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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by tina on September 11, 2001, at 15:00:20
In reply to Re: retribution » Adam, posted by Elizabeth on September 11, 2001, at 14:54:37
My thoughts and prayers are with you and your loved ones Elizabeth. I hope everyone is ok.
> > I don't know, Kat. I know it won't make a bit of difference, or help anything. Retribution, just or not, has proven time and again to be the opposite of a deterrant.
>
> I'm sure those responsible considered this act to be some kind of "retribution" for imagined crimes. We can all see how it's turned against them. Let's not make the same mistake.
>
> -elizabeth
Posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 15:00:24
In reply to Re: thinking about war » Krazy Kat , posted by Elizabeth on September 11, 2001, at 14:38:34
Elizabeth:
I'm not assuming that it is anyone in particular. I'm appalled that we're worrying about the theoretical deaths of the future instead of focussing on a tragedy that just happened a few hours ago.
And yes, it is "us" versus "them". Whoever "they" are - "they" just attacked "us".
I don't understand this lack of insight into the evil in some people and the need to defend ourselves at times. Instead we're defending the terrorists? What the hell...
Posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 15:03:02
In reply to Elizabeth and Adam, posted by Greg on September 11, 2001, at 14:43:17
I'm sorry, I know this is really sarcastic, but just because I disagree with you, I can't believe I haven't received any support from anyone in this thread. We've lost friends because of this as I pointed out.
Thanks.
- K.
Posted by tina on September 11, 2001, at 15:03:35
In reply to Re: thinking about war, posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 15:00:24
> I don't understand this lack of insight into the evil in some people
I hope I never have "insight" into this kind of evil.
Posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 15:04:34
In reply to Got some news, posted by Adam on September 11, 2001, at 14:45:17
Glad the Nyr's are O.K.
- K.
Posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 15:06:51
In reply to Re: thinking about war, posted by akc on September 11, 2001, at 14:47:36
the anger subsides, like mine usually does. But not to have any at all? I think it's better to have some and get through it. There's not much we can do anyway, as you pointed out.
Keep posting, please, if you can - you are a sensible voice as usual, calming me down...
Posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 15:09:00
In reply to I imagine..., posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 15:06:51
Posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 15:10:40
In reply to Re: thinking about war » Krazy Kat , posted by tina on September 11, 2001, at 15:03:35
well put...
Posted by tina on September 11, 2001, at 15:14:04
In reply to Re: thinking about war » tina, posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 15:10:40
I wasn't aware you had friends in the area Kat. My heart goes out to you and I, for one, am glad YOU don't still live there.
Posted by NikkiT2 on September 11, 2001, at 15:16:59
In reply to Re: I'm terribly saddened., posted by Adam on September 11, 2001, at 14:06:19
I have been sickened, and my heart has broken watching the footage today. I have seen images that have chilled me to the bone and I know I will never forget.
BUT, I ahve come here, and a post that was about sharing our love with those wh o are now in pain from what has happened today has been turned into a post calling for your Nation to go to war.
Dont you realise that the US going to war would affect a damn site more people than you think. I know the Uk will be effected, and young men will be killed in droves. Have you ever been to war?? I have close friends who have and I can assue you it is not a nice thing.
I too have seen the footage from Palastine.. but those men are in the minority, remember media is not unbiased, and if you go to war with them thousands of innocent (ie, people like you) people will be hurt, maimed and killed.
It would seem that thousands of people have been killed today. Should we really remember them with vengence in out hearts?? Wouldnt it better to send them off with love??
Nikki x
Posted by Greg on September 11, 2001, at 15:17:02
In reply to Re: thinking about war, posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 15:00:24
Kat,
I am deeply sorrowed for the innocent thousands who have lost their lives today and my heart felt sympathies go out to all the families and friends who have lost their loved ones. This will be felt by all of us for a very long time I'm sure.
I am just also saddened by the feeling I have inside that many more innocent lives will fall by the wayside before this is thru.
Believe me, I want to see these monsters brought to justice as much as you do.
> Elizabeth:
>
> I'm not assuming that it is anyone in particular. I'm appalled that we're worrying about the theoretical deaths of the future instead of focussing on a tragedy that just happened a few hours ago.
>
> And yes, it is "us" versus "them". Whoever "they" are - "they" just attacked "us".
>
> I don't understand this lack of insight into the evil in some people and the need to defend ourselves at times. Instead we're defending the terrorists? What the hell...
Posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 15:18:04
In reply to Re: thinking about war » Krazy Kat , posted by tina on September 11, 2001, at 15:14:04
Well, thank you. We'd probably be walking up the East Side today with two dogs and a cat to invade some friend's house further up the island. My mother was very emotional this morning...
Posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 15:23:39
In reply to *sickened*., posted by NikkiT2 on September 11, 2001, at 15:16:59
I shouldn't have even used the word. I meant it in the sense of "of course we're going to be thinking about war now, because we're angry", and that's an appropriate response! But very few seem to be angry.
It's much more appropriate than speaking about theoretical deaths of theoretical innocent lives, when these innocent have only been gone a few hours.
No, I'm not feeling loving - I'm angry! I'm pissed off! And if I got ahold of the people who did this, or were responsible...
War may be necessary, I don't know.
But suggesting that we somehow owe it to the terrorists to give them a special place in or hearts along with the victims - please!
Posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 15:25:18
In reply to Re: thinking about war, posted by Greg on September 11, 2001, at 15:17:02
> I know - wasn't targeting you, either. I'm just REALLY mad right now. I need something to do...
Posted by Marie1 on September 11, 2001, at 15:28:19
In reply to Re: I'm terribly saddened., posted by Elizabeth on September 11, 2001, at 11:33:39
My god, I've been a basket case all day. My husband works in New York (he commutes weekly) and he called me at 9:00 this morning to tell me to turn on the news. I watched as the jet destroyed the second tower!! then when the pentagon was hit - words fail me. I'm still in shock. I live in Northern Virginia, many people in my neighborhood are employed at the pentagon. then a friend, a governemt employee called to say there was a hijacked plane circling Dulles!! which is very close to where I live. Went to pick up the kids at their schools - who knew where the next target would be? This is without a doubt, the most horrible day in history for the US. I wish my husband could come home. At least I know he's ok. But as for my friends and neighbors at the pentagon, I still don't know who may have bbeen hurt. This is such a shocking tragedy. I don't think we'll recover from this, we'll never be the same.
Marie
> My sister goes to NYU and my bf works in Manhattan. I haven't heard anything from him, the phone lines (including cell) are all down; subway, Amtrak, NJT, and the NYC and Newark airports are all probably shut down too). I can't reach anybody in the Boston or D.C. metro areas (where I also have family), either.
>
> Needless to say, I'm a basket case. I have CNN on and I'm looking all over the 'net but I can't find out any useful info.
>
> To Greg, about possible retaliation: I was just reading an article about a new TV show in the fall. It's going to be about the CIA. One of the issues mentioned was whether the agency is still relevant in the post-Cold War era. I hope that the CIA will prove its continued worth in seeking out and capturing (or, hell, killing) those responsible without need for civilian casualties.
>
> And to Simcha: I'm having some of the same thoughts as you are -- may God, Great Mother, Allah, whatever have mercy on the dead, the people in the buildings, the people in the hijacked plans, and even the perpetrators. (Appreciate the significance of this sentiment, coming as it is from an atheist.)
>
> I'm mourning in my own way, playing and singing a requiem mass. "Give them eternal rest, Lord, and let perpetual light shine upon them."
>
> May death be swallowed up in victory, and may the mourners be comforted.
>
> -elizabeth
Posted by NikkiT2 on September 11, 2001, at 15:29:59
In reply to No one has called for war..., posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 15:23:39
> But suggesting that we somehow owe it to the terrorists to give them a special place in or hearts along with the victims - please!
I don;t think anyone is suggesting that feel anything like love for the terrorists... or pity or anything other than hatred. But you must agree that more deaths would NOT be worthwhile.
War is wrong. its is ugly and it kills. Its simple.
Posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 15:35:59
In reply to Re: I'm terribly saddened. » Elizabeth, posted by Marie1 on September 11, 2001, at 15:28:19
I lived in that area for awhile and now am in NY.
My condolences to you - I'm glad your husband is O.K..
The pentagon is perhaps the most amazing of all - a true icon set ablaze.
Let us know what you find out.
- K.
Posted by Jane D on September 11, 2001, at 15:40:03
In reply to Thanks for your concern..., posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 15:03:02
> I'm sorry, I know this is really sarcastic, but just because I disagree with you, I can't believe I haven't received any support from anyone in this thread. We've lost friends because of this as I pointed out.
>
> Thanks.
>
> - K.K.
I'm sorry you felt unsupported. I've been trying to think how to respond appropriately to this thread. Yes, we've lost friends. I don't want to also lose any friends on this board over this. You all fill a unique place in my life that my other friends, who tend to share my political views, cannot. I'm afraid that this is going to turn out like the religion thread - something we will never all be able to agree on. Unlike religion, I don't think we should have to stop discussing this. I just hope that we really can keep political differences separate from the personal here. I know I will try. I have too much respect for the people I've met here to jettison them because of their politics.All that was just long winded way of saying "lets play nice here guys".
Jane
Posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 15:41:09
In reply to Re: No one has called for war... » Krazy Kat , posted by NikkiT2 on September 11, 2001, at 15:29:59
> I don;t think anyone is suggesting that feel anything like love for the terrorists... or pity or anything other than hatred.
=== Well, yes, this actually was suggested.
But you must agree that more deaths would NOT be worthwhile.
=== Of course killing the person(s) responsible for this would be worthwhile. It would help keep it from happening again. IF, it turns out to be connected to 1993, how can you NOT justify that?
>>
> War is wrong. its is ugly and it kills. Its simple.=== It's not simple. That is why being President is difficult, along with all that other stuff you have to do.
Again, what is the other solution?
- K.
Posted by Elizabeth on September 11, 2001, at 15:42:47
In reply to *sickened*., posted by NikkiT2 on September 11, 2001, at 15:16:59
re: "make love not war:"
condoms are far cheaper than stealth bombers and loads of nuclear missiles and all the other crap. heck, even a bunch of hookers for everyone involved would be cheaper.-elizabeth
Posted by kid_A on September 11, 2001, at 15:46:29
In reply to *sickened*., posted by NikkiT2 on September 11, 2001, at 15:16:59
I am sick to death of debating the act of war, so I'm not going to opine on that anymore... But, what we are talking about is lets say, a war with the palestinians, not exactly the most advanced army... The ones celebrating were celebrating in refugee camps, not exactly the best sign if your looking to be waging a war against NATO...I dont think we live in an era where a full scale muskets and bayonets war is even conceiveable... I think the opperations will work something like this:
1. Saturation bombing of specific military, and suspected targets.
2. Continued surveilence of threat from air space, dominated by at least 5 seperate air forces... (Note: not one american plane has ever been shot down to my knowledge in the middle east...)
3. Continued bombing...
4. Military troops will be airlifted into 'hot' zones...
5. Areas will fall under the command of various military troops, guerilla forces will be fought by these troops.
We are not talking about the United States going to war with China, we are basically talking about 5 nations going to war with people who's military gear in previous wars cosisted of robes and sandals...
I dont think that there is going to be massive loss of life on the side of the 'aggressors' if that is such a word as you can call those who seek peace in light of a national tradgedy.
If you think that I feel this is some sort of great thing, as if I want to see a war in the middle east, you are wrong... I just thought I might share my opinion on how possible opperations may take place... Keep in mind that all of these nations that have sided with us, and to not side with us is obviously not something any 'democratic' country would do in any case, regardless, these countries now could be targets for terrorism, and I am quite sure that they are commited to make at least an attempt so that this does not become a reality.
Posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 15:47:53
In reply to Re: Thanks for your concern... » Krazy Kat , posted by Jane D on September 11, 2001, at 15:40:03
> I'm sorry you felt unsupported.=== That's O.K. It just bothers me that dissenters often seem to be overlooked.
You've stayed "clean." :) I wouldn't have gotten upset if the tone had stayed reverent.
It really wasn't that bad, I don't think.
- K.
Posted by Elizabeth on September 11, 2001, at 15:49:13
In reply to Re: thinking about war, posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 15:00:24
> Elizabeth:
>
> I'm not assuming that it is anyone in particular.Yeah, I know. That part should have been separate -- I was pointing out that many people have jumped to that conclusion, and what meaning this has for me. I apologise for implying that you'd said anything of the sort.
(BTW, I think it's probably foreign, not domestic, terrorism, but after OKC I'm not sure of anything.)
> I'm appalled that we're worrying about the theoretical deaths of the future instead of focussing on a tragedy that just happened a few hours ago.
Like I said...I don't think it's an "instead." Focussing on the future is a personality style of sorts; some people ruminate on the past, some live for the moment, and some look to the future. Most of us do some combination of the three.
> And yes, it is "us" versus "them". Whoever "they" are - "they" just attacked "us".
Yeah, I know. What I meant was, we shouldn't put the crimes of a few on an entire country or region or religion.
> I don't understand this lack of insight into the evil in some people and the need to defend ourselves at times.
There's a difference between retaliation and self-defense. Particularly if the "retaliation" comes in the form of an all-out massacre with civilians accounting for the majority of casualties -- that would make us no better than the terrorists.
> Instead we're defending the terrorists? What the hell...
I'm not defending them. Never meant to say anything that might even suggest that. What they did was barbaric. I hope only that we may rise above that.
-elizabeth
Posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 15:49:35
In reply to a few thoughts, posted by Elizabeth on September 11, 2001, at 15:42:47
> well, maybe not...
Posted by NikkiT2 on September 11, 2001, at 15:56:25
In reply to Re: No one has called for war... » NikkiT2, posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 15:41:09
> > I don;t think anyone is suggesting that feel anything like love for the terrorists... or pity or anything other than hatred.
>
** well I've read the posts again and still can't see that>
> === Of course killing the person(s) responsible for this would be worthwhile. It would help keep it from happening again. IF, it turns out to be connected to 1993, how can you NOT justify that?***But on this board someone stated that they should kill the whole country...
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