live a livable life. and so hard to go to therapy and shrinks to begin with. i don't know what's wrong with me, but this has been makin me cry for the last 3 hours.
>
>
> soooo. anybody have any good advice/experiences/etc. to share?
> gdog.
gdog,
Yikes! I would be beside myself. But you can't give up. You have worked too hard. If you have trusted one therapist, you can eventually trust another.Instead of getting a list of potentials from your departing therapist, you could ask her to recommend the person she thinks is best trained and temperamentally suited to help you. And since she is leaving you in the lurch, she should be willing to call the therapist to give her some background on the work the two of you have done together (and thereby confirm that this therapist is a good match for you).
If that is not possible, then go therapist shopping. Meet with and interview each person on the list. Most therapists will do this first "let's see if we can work together" session with no charge. That way you won't feel like you are just rolling the dice.Good luck,
galtin
Posted by galtin on October 16, 2001, at 5:20:23
In reply to Re: Dependence on therapists, posted by gdog on October 15, 2001, at 17:19:39
> sorry for butting in, but i couldn't help it. i've been seeing a therapist for depression and eating disorders for almost a year, first time i ever trusted a therapist to get to the point of talking about anything of substance. three hours ago, she told me she is closing her practice (family emergency) and moving. she can see me once more for closure. i feel devestated, like an essential portion of my recovery has fallen through. she made me tell her i would call some of the other therapists she recommended, but at this point i just dont feel like i can do that. so i just feel like giving up on it all. my pdoc is totally unaccessible for anything other than refilling prescriptions, my gp who told me she would manage my meds changed her mind when she found out the extent of my. . .uhm. . .problems. so. i know i'm feelin a fair amount of self pity over this, but i'm really frightened that this is the straw that will make me totally give up. its just been so hard to continue on, trying to get better and live a livable life. and so hard to go to therapy and shrinks to begin with. i don't know what's wrong with me, but this has been makin me cry for the last 3 hours.
>
>
> soooo. anybody have any good advice/experiences/etc. to share?
> gdog.
gdog,
Yikes! I would be beside myself. But you can't give up. You have worked too hard. If you have trusted one therapist, you can eventually trust another.Instead of getting a list of potentials from your departing therapist, you could ask her to recommend the person she thinks is best trained and temperamentally suited to help you. And since she is leaving you in the lurch, she should be willing to call the therapist to give her some background on the work the two of you have done together (and thereby confirm that this therapist is a good match for you).
If that is not possible, then go therapist shopping. Meet with and interview each person on the list. Most therapists will do this first "let's see if we can work together" session with no charge. That way you won't feel like you are just rolling the dice.Good luck,
galtin
Posted by gdog on October 19, 2001, at 12:02:12
In reply to Re: Dependence on therapists, posted by galtin on October 16, 2001, at 5:20:23
thanks, everyone, for your support and suggestions. i'm feeling better now, and its great to know that its not TOO weird to have this be such a big deal. i have called a couple of the therapists, and will get in to see someone asap. you guys are great!
gdog
Posted by Dinah on October 19, 2001, at 15:37:53
In reply to Re: Dependence on therapists, posted by gdog on October 19, 2001, at 12:02:12
gdog,
I'm glad you are feeling better. I admire you for following through on contacting the other therapists. In spite of my reasoned advice to you, I'm not at all sure I would have been brave enough to follow through.
Did you take advantage of the last session with your previous therapist, or did I misunderstand? Perhaps the session where she informed you of the news was the last session.
Posted by Dinah on October 21, 2001, at 9:21:19
In reply to Re: Dependence on therapists » gdog, posted by Dinah on October 19, 2001, at 15:37:53
I have been attempting to deal with my dependence myself and, while my intentions were good, I'm not at all sure I have been going about it the right way. I have been searching the archives here and also the internet for stories of bad therapists or therapists who terminated their clients abruptly.
I really do think it's unwise to be too dependent on a paid professional, and that it is a good idea to root out that dependence and dispose of it at once. On the other hand, my efforts are working to some extent - I do feel less safe with him, yet I am feeling pretty rotten in general. The depression is definitely getting worse. I think I have a nasty habit of trying to deal with emotional issues in a too pragmatic way.
Just venting.
Posted by Mair on October 21, 2001, at 16:42:11
In reply to Re: Dependence on therapists, posted by Dinah on October 21, 2001, at 9:21:19
Dinah - I'm picking up here a little late. Why do you feel less safe with him? Is it something he did, or is it that you're more guarded because you're concerned about your dependency?
Mair
Posted by Dinah on October 21, 2001, at 18:05:46
In reply to Re: Dependence on therapists » Dinah, posted by Mair on October 21, 2001, at 16:42:11
> Dinah - I'm picking up here a little late. Why do you feel less safe with him? Is it something he did, or is it that you're more guarded because you're concerned about your dependency?
>
> MairI guess I was a bit unclear. He hasn't done anything wrong. I just recently realized the extent of my dependence on him and it scared me. I've talked to him about it and he thinks I will outgrow it as I get stronger and it was a common thing in therapy and not to worry about it.
This may not make any sense, but it seems as if my emotional self and my rational self are not very well connected. My rational self is attempting to undermine my dependence on my therapist by undermining the sense of safety it is based on. My emotional self seems to need the sense of safety and undermining it is making me more depressed. So I am second-guessing the wisdom of trying to prematurely end the dependence. How rational is my rational self being? Now I know I'm not making any sense.
Sigh.
Posted by Cecilia on October 22, 2001, at 4:05:43
In reply to Re: Dependence on therapists » Mair, posted by Dinah on October 21, 2001, at 18:05:46
> > Dinah - I'm picking up here a little late. Why do you feel less safe with him? Is it something he did, or is it that you're more guarded because you're concerned about your dependency?
> >
> > Mair
>
> I guess I was a bit unclear. He hasn't done anything wrong. I just recently realized the extent of my dependence on him and it scared me. I've talked to him about it and he thinks I will outgrow it as I get stronger and it was a common thing in therapy and not to worry about it.
> This may not make any sense, but it seems as if my emotional self and my rational self are not very well connected. My rational self is attempting to undermine my dependence on my therapist by undermining the sense of safety it is based on. My emotional self seems to need the sense of safety and undermining it is making me more depressed. So I am second-guessing the wisdom of trying to prematurely end the dependence. How rational is my rational self being? Now I know I'm not making any sense.
> Sigh.It`s a no-win situation. I tried to avoid getting too dependent on my therapist out of fear of being abandoned. Eventually, she abandoned me because of my inability to become dependent.
Posted by Dinah on October 22, 2001, at 5:23:27
In reply to Re: Dependence on therapists, posted by Cecilia on October 22, 2001, at 4:05:43
> It`s a no-win situation. I tried to avoid getting too dependent on my therapist out of fear of being abandoned. Eventually, she abandoned me because of my inability to become dependent.
Cecilia,
You are right. I have a tendency to try to face the lesser pain now to avoid the feared catastrophic pain later. Unfortunately, I also have the tendency to decide the pain now is too much and that I'll just hope the feared pain never happens. And in true obsessive fashion, I can't decide between the two ideas, so I go back and forth causing maximum fear and pain from both sides. I think too much, and not well enough.
Dinah
Posted by Dinah on October 22, 2001, at 5:57:54
In reply to Re: Dependence on therapists » Cecilia, posted by Dinah on October 22, 2001, at 5:23:27
I just realized that as I get trapped deeper into myself in my obsessive loop, my actual therapist has become irrelevant.
I guess my mind is more goal oriented than I think since the obsessions serve to further distance me from my therapist.
And I guess therapy must be working at least somewhat if I can recognize this.Dinah
Posted by mair on October 22, 2001, at 7:20:27
In reply to **chuckle**..., posted by Dinah on October 22, 2001, at 5:57:54
> Dinah - I think your mind operates a bit like mine. Sometimes I'll start thinking about something that will make me think about something else and so on. Eventually I get back to where I started only worse because by then I can't remember how I got there and the landscape looks just different enough to confuse me. I don't acknowledge my dependency on my therapist although it may well be there. What does happen is that I seem to do a nose dive whenever I think about terminating. Sometimes I think about terminating because I just can't see how I can explain to her what's going on in my head or I don't want to explain it to her. Other times I think about terminating because I feel a little better and seem to lose my therapeutic focus and it just doesn't seem as necessary or worthwhile. Of course after I start getting depressed again I attribute it to a fear of being without that anchor and it seems very much like something I "precipitated" which reinforces for me an idea that depression is something I can control but choose to bring on myself and to perpetuate. Sometimes I go from there to being very self-critical that I'm even thinking about this crap - that I'm more concerned with the process of therapy than the substance of what can actually be learned. Regardless of where I started, in no time I'm in this cycle where in my mind there's no place to get off where I look anything other than pretty much a mess. If I was thinking about terminating therapy in the beginning of the cycle, I've certainly given that up by the time my next appointment rolls around.
Mair
Posted by gdog on October 22, 2001, at 15:32:18
In reply to Re: Dependence on therapists » gdog, posted by Dinah on October 19, 2001, at 15:37:53
dinah,
thanks for the words of encouragement. when i got into this therapy stuff i never imagined it would be this complex! i do have one more appointment with my old therapist next week (for "closure") as well as an appt. with one of the folks my therapist referenced. i go through a lot of anguish around therapy too. the first time i did it, i spent the whole 3 months trying to convince both my therapist and i that i didn't need therapy! needless to say, we never got very far.anyway, i do know some people who are completely clear when they are "done" with therapy. maybe some of us never reach that level of clarity - but it sounds like you have a lot of clarity on the process. and sometimes i think for me the process is what its really about.
gdog.> gdog,
> I'm glad you are feeling better. I admire you for following through on contacting the other therapists. In spite of my reasoned advice to you, I'm not at all sure I would have been brave enough to follow through.
> Did you take advantage of the last session with your previous therapist, or did I misunderstand? Perhaps the session where she informed you of the news was the last session.
Posted by Dinah on October 22, 2001, at 17:58:14
In reply to Re: Dependence on therapists, posted by gdog on October 22, 2001, at 15:32:18
You are welcome gdog. I wish I did have some clarity on the process. I find it all terribly confusing. It's good to know I'm not the only one who feels that way.
Best wishes with the new therapist.
Dinah
Posted by Dinah on October 22, 2001, at 18:10:31
In reply to Re: **chuckle**... » Dinah, posted by mair on October 22, 2001, at 7:20:27
Thanks Mair,
As I was struggling to post what I was thinking, I realized that I was in an obsessive loop. It's always so difficult to realize that when I am ruminating. Now that I do realize it, I can work on untangling the threads of my thoughts.
Dinah
Posted by Waterlily on October 22, 2001, at 19:21:47
In reply to Re: Dependence on therapists, posted by gdog on October 15, 2001, at 17:19:39
I'm sure glad you brought this up because it has been a fear of mine. I didn't have much of a problem until recently because I always dreaded going to therapy. I finally got to the point where I actually look forward to it, but my therapist had to cancel my appointment last week. I was bothered by that and now I'm concerned that I'm becoming dependant on therapy. At least now I'm not the only one that worries about it (not that I want anyone else to worry, mind you...).
Posted by Dinah on October 22, 2001, at 21:04:06
In reply to Re: Dependence on therapists, posted by Waterlily on October 22, 2001, at 19:21:47
Hi Waterlily,
As you can see, I too have a fear of dependence. Being bothered that your therapist had to cancel doesn't necessarily mean you are dependent, but surely it means that you are feeling more connected to your therapist and are forming a relationship with him/her. That has to be a good thing. From what I've read, there has to be some degree of connection in order for therapy to work. In any case, it can be something to talk about with your therapist.
They say you play out your other relationships with your therapist. I've always had trouble trusting and connecting with others. I've decided to see this as a learning experience. Of course, if it doesn't work out, I will learn some really bad things from it. I really have to work on that trust issue. :-)
Posted by Waterlily on October 23, 2001, at 15:25:35
In reply to Re: Dependence on therapists » Waterlily, posted by Dinah on October 22, 2001, at 21:04:06
Thanks, Dinah. I do think I'm finally getting to the point of actually liking my sessions rather than being scared of her. Hope everything works out well with your therapy:-)
Posted by Dinah on November 15, 2001, at 19:58:44
In reply to Re: Dependence on therapists, posted by gdog on October 22, 2001, at 15:32:18
Gdog,
I've been thinking about you. How are you doing? I hope that you found one of the recommended therapists to your liking.
Dinah
Posted by gdog on November 21, 2001, at 14:29:02
In reply to Re: Dependence on therapists » gdog, posted by Dinah on November 15, 2001, at 19:58:44
dinah,
thanks so much for your thoughts! i am doing alright. . . better now that i decided that my great plan to take time off from therapy of any kind is not very smart. i didn't make an appointment with a therapist until monday (i've been off line for a while. . .) i guess it just reached a point for me where i realized i was headed down the river without a paddle (as they say, or something like that). started feeling totally isolated and ungrounded and myopic. i guess that should scare me into thinking i'm being dependant on therapists, but, really, i have behaviors that have to be addressed by a professional, else i'm screwed. so. monday morn. off to the new therapist!
gdog.> Gdog,
> I've been thinking about you. How are you doing? I hope that you found one of the recommended therapists to your liking.
> Dinah
Posted by Dinah on November 21, 2001, at 19:47:40
In reply to Re: Dependence on therapists » Dinah, posted by gdog on November 21, 2001, at 14:29:02
gdog,
Let us know how it goes with the new therapist. Sometimes the hardest part is making the decision to go. I've pretty much decided to quit worrying about the dependence, too (at least for now).
I'm glad you're feeling better.
Dinah
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