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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Kingfish on August 2, 2001, at 8:47:42
the sacredness of the individual versus the good of the whole.
Where does everyone stand?
I, personally, find a balance between the two to have the most satisfying outcome.
(And can this be an amicable discussion?)
- K.
Posted by AKC on August 2, 2001, at 9:26:55
In reply to The Virtue of Selfishness..., posted by Kingfish on August 2, 2001, at 8:47:42
Great topic.
To me it is about balance. We must start with selfishness. Because if we don't take care of ourselves first, we cannot then look out for someone else, or give to someone else, etc.
As can be noted by earlier posts, I am a 12-step person. We talk in AA and Alanon about it being a selfish program. I have to put myself first. I have to make sure I don't get too hungry, angry, lonely, tired. So if others have needs that need met, but mine are not met, mine must come first. What good are we to others, if we don't take care of ourselves? Before every decision, I have to ask myself, is this right for me? That sounds very selfish, but for me, it is them most critical decision.
But then, once my "basic" needs are met, at some point, I have to start giving back. Again, I'll borrow from the 12 step programs. In fact from the 12th step itself -- helping others. Recently, in the "My Turn" section of Newsweek, a retired doctor wrote in about how is preacher father would ask his kids each day if they had helped someone. I have always had these grandiose ideas of "changing the world" -- from someone who many mornings can barely get out of bed. But recently, I realize that it might mean just writing a letter to the president or my congressman letting him know how I feel about something.
And of course, we talk on here from time to time about soup kitchens, etc. When energy permits.
But it all starts with taking care of ourselves. And for me, it starts with that idea of not getting too hungry, angry, lonely and tired. And whatever it takes to take care of myself, I must do -- I must be selfish in that pursuit. In that sense, this is a "selfish" program.
Your resident hounddog
Posted by Kingfish on August 2, 2001, at 10:39:25
In reply to Re: The Virtue of Selfishness..., posted by AKC on August 2, 2001, at 9:26:55
Hello AKC. I hope your work is a little better now.
I agree. And, even from a selfish standpoint, it is good to help others, because it makes us feel better about ourselves and helps our society function. That's awfully crass I know. I have found I am naturally more compassionate than that, but take no credit for it. I think my parents are the ones who are to credit.
- K.
Posted by Greg on August 2, 2001, at 11:07:20
In reply to The Virtue of Selfishness..., posted by Kingfish on August 2, 2001, at 8:47:42
Be good to yourself first, foremost and always. Be selfish when it comes to you, it's a matter of survival. The rest will fall into place if you do.
Greg
> the sacredness of the individual versus the good of the whole.
>
> Where does everyone stand?
>
> I, personally, find a balance between the two to have the most satisfying outcome.
>
> (And can this be an amicable discussion?)
> - K.
Posted by Andy123 on August 2, 2001, at 13:02:34
In reply to The Virtue of Selfishness..., posted by Kingfish on August 2, 2001, at 8:47:42
> the sacredness of the individual versus the good of the whole.
>
> Where does everyone stand?Our society is so gung-ho into capitalism that we've gone way overboard towards selfishness and away from compassion. The "baby-boom" generation has been heavily influenced by the grotesque philosophy of people like Ayn Rand ("altruism is suicide.") Hopefully the pendulum will swing back towards folks having an outlook for something other than themselves.
More specifically, there are several issues that require alot of self sacrifice to address, and they are currently in a poor state of affairs. People who take a reasonable stance on things like human rights, wealth disparity, animal rights, and environmentalism are marginalized as impractical idealists. There are too many sick and terrible things happening in the world to be committed to selfishness.
Posted by AKC on August 2, 2001, at 13:49:19
In reply to Re: The Virtue of Selfishness..., posted by Andy123 on August 2, 2001, at 13:02:34
I was out to lunch with a summer associate yesterday who is trying to figure out how you can be a successful attorney at a big law firm, spend lots of time with your family, be committed to your community, have your value system intact, etc. In this capitilistic society Andy123 points out, if your main motivation is money -- I don't think you can do it all without the bad "selfishness."
However, to me there are two types of selfishness. There is the capitilistic greed type. Wanting more, more, more. To get it all. The narcistic type. The get out of my way, I'm running over whoever is there to get what I want. I look at young attorneys where I work who sacrifice their health, their families for what? Money, title, prestige. If they give to the community, they only do so to get something in return. Not as the parable would have them do so (in secret).
But there is a different type of selfishness. It is the type that puts yourself first so that in fact you actually can give. There is a woman in my group therapy who has no ability to say no -- to her husband, her kids, her neighbor -- her health suffers, both physically and mentally. What results, she gets sick and cannot help anyone. It is in this situation that a different, healthy type of selfishness should be practiced.
I strongly believe that we must look at each situation from our own perspective first. A friend asks us to watch her kids. Instead of thinking, oh, a favor, sure, I'll do it, I instead need to stop and think about myself first. That seems selfish, but I need to make sure that I am in a spot that it is okay for me. Back to my earlier post -- am I too hungry, angry, lonely or tired? If I am, then as much as my friend may need a break from her kids, it may be that I need to take care of myself more.
Now from time to time, I may choose to make a sacrifice. But if I have done so consciously, not from a habit of always being a doormat, then I think it is okay. What good am I to the world if I don't take care of myself?
I have no proof that part of my breakdowns were the result of the constant stress I placed on myself for years from trying to do it all. It wasn't so much a quest for the capitilistic dream of having it all. But when I was in school or on the job, I thought I must do it all -- be the best student, the best worker -- hell, that is still a problem, as can be seen by the stress of last week when I couldn't keep up the expected pace! But I'm trying to live by this principle -- putting myself first - taking a day off work, saying no to friends, admitting weaknesses, asking for help. Being selfish. I believe in doing so, I will be able to give much more than I ever was before.
Your resident hounddog.
Posted by mila on August 2, 2001, at 14:36:51
In reply to Re: The Virtue of Selfishness..., posted by AKC on August 2, 2001, at 13:49:19
selfish people are unpleasant to be with. they are usually quite rare... but then altruists are also very rare. most people fall somewhere in between and I think it is very healthy (to be in the middle of the spectrum). I only know one really selfish person, but she is an incredibly good mother to her son, so i kind of forgive her.
mila
Posted by susan C on August 2, 2001, at 14:55:39
In reply to Re: The Virtue of Selfishness..., posted by AKC on August 2, 2001, at 13:49:19
"..years of trying to do it all.." Is perfectionism a trait of BP? a long time ago before I got help and discovered I was depressed all the time and got MORE depressed two weeks before my period, PMS, I read studies that showed severe PMS patients shared a perfectionist trait....just wondering, as your post hit a nerve. That was before BPii became a common dx. Now, I look back and see when I go manic, get irritable and irrational, it is around things not being JUST how I think they SHOULD be. After this mood changes, I couldn't care less. Following this train of thought, what are the cultural expectations girls grow up with and how are they different in different countries? I read somewhere on one of my voyages on the web, that a BP study comparied Italian and French populations. Bipolar was something like 0.0% in France, 2% in Italy. (these statistics may not be large enough to be relevant?) The comment was, look at the funeral of the french premier, his wife, mistress and children all attended. While in the usa everyone was going nuts (so to speak) over clinton's affair. Does that mean if I grew up as a female in France I wouldn't have bp? Time to go, I am getting dizzy. I hope I made sense.
> I was out to lunch with a summer associate yesterday who is trying to figure out how you can be a successful attorney at a big law firm, spend lots of time with your family, be committed to your community, have your value system intact, etc. In this capitilistic society Andy123 points out, if your main motivation is money -- I don't think you can do it all without the bad "selfishness."
>
> However, to me there are two types of selfishness. There is the capitilistic greed type. Wanting more, more, more. To get it all. The narcistic type. The get out of my way, I'm running over whoever is there to get what I want. I look at young attorneys where I work who sacrifice their health, their families for what? Money, title, prestige. If they give to the community, they only do so to get something in return. Not as the parable would have them do so (in secret).
>
> But there is a different type of selfishness. It is the type that puts yourself first so that in fact you actually can give. There is a woman in my group therapy who has no ability to say no -- to her husband, her kids, her neighbor -- her health suffers, both physically and mentally. What results, she gets sick and cannot help anyone. It is in this situation that a different, healthy type of selfishness should be practiced.
>
> I strongly believe that we must look at each situation from our own perspective first. A friend asks us to watch her kids. Instead of thinking, oh, a favor, sure, I'll do it, I instead need to stop and think about myself first. That seems selfish, but I need to make sure that I am in a spot that it is okay for me. Back to my earlier post -- am I too hungry, angry, lonely or tired? If I am, then as much as my friend may need a break from her kids, it may be that I need to take care of myself more.
>
> Now from time to time, I may choose to make a sacrifice. But if I have done so consciously, not from a habit of always being a doormat, then I think it is okay. What good am I to the world if I don't take care of myself?
>
> I have no proof that part of my breakdowns were the result of the constant stress I placed on myself for years from trying to do it all. It wasn't so much a quest for the capitilistic dream of having it all. But when I was in school or on the job, I thought I must do it all -- be the best student, the best worker -- hell, that is still a problem, as can be seen by the stress of last week when I couldn't keep up the expected pace! But I'm trying to live by this principle -- putting myself first - taking a day off work, saying no to friends, admitting weaknesses, asking for help. Being selfish. I believe in doing so, I will be able to give much more than I ever was before.
>
> Your resident hounddog.
Posted by kazoo on August 2, 2001, at 23:11:27
In reply to Re: The Virtue of Selfishness..., posted by Andy123 on August 2, 2001, at 13:02:34
> The "baby-boom" generation has been heavily influenced by the grotesque philosophy of people like Ayn Rand...
^^^^^^^
Is that a fact?
K
Posted by Simcha on August 3, 2001, at 7:36:31
In reply to The Virtue of Selfishness..., posted by Kingfish on August 2, 2001, at 8:47:42
I am a member of Al-Anon. As such this program has taught me how to detach with love.
I'll try to explain.
When I am caretaking I'm being selfish in a misdirected way. I am taking care of someone else to escape my life. I am abusing another by doing things for them that they can do for themselves so that I do not have to attend to my own life. I neglect my life. My life becomes very unmanageable. I am actually hurting the people I caretake because they don't get the chance to learn how to take care of themselves. They become unaware of what their actions do in the world. I am also hurting myself because I'm neglecting my needs.
In Al-Anon we have a saying, "Let it begin with me." It is a philosophy that says that I need to take care of myself first. If I have something left over to give and if someone asks for my help I can give something to someone else. In this way I am acting out of love and compassion and not a selfish need to escape my own life. I'm also not acting out of guilt. It's true altruism at that point. Since my needs are taken care of by me I have something left to give. When I give from this space it is truly love and not abuse.
Basically it boils down to this. How can I love someone else if I don't love myself? And how can someone else love me if I don't love myself? Let it begin with me.....
> the sacredness of the individual versus the good of the whole.
>
> Where does everyone stand?
>
> I, personally, find a balance between the two to have the most satisfying outcome.
>
> (And can this be an amicable discussion?)
> - K.
Posted by Kingfish on August 3, 2001, at 8:35:56
In reply to The Virtue of Selfishness.. The Co-dependent » Kingfish, posted by Simcha on August 3, 2001, at 7:36:31
Simcha:
I like this concept very much.
- K.
Posted by Kingfish on August 3, 2001, at 8:59:12
In reply to Re: The Virtue of Selfishness..., posted by Andy123 on August 2, 2001, at 13:02:34
Ah, but parts of Ayn Rand's philosophy seem sound to me (I'm 30, by the way, Generation X. :) ) - "The man who does value himself, cannot value anything or anyone."
or
"Love, friendship, respect, admiration are the emotional response of one man to the virtues of another."
Of course, these are taken out of context, but one can certainly pick out the pieces of a philosophy that make sense and claim them for one's own. And these seem to ring true. Take care of yourself first, and then you will be drawn to others who feel the same way.
- K.
Posted by Kingfish on August 3, 2001, at 9:16:31
In reply to Re: The Virtue of Selfishness... » Andy123, posted by Kingfish on August 3, 2001, at 8:59:12
> Ah, but parts of Ayn Rand's philosophy seem sound to me (I'm 30, by the way, Generation X. :) ) - "The man who does value himself, cannot value anything or anyone."
>
> or
>
> "Love, friendship, respect, admiration are the emotional response of one man to the virtues of another."
>
> Of course, these are taken out of context, but one can certainly pick out the pieces of a philosophy that make sense and claim them for one's own. And these seem to ring true. Take care of yourself first, and then you will be drawn to others who feel the same way.
>
> - K.
Posted by kid_A on August 3, 2001, at 12:52:29
In reply to The Virtue of Selfishness..., posted by Kingfish on August 2, 2001, at 8:47:42
> the sacredness of the individual versus the good of the whole.
Have you been reading Ayn Rand? Hmm, you can go two different ways here. On one hand you can look at it through Rand's perspective (In no way do I think her perspecitve is entirely complete, but I use her as a reference to create a starting point for this side of the argument), regardless, her perspective is that you are either an individual, or you are a slave. If you follow your own voice and act out of your own interests than you are an individual, if you copy, if you emulate, if you follow, then you are a slave, you are a number, you are nothing but a lowly doppleganger to your imitated.
I don't think that this says we should all go out and do whatever we feel, but I do think it does tout individual thinking. I dont think that we should blindly accept dogma as truth, and I think we should even question Rand's vision of what individuality is. Its not the deed that makes you the slave, its your mindset, if you are a pacifist you must be one by your own design, and not because you are following dogma that tells you that pacifism is a noble cause, even though you are a pacifist, you are a slave to someone elses ideology.
Now then on the oposite side, take for example (and I'll use one citation for the opposite side of the coin as well), take C.S. Lewis's novel Till we Have Faces. This book was really meant to show the dichotomy of our actions that are in our own interest, and our actions that are for god, but I think that it makes a good blueprint for the contrast between actions for self, and actions for others.
One of the main thrusts of the novel is the idea of love, how do we define love? Love to us sometimes seems real but rather we are acting in our own behalf in the guise of love. If we love someone because they make us happy, do we really love them, or do we just love to be made happy and that person becomes the idea of happiness personafied... When we love, do we give of ourselves completely or do we expect something in return... No doubt that we always expect a little something in return, like requited love, but true love to me, means that you should give of yourself completely, with no expectations as to the returns, and really you can apply this to any action whatsoever weather it be eros or platonic in nature, whatever you give of yourself must be given freely, with no need for reward or recognition. The need for reward and the need for recognition stems from our desire to soothe the restless ego, to make ourselves into our actions, a good deed is only the deed itself, and shouldnt be done for reward, it goes without saying that we should all do good deeds, and it is natural to feel a sense of accomplishment when you have helped someone, and even nicer to feel that they appreciate your hard work, but its important I feel, to try to distance yourself from the emotion of reward. If there is truly such a thing as right and wrong, then the good deed should be natural for us to choose, otherwise we are choosing to do wrong, even when we have taken no action... The noble default should not be looked on as worthy of emotional reward...
just my two cents...
Posted by Lorraine on August 3, 2001, at 13:26:11
In reply to Re: The Virtue of Selfishness..., posted by AKC on August 2, 2001, at 13:49:19
> I was out to lunch with a summer associate yesterday ...
I wanted to chime in and say that I identified strongly with your post. In my prior life, I was an attorney, spent time in a large law firm, then moved on to running an entertainment company (COO). For me, it was never enough. I was never enough. If I climbed a mountain, there was always another mountain that was higher to climb and so my career went milestone by milestone. If I was afraid of something (social anxiety), why then I'd better master it. I went on this path until running full throttle, I worked for a highly abusive man whom I tried desparately to please. Eventually, I destroyed myself (read gracefully resigned) and fell into a bottomless depression. Clearly, the incredible stress over the two years I worked for the man (I was throwing up all night--really strong physical signs of stress) contributed to or caused my depression. And, underlying it all, was this notion of taking care of others before myself. It is one tough lesson to learn. One I take to heart. One that every day I struggle with. Thank-you for your post.
Posted by Shar on August 3, 2001, at 19:49:54
In reply to Re: The Virtue of Selfishness..., posted by Andy123 on August 2, 2001, at 13:02:34
Gee,
I had to chuckle at your characterization of baby boomers as something like selfish capitalists. The 60's (a decade in which many boomers came of age) was all about "altruism is suicide"? Make love not war? Ban the bomb? If you love something let it go? Co-op living? The Peace Corps? Those hippy dippy people of the 60's (like me)--a lot of them, grew up wanting to be helpful, contribute something to society, do meaningful work, live with a social consciousness.A lot of those folks are now talking about global warming, global ecology and the destruction thereof, and still getting called the same names (bleeding heart liberal, tree hugger, etc. in reality more amusing than hurtful) I personally became an antivivisectionist and animal rights advocate in 1981. That's when I learned about Draize, LD50, and what my chosen profession of psychology was doing to animals in the name of science.
To all who wear non-cruelty-free makeup: wanna know what they do to rabbits' eyes to make sure your makeup is ok for you? Might as well find out if you're gonna support it. (Oops, where'd that soapbox come from?)
At any rate, it seems to me, the gen after mine got a bit greedy. Oh--that's right, the "me" generation.
Shar
Posted by Willow on August 8, 2001, at 14:38:45
In reply to The Virtue of Selfishness..., posted by Kingfish on August 2, 2001, at 8:47:42
I bought myself an air-conditioner, put it right here beside the computer. May have been a bad idea been sitting here all afternoon.
I Wanna Go Too Far
Song by Trisha Yearwood(Layng Martine, Jr./Kent Robbins)
Everything in moderation, that's the way it's always been
Never gettin' out of control - never hanging it out
Always reelin' it in
I saved my money for a rainy day
But now I've had enough of playin' it safe
I wanna go too far, I wanna go too fast
Somebody draw the line so I can blow right past
I wanna spend too much, I wanna stay too late
I'm gonna roar too loud, I'm gonna be that way
I wanna play too hard, I wanna go too farI'm the one they all depend on
Sensible, predictable, and strong
But every now and then,
I feel like I've played that role too long
I need to rock the boat, I need to speak my mind
Just this once let it all unwindI wanna go too far, I wanna go too fast
Somebody draw the line so I can blow right past
I wanna spend too much, I wanna stay too late
I'm gonna roar too loud, I'm gonna be that way
I wanna play too hard, I wanna go too farI've gotta set this spirit free
That's hiding here inside
I feel like a bird in a cage
It's time for me to fly
Posted by Kingfish on August 8, 2001, at 15:33:24
In reply to Re: The Virtue of Selfishness..., posted by Willow on August 8, 2001, at 14:38:45
Ah, sounds like a good manic episode to me. Throw in a few psychotic features, like people who aren't really there, or ghosts, spirits if you will, rather like "Topper" and it's a trip...
Willow, I think you need a vacation!! ;)
Posted by Willow on August 8, 2001, at 20:00:34
In reply to Re: The Virtue of Selfishness... » Willow, posted by Kingfish on August 8, 2001, at 15:33:24
> Willow, I think you need a vacation!! ;)
Less than a month and the children will be back in school. : )
Where would I go??
Posted by Kingfish on August 9, 2001, at 8:12:36
In reply to Re: The Virtue of Selfishness..., posted by Willow on August 8, 2001, at 20:00:34
Where do you want to go? Could you go to a spa with a friend? Or to a place that is very different from where you live? A city if you live in the woods? Or a cabin if you live in the city? Something different to get a different perspective?
Can you get away on your own, or to visit a friend, even for a few days?
- K.
Posted by sar on August 10, 2001, at 1:31:11
In reply to Re: The Virtue of Selfishness... » Willow, posted by Kingfish on August 9, 2001, at 8:12:36
tejas, our tejas!
al hail the mightly state
so wonderful
so beautiful
so glamorous & great
tejas our tejas
all hail the mighty state
Posted by sar on August 10, 2001, at 16:33:13
In reply to Re: The Virtue of Selfishness..., posted by sar on August 10, 2001, at 1:31:11
i think i was being sillily drunk last night.
This is the end of the thread.
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