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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 6 of 6. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 15, 2001, at 19:50:43
[Posted by Zo on September 15, 2001, at 18:15:37]
> I couldn't study for beans in school. . .never mind undergoing intensive learning (how to fly a jumbo jet) WHILE knowing you're going to die.
>
> We're talking about a mindset that is SO foreign to us (no pun intended) I think that may be the scariest part. Who ARE these people. (This is not an actual question.)
>
> Zo
Posted by Cass on October 13, 2001, at 23:49:41
In reply to Redirected: Beyond Fanatacism, posted by Dr. Bob on September 15, 2001, at 19:50:43
Speaking of the tragedies and mental health, a friend of mine said that she heard a psychiatrist on TV say that the terrorist attacks had improved mental health because people saw clear lines between themselves and the enemy, and for this reason, mental health always improved in times of war. I was repulsed by that idea. Does complexity really make for poor mental health? Does seeing things in black and white terms make us healthier? I guess if this doctor is right, open-mindedness and education should be made illegal. I think his idea would lead to scapegoating with people making themselves feel better by labeling someone else "the enemy." I think the goal is a world community. Life is not a football game.
Posted by Mitchell on October 14, 2001, at 2:21:07
In reply to Re: Redirected: Beyond Fanatacism, posted by Cass on October 13, 2001, at 23:49:41
> Speaking of the tragedies and mental health, a friend of mine said that she heard a psychiatrist on TV say that the terrorist attacks had improved mental health because people saw clear lines between themselves and the enemy,
Well, then. I guess that means I am not a person.
If the title of this post is confusing, go to http://www.google.com and enter the terms Operation Northwoods or OPLAN 34A in the search box
Indeed, repulsive.
Posted by Gracie2 on October 18, 2001, at 18:55:14
In reply to Operation Northwoods, OPLAN 34A, posted by Mitchell on October 14, 2001, at 2:21:07
Actually, the suicide rates of a nation at war always go way down...whether this is because it gives one's life purpose and a sense of comraderie
is probably the answer...if it is not simply a renewed interest in saving's one hide. True fact.
-Gracie
Posted by Mitchell on October 18, 2001, at 21:17:34
In reply to Re: Operation Northwoods, OPLAN 34A, posted by Gracie2 on October 18, 2001, at 18:55:14
> Actually, the suicide rates of a nation at war always go way down...whether this is because it gives one's life purpose and a sense of comraderie
> is probably the answer...if it is not simply a renewed interest in saving's one hide. True fact.
> -GracieGracie,
I trust that generally, during times of war, reported suicide rates have declined. The reason, as you suggest, might simply be a unique, situational sense of purpose, or might be a byproduct of a survival instinct excited by an immediate threat.
"Always" might not be the most accurate measure, though, especially in the present war, where some portion of a population is willing to use suicide as a military tactic. I'm thinking of a quote by a Taliban leader in which he said the nation, at least the population that is affiliated with the religious students' government, is willing to commit suicide to achieve its goal. During the Vietnam War, we saw an increase in particular types of suicides - such as the monks who self-immolated as a protest against the war. Suicide bombers operated to some extent in Vietnam in the 1960s and '70s, and have been active in parts of the Middle East for several years. They are celebrated in street-side posters and their families are supported by well-organized martyrs' organizations. This unique form of suicide, now more than ever, suggests a need for objective and urgent study.
Though they are somewhat different in form, militant suicide is in other ways similar to suicides accompanied by mass murder we have witnessed in the U.S., such as at Columbine High School. While surviving individuals might feel it necessary to deny any message, meaning or purpose in these kinds of suicides, the cost of ignoring this deadly form of communication could be catastrophic for society as a whole.
The Cold War presented another unique suicidal tendency sometimes described as a Solomon syndrome, which unfortunately could erupt in the present conflict in the matter of a few hours or days, if it is not already afoot. A Solomon strategy is when a nation threatened with destruction or defeat will initiate a destructive process that will bring the house down upon itself in order to also bring about the demise of an enemy. Some say Israel's military doctrine includes a nuclear Solomon plan. The Cold War doctrines of the U.S. and the former USSR have been well documented as being policies of mutually assured destruction.
Another flaw in the measure of suicide during war is that combat deaths are not usually considered suicide, though most combat veterans will attest that some missions or combat tactics are suicidal. In WWI, when hundreds of thousands of young men were ordered to advance into certain death by machine gun fire, their deaths were not considered suicide, though a reasonable analysis would conclude that they more or less willingly committed an act that caused their own death. The death rates of U.S. pilots flying missions against anti-aircraft missile sites in Vietnam were about equivalent to, or worse than, the chances against survival in a game of Russian Roulette. Current U.S. military tactics include a high degree of force protection measures, and suicidal missions are now seldom required of U.S. soldiers, but other nations do not afford the same protection against compulsory suicide. Even among U.S. soldiers, there lingers a lore of soldiers becoming "crazy brave," in which fatigue can lead soldiers to take risks that are almost certainly suicidal.
Yet another flaw of measures that suggest a drop in suicide during war is the failure to assess post-war psychological casualties, which often result in post-traumatic syndromes, including increased suicidal tendencies. Studies show populations exposed to warfare exhibit trauma-related behaviors that sometimes persist for generations after a war. If suicide rates drop during the term of a war, but double after the war, the gross effect of war would be an increase in suicides.
Posted by Gracie2 on October 20, 2001, at 2:01:35
In reply to Warfare and self-destructive tendencies » Gracie2, posted by Mitchell on October 18, 2001, at 21:17:34
Mitchell-
I should have qualified. The suicide rate of average American civilians, during a major war that involves America, drops significantly. Many people are desperately in need of a purpose in life and may latch onto anything from Jim Jones or Charles Manson to Heaven's Gate, which I believe is the name of the cult who submitted to castration and committed suicide because their
spaceship, traveling behind a comet, had arrived to transport them to paradise.This is probably close to the mindset of a terrorist. I remember reading a story about the SLA (the kidnappers of Patty Hearst), holed up in
a house surrounded by police and SWAT teams. There was no way they could escape except for surrendering, but they were determined to fight to the death. Once the house caught on fire, they chopped a hole into the basement through the bathroom and turned on all the faucets so that the water would pour into the basement through the hole, just to give themselves a few extra minutes to continue shooting before they burned to death.
Unbelievable. They didn't even have the ceremony
and honors that were bestowed to WWII kamikaze pilots before leaving on their suicidal missions.I don't pretend to understand this kind of fanaticism. I think the Columbine High School shooters were losers with a capital "L" and, having a teenager myself, I hope they're rotting in Hell.
Uncharitable as that is, I think the nearest that an average American may become to a terrorist is when someone hurts their children. F*** with me, but not my kids.Anyway. (I could probably be a good writer if I learned to focus.) During wartime, suicide rates
among American civilians drop because they suddenly have a purpose in life and suitable actions they can take to support that purpose; they also have a person or country or figurehead on which to focus their hatred. During WWII, it was the Germans and the Japanese, and we responded with war bonds, victory gardens, women manufacturing ammunition and putting together "care packages" for the men overseas, working for the USO or even joining the WAC.It may also interest you to know that I was active duty Army for 7 years although I was not, thank God, in service during any major conflict.
My basic training was co-ed; there was no such thing as a "female push-up" at Fort Jackson and there was no excuse or concession for being a female; in fact, crying or complaining about "our monthlies" - as the drill sergeants referred to menustration - made them furious, and we were punished with push-ups or whistle drills in the sandpit. We did everything the men did, everything. We ran until we puked, and then we ran an extra mile as punishment for getting sick.I bring this up only to point out that basic training is brain-washing. You're not a male or a female; you're not an individual at all. Your survival, as a person, is unimportant compared to a successful mission. You're taught to obey orders from a superior without question. To turn and run from a dangerous situation, once you've been ordered to do so, is the worst kind of treason. You're betraying your country and your fellow soldiers who are also, often, your best friends. In short, you're a coward and you are scum. That's what the Army teaches you.
I am as patriotic as the next person, but I have no love for the Army. I think that we've made world peace our business when it is not our place to do so; we send troops where they do not belong.
My brother was killed in an airplane crash on his way home for Christmas, along with 250 other soldiers, after a 6-month "peace-keeping" mission in the Sinai, where we had no business to be in the first place. Somehow, a folded flag and an urn of cremated ashes does not take his place.
Airborne-
Gracie
This is the end of the thread.
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