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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 13 to 37 of 72. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 8, 2001, at 17:28:39
In reply to Re: Abandonment and Rejection » Rosa, posted by kazoo on October 7, 2001, at 11:03:39
> Alcoholics are nasty creatures and they know it, too. I find them debasing, disgusting and degrading. Alcoholics have this rotten habit of directing their delirium toward those don't deserve it, and for that reason alone they're not worth any kind of affection, sympathy or compassion.
Sorry, I missed this before. Please don't post anything that others could take as accusatory or put them down, and please be careful not to overgeneralize. Thanks,
Bob
PS: Follow-ups regarding civility should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Posted by Cass on October 8, 2001, at 21:57:33
In reply to Abandonment and Rejection, posted by Rosa on October 6, 2001, at 7:56:13
This might be a long road. He may finally realize that it is sometimes a blessing to be separated from family members who are abusive and disrespectful. I suggest he find some type of support group in which he finds kindred spirits. They may be his real family.
Posted by Rosa on October 9, 2001, at 7:15:13
In reply to Re: Abandonment and Rejection, posted by Cass on October 8, 2001, at 21:57:33
Whether it's Al-Anon < www.al-anon.alateen.org >, Adult Children of Alcoholics (and dysfunctional families) < www.adultchildren.org >, or a group like this, I believe this is where we will find others who care. Thanks for your interest and support.
^^^^^^
> This might be a long road. He may finally realize that it is sometimes a blessing to be separated from family members who are abusive and disrespectful. I suggest he find some type of support group in which he finds kindred spirits. They may be his real family.
Posted by Kristi on October 9, 2001, at 10:07:23
In reply to Re: Abandonment and Rejection, posted by Cass on October 8, 2001, at 21:57:33
I have to agree with Cass on this one.... it all depends what your friend is willing to have, give up, etc. I love my father to death.... now... that I have distanced myself from him... me and him and me and my sister(also an alcoholic) have a really close relationship. I've learned the harder you push... the more you get rejected. Just some thoughts. Good luck,
Kristi
> This might be a long road. He may finally realize that it is sometimes a blessing to be separated from family members who are abusive and disrespectful. I suggest he find some type of support group in which he finds kindred spirits. They may be his real family.
Posted by Elizabeth on October 9, 2001, at 13:56:37
In reply to Re: please be civil » kazoo, posted by Dr. Bob on October 8, 2001, at 17:28:39
> > Alcoholics are nasty creatures and they know it, too. I find them debasing, disgusting and degrading. Alcoholics have this rotten habit of directing their delirium toward those don't deserve it, and for that reason alone they're not worth any kind of affection, sympathy or compassion.
>
> Sorry, I missed this before. Please don't post anything that others could take as accusatory or put them down, and please be careful not to overgeneralize.I was pretty upset to read this too. Drug addicts are demonized by society every day -- can't we rise above that here? Especially (but not exclusively) since there are alcoholics and other addicts reading and posting to these boards.
-elizabeth
Posted by galtin on October 9, 2001, at 23:10:46
In reply to Re: Abandonment and Rejection: CORRECTION! » galtin, posted by Wendy B. on October 7, 2001, at 22:03:44
>
> > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > > Unless your friend is willing to accept his stepfather's alcoholism, and all the nasty abuse that goes with it, then the only way he can possibly achieve any sort of bonding is by becoming like his stepfather, and even that has no guarantee of working. Alcoholics are nasty creatures and they know it, too. I find them debasing, disgusting and degrading. Alcoholics have this rotten habit of directing their delirium toward those don't deserve it, and for that reason alone they're not worth any kind of affection, sympathy or compassion.
> >
> > Rosa,
> >
> > Since we were not asked for our views of alchoholics, I am thinking that your categorical condemnation of them comes from painful personal experience. I can't think why else a person would make such harsh, judgmental statements. Not to mention, inaccurate.
> >
> >
> >
> > galtin
>
>
> Galtin!
>
> Rosa did NOT say that, Kazoo did!
>
> Rosa is the one concerned enough to be asking this question for a friend, and Kazoo answered her back, saying this questionable thing about alcoholics beeing unredeemable! Re-read the posts!!
>
> yikes! don't blame Rosa...
>
> wendyWendy and Rosa,
Wendy, thanks for straightening me out. I am new to the site and don't yet associate names with personalities. No excuse, though.
Rosa, please accept my apologies
galtin
Posted by galtin on October 9, 2001, at 23:15:40
In reply to Re: Seduced and Abandoned soon to be a major motion » kazoo, posted by Wendy B. on October 8, 2001, at 10:20:01
> > > yikes! don't blame Rosa...
> >
> > Yikes, Wendy dearest, let's blame Osama and be done with it.
>
>
> totally fine, in my book anyway... (grumble, grumble, 'sick of them peace-niks')
>
>
> > Besides, the concept of "blame" has been deemed socially unacceptable when insurance companies made this a no-fault world back in the last millennium.
>
>
> hell, mon! i got lots 'o blame to hand out, to lots 'o folk... line up, guys and gals!
>
>
> > In the manner of Jerzy Kosinski, "I like to pinch.", so can I pinch you?
>
>
> #1: we know he kinds of trash ol' Jerzy wrote!
> #2: save the pinches for Willow, she needs 'em more than i do...
>
>
> > kazoo
>
>
> lots of love,
> and a pinch back,
> just for good measure,
>
> W.Wendy and Kazoo,
A number of years ago, before he killed himself, obviously, I had dinner with Kosinski and his girlfriend. He didn't pinch me, but it was still quite an evening.
galtin
Posted by galtin on October 9, 2001, at 23:19:16
In reply to Re: Abandonment and Rejection » galtin, posted by Rosa on October 8, 2001, at 11:15:18
> I did not make the statement you are referring to.
>
> I know several "recovering" alcoholics and they are very nice people. Until his stepfather becomes willing to accept his alcoholism, I do not see very much chance of his having a relationship with him.
>Rosa,
I now realize my mistake. Wendy energetically pointed it out to me.
I apologize for my carelessness.
galtin
>
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > > Unless your friend is willing to accept his stepfather's alcoholism, and all the nasty abuse that goes with it, then the only way he can possibly achieve any sort of bonding is by becoming like his stepfather, and even that has no guarantee of working. Alcoholics are nasty creatures and they know it, too. I find them debasing, disgusting and degrading. Alcoholics have this rotten habit of directing their delirium toward those don't deserve it, and for that reason alone they're not worth any kind of affection, sympathy or compassion.
> >
> > Rosa,
> >
> > Since we were not asked for our views of alchoholics, I am thinking that your categorical condemnation of them comes from painful personal experience. I can't think why else a person would make such harsh, judgmental statements. Not to mention, inaccurate.
> >
> >
> >
> > galtin
Posted by sar on October 9, 2001, at 23:33:14
In reply to Re: Seduced and Abandoned soon to be a major motion, posted by galtin on October 9, 2001, at 23:15:40
dear rosa,i feel too inexperienced to comment on the family situation, but i just wanted to add to this thread that not all alcoholics are the monsters kazoo makes them out to be.
alot of monsters are doomed to be alcoholics.
i got real lucky. 90% of the alkies i know are sweethearts. here's a controversial startement: when i was arrested for DWI, the cops reported to my mother that i was the sweetest, most co-operative arrested drunk they'd ever encountered.
i've learned to not push relationships. as kristi mentioned, the harder you push, the more likely they are to fall away. i've found that it's best to be patient and simply ley things BE.
> A number of years ago, before he killed himself, obviously, I had dinner with Kosinski and his girlfriend. He didn't pinch me, but it was still quite an evening.
>
>
> galtinno shit?! well do tell the details! i had no idea he'd killed himself. i read half of *pinball* a couple of years ago and liked his sense of humour...i'll have to research him...how did you happen upon this dinner, and what did he order, and how much did he have to drink :) ?
welcome to psb, galtin...
sar
Posted by kazoo on October 10, 2001, at 2:31:42
In reply to Re: Seduced and Abandoned soon to be a major motion, posted by sar on October 9, 2001, at 23:33:14
> ... when i was arrested for DWI, the cops reported to my mother that i was the sweetest, most co-operative arrested drunk they'd ever encountered.
!
Posted by sar on October 10, 2001, at 10:38:29
In reply to Re: Seduced and Abandoned soon to be a major motion » sar, posted by kazoo on October 10, 2001, at 2:31:42
> > ... when i was arrested for DWI, the cops reported to my mother that i was the sweetest, most co-operative arrested drunk they'd ever encountered.
>
> !laughing...i guess i got myself there, eh?
Posted by Wendy B. on October 10, 2001, at 12:21:14
In reply to Re: Seduced and Abandoned soon to be a major motion, posted by galtin on October 9, 2001, at 23:15:40
>
> Wendy and Kazoo,
>
>
> A number of years ago, before he killed himself, obviously, I had dinner with Kosinski and his girlfriend. He didn't pinch me, but it was still quite an evening.
>
>
> galtin
galtin,the only reason i spoke so 'energetically' was so that rosa wouldn't feel horrible! sorry...
the reference to the 'trash' kosinski wrote was a silly response to kazoo's silliness... i admire Kosinski very much as an author.
like sar, i'd love to hear the dinner-party story, especially the part about what you ate and drank and how much... what was his girlfriend like? how did you know him?
best,
wendy
Posted by Jane D on October 10, 2001, at 13:14:57
In reply to Re: please be civil, posted by Elizabeth on October 9, 2001, at 13:56:37
> > > Alcoholics are nasty creatures and they know it, too. I find them debasing, disgusting and degrading. Alcoholics have this rotten habit of directing their delirium toward those don't deserve it, and for that reason alone they're not worth any kind of affection, sympathy or compassion.
> >
> > Sorry, I missed this before. Please don't post anything that others could take as accusatory or put them down, and please be careful not to overgeneralize.
>
> I was pretty upset to read this too. Drug addicts are demonized by society every day -- can't we rise above that here? Especially (but not exclusively) since there are alcoholics and other addicts reading and posting to these boards.
>
> -elizabethElizabeth - Upset by the words or by the sentiments? Addicts of all kinds do cause serious, destructive, problems for the people around them. I don't see anything wrong with reminding people that if they can't give an addict enough support that the problem is often in the addict and not in them. And I don't see any problem with reminding addicts of this either. - Jane
Posted by Elizabeth on October 10, 2001, at 13:53:43
In reply to Re: please be civil » Elizabeth, posted by Jane D on October 10, 2001, at 13:14:57
> Elizabeth - Upset by the words or by the sentiments?
Both.
> Addicts of all kinds do cause serious, destructive, problems for the people around them.
Yes, although I wonder if that would happen if they had safe, legal substitutes available to them (benzos in the case of alcoholism).
> I don't see anything wrong with reminding people that if they can't give an addict enough support that the problem is often in the addict and not in them.
I don't either, but the post I was referring to went much, much further than that, describing alcoholics as "debasing, disgusting and degrading" and adding that "they're not worth any kind of affection, sympathy or compassion."
-elizabeth
Posted by Rosa on October 10, 2001, at 15:37:33
In reply to Re: please be civil » Jane D, posted by Elizabeth on October 10, 2001, at 13:53:43
We need to remember that some children from alcoholic and dysfunctional homes may have been abused sexually by someone, whether it was a relative or not. That goes for boys as well as girls. Many of us may have some of the same issues that we are dealing with through self-help groups.
> > Elizabeth - Upset by the words or by the sentiments?
>
> Both.
>
> > Addicts of all kinds do cause serious, destructive, problems for the people around them.
>
> Yes, although I wonder if that would happen if they had safe, legal substitutes available to them (benzos in the case of alcoholism).
>
> > I don't see anything wrong with reminding people that if they can't give an addict enough support that the problem is often in the addict and not in them.
>
> I don't either, but the post I was referring to went much, much further than that, describing alcoholics as "debasing, disgusting and degrading" and adding that "they're not worth any kind of affection, sympathy or compassion."
>
> -elizabeth
Posted by Elizabeth on October 11, 2001, at 11:52:36
In reply to Re: please be civil » Elizabeth, posted by Rosa on October 10, 2001, at 15:37:33
> We need to remember that some children from alcoholic and dysfunctional homes may have been abused sexually by someone, whether it was a relative or not. That goes for boys as well as girls. Many of us may have some of the same issues that we are dealing with through self-help groups.
I understand that (although there are plenty of child molesters who aren't alcoholics, too), and I really feel for people who've been sexually abused in childhood -- that's just about the worst thing I can imagine happening to a person. But I would hope that would not lead to stereotypes and generalizations. Some people posting to this board are addicts, and others (including myself) have loved ones who are addicts. I'm sure you can understand how hurtful such remarks (implying that alcoholics are child molesters, calling them unworthy of love or compassion, etc.) can be.
-elizabeth
Posted by Rosa on October 11, 2001, at 14:44:02
In reply to Re: alcoholics » Rosa, posted by Elizabeth on October 11, 2001, at 11:52:36
The reference was to alcoholic and dysfunctional homes which includes substance and process addictions (alcohol and drugs, and relationship and romance addictions as well as sexual addiction).
I did not change the heading, perhaps I should have.
> We need to remember that some children from alcoholic and dysfunctional homes may have been abused sexually by someone, whether it was a relative or not. That goes for boys as well as girls. Many of us may have some of the same issues that we are dealing with through self-help groups.
>
> I understand that (although there are plenty of child molesters who aren't alcoholics, too), and I really feel for people who've been sexually abused in childhood -- that's just about the worst thing I can imagine happening to a person. But I would hope that would not lead to stereotypes and generalizations. Some people posting to this board are addicts, and others (including myself) have loved ones who are addicts. I'm sure you can understand how hurtful such remarks (implying that alcoholics are child molesters, calling them unworthy of love or compassion, etc.) can be.
>
> -elizabeth
Posted by Rosa on October 11, 2001, at 15:23:23
In reply to Re: alcoholics » Rosa, posted by Elizabeth on October 11, 2001, at 11:52:36
Elizabeth,
I did not make the original comment you were referring to.
What I said was, "we need to remember that some children from alcoholic and dysfunctional homes may have been abused sexually by someone, whether it was a relative or not. That goes for boys as well as girls. Many of us may have some of the same issues that we are dealing with through self-help groups."
Posted by Gracie2 on October 11, 2001, at 21:24:14
In reply to Re: please be civil » Elizabeth, posted by Jane D on October 10, 2001, at 13:14:57
Jane-
Congratulations on your exemplary lifestyle.
-Gracie
Posted by Lisa Simpson on October 12, 2001, at 5:43:57
In reply to Re: please be civil » Elizabeth, posted by Jane D on October 10, 2001, at 13:14:57
Yes, you are right, alcoholics and addicts do cause problems for the people around them. I can't argue with that. But *all* people who have a lot of health problems cause problems for the people around them. And that is what I think people tend to forget - alcoholism and addiction are illnesses, just as much as pneumonia or cancer - it's just that it's primarily a mental thing rather than a physical thing. Because after all people don't drink themselves into a stupor or start taking pills for no reason - they are usually suffering inside in some way to make them do it. Oh, I'm not very good at explaining myself, it's just that I feel no matter what your problem is, everyone has a right for help and sympathy. And alcoholics and addicts hurt too.
Lisa
Posted by Elizabeth on October 12, 2001, at 10:51:52
In reply to Re: Alcoholics and Addicts » Jane D, posted by Lisa Simpson on October 12, 2001, at 5:43:57
> ... And that is what I think people tend to forget - alcoholism and addiction are illnesses, just as much as pneumonia or cancer
...or depression or manic-depression. Are bipolar folks unworthy of compassion, too? They can make relationships very difficult, after all.
> Because after all people don't drink themselves into a stupor or start taking pills for no reason - they are usually suffering inside in some way to make them do it. Oh, I'm not very good at explaining myself, it's just that I feel no matter what your problem is, everyone has a right for help and sympathy. And alcoholics and addicts hurt too.
I think you did a fine job of explaining yourself.
-elizabeth
Posted by Rosa on October 12, 2001, at 17:14:33
In reply to Re: Alcoholics and Addicts » Lisa Simpson, posted by Elizabeth on October 12, 2001, at 10:51:52
What is your policy concerning the misuse of drugs? What do you consider a slip?
> > ... And that is what I think people tend to forget - alcoholism and addiction are illnesses, just as much as pneumonia or cancer
>
> ...or depression or manic-depression. Are bipolar folks unworthy of compassion, too? They can make relationships very difficult, after all.
>
> > Because after all people don't drink themselves into a stupor or start taking pills for no reason - they are usually suffering inside in some way to make them do it. Oh, I'm not very good at explaining myself, it's just that I feel no matter what your problem is, everyone has a right for help and sympathy. And alcoholics and addicts hurt too.
>
> I think you did a fine job of explaining yourself.
>
> -elizabeth
Posted by Cass on October 13, 2001, at 17:48:57
In reply to Re: Seduced and Abandoned soon to be a major motion, posted by galtin on October 9, 2001, at 23:15:40
I haven't followed everything in this thread so I don't know how much of this Kosinski talk is facetious, but I don't think Kosinski wrote trash, and if galtin had dinner with him, that must have been an interesting night. Jerzy Kosinski is the ultimate survivor even though he committed suicide. I hear that he committed suicide because he was very ill and suffering. I admire anyone who has suffered the depths of other people's inhumanity and still has the courage to talk about it (being that a lot of people try to blame the victim for their misfortune.) Here's to Kosinski.
Posted by Wendy B. on October 13, 2001, at 20:31:56
In reply to Re: Seduced and Abandoned soon to be a major motion, posted by Cass on October 13, 2001, at 17:48:57
Dear Cass,
I clarified my statement in my next posting:
>
> galtin,
>
> the only reason i spoke so 'energetically' was so that rosa wouldn't feel horrible! sorry...
>
> the reference to the 'trash' kosinski wrote was a silly response to kazoo's silliness... i admire Kosinski very much as an author.
>
> like sar, i'd love to hear the dinner-party story, especially the part about what you ate and drank and how much... what was his girlfriend like? how did you know him?
>
> best,
>
> wendyIn other words, I was just sparring a little with Kazoo when I wrote that.
(gosh, now I feel bad)
Wendy
> I haven't followed everything in this thread so I don't know how much of this Kosinski talk is facetious, but I don't think Kosinski wrote trash, and if galtin had dinner with him, that must have been an interesting night. Jerzy Kosinski is the ultimate survivor even though he committed suicide. I hear that he committed suicide because he was very ill and suffering. I admire anyone who has suffered the depths of other people's inhumanity and still has the courage to talk about it (being that a lot of people try to blame the victim for their misfortune.) Here's to Kosinski.
Posted by Cass on October 13, 2001, at 21:56:19
In reply to Re: Seduced and Abandoned, again » Cass, posted by Wendy B. on October 13, 2001, at 20:31:56
> >
> (gosh, now I feel bad)
>
> Wendy
>
>
But now I feel bad that you feel bad!!
Cass
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