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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by ksvt on December 8, 2000, at 18:24:56
Nice to see there is someone down there who isn't intimidated by Tom DeLay et al.
Posted by R.Anne on December 9, 2000, at 14:21:51
In reply to Hat's off to the Florida Supreme Court!! (NP), posted by ksvt on December 8, 2000, at 18:24:56
> Nice to see there is someone down there who isn't intimidated by Tom DeLay et al.
********
I hope Gore will finally win! But the way this ping-pong game is goind I don't know anymore.
Posted by ksvt on December 9, 2000, at 16:51:58
In reply to Gore has a chance for the moment-what's next?, posted by R.Anne on December 9, 2000, at 14:21:51
> >I knew it was too good to be true. The US Supreme Court theoretically should have nothing to say about how states handle their elections, but the Repubs are going to make absolutely certain that there is never an accurate recount. Their worst nightmare is that a recount starts to show Gore ahead. This would make the Fla. legislature and Congress look all the more ridiculous if they try to by-pass the vote. The only way to make sure that doesn't happen is to make sure all those undervotes, particularly those from Miami that have never been manually counted, never see the light of day. I'm no great Gore fan, but I think he actually won this election One could become very cynical about this whole process. ksvt
Nice to see there is someone down there who isn't intimidated by Tom DeLay et al.
> ********
> I hope Gore will finally win! But the way this ping-pong game is goind I don't know anymore.
Posted by R.Anne on December 9, 2000, at 19:30:35
In reply to Re: Gore has a chance for the moment-what's next?, posted by ksvt on December 9, 2000, at 16:51:58
> > >I knew it was too good to be true. The US Supreme Court theoretically should have nothing to say about how states handle their elections, but the Repubs are going to make absolutely certain that there is never an accurate recount. Their worst nightmare is that a recount starts to show Gore ahead. This would make the Fla. legislature and Congress look all the more ridiculous if they try to by-pass the vote. The only way to make sure that doesn't happen is to make sure all those undervotes, particularly those from Miami that have never been manually counted, never see the light of day. I'm no great Gore fan, but I think he actually won this election One could become very cynical about this whole process. ksvt
>
>
>
> Nice to see there is someone down there who isn't intimidated by Tom DeLay et al.
> > ********
> > I hope Gore will finally win! But the way this ping-pong game is goind I don't know anymore.|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I agree about the U.S. Supreme Court because this is not a federal issue yet. This is getting ridiculous but I do believe Gore won, too, and that he has a right to defend his beliefs. Many don't seem to see that the process was fouled up by many votes being thrown out-tens of thousands. The machines rejected them but a voting attempt was made. I wish they would just count the votes and let them take their time-we'll just ask Clinton to stay on and he won't mind :). The republicans are just trying to BARGE IN to the presidency. Gore won by hundreds of thousands of votes and that usually means that that person wins the electoral votes, too. I saw lots of reports on election day night and there were a lot of underhanded things being reported and one of them was that the Missouri polls were supposed to stay open longer because there was a problem and the republicans got them shut down! There also was a report from Florida where a lady said that there were incorrect votes entered. I think Gore is a much better person for the job. He actually wants to get a lot of things done and help a lot of people and do great things. I heard someone on tv. say that Bush just wants to "play president" but he doesn't want to do anything. It was a comedian. I don't know what Bush or Gore will do if either wins one of these years-that's for all to see.
Posted by ksvt on December 10, 2000, at 12:20:36
In reply to Re: Gore has a chance for the moment-what's next?, posted by R.Anne on December 9, 2000, at 19:30:35
> > > >My deal about Bush is that there are so many people in Congress who are not really going to respect him because he didn't really win and more importantly, he didn't really have to do much to get there. I know that rankles politicians who did not come from the same privileged background, but may have the same aspirations. These Republicans will be fine as long as Bush does whatever they want, and he probably doesn't have the guts to stand up to them or the saavy to ignore them anyway. However, if he tries to do either, I think they'll turn on him in a minute. He may have some vague notions of compassionate conservatism or consensus building, but the radical right couldn't give a s--- about any of that. (IMHO) I also think the Supreme Court has lost whatever credibility they might have by splitting on this decision so closely, and on such ideological lines. The split suggests that the decision had little to do with the law ( which of course it wouldn't since this is not a federal question ) and everything to do with politics. The only "irreparable harm" which might ensue if the recount was allowed to continue is that someone might figure out that Bush had fewer votes. I think our system of checks and balances has run amok. I, too, think Gore is infinitely more qualified and will do a much better job. I just think his political instincts stink or his campaign skills are lacking which is why he didn't win overwelmingly to begin with. The Repubs just seem to do a much better job getting their message out, no matter how odious I might find it to be. ksvt
I knew it was too good to be true. The US Supreme Court theoretically should have nothing to say about how states handle their elections, but the Repubs are going to make absolutely certain that there is never an accurate recount. Their worst nightmare is that a recount starts to show Gore ahead. This would make the Fla. legislature and Congress look all the more ridiculous if they try to by-pass the vote. The only way to make sure that doesn't happen is to make sure all those undervotes, particularly those from Miami that have never been manually counted, never see the light of day. I'm no great Gore fan, but I think he actually won this election One could become very cynical about this whole process. ksvt
> >
> >
> >
> > Nice to see there is someone down there who isn't intimidated by Tom DeLay et al.
> > > ********
> > > I hope Gore will finally win! But the way this ping-pong game is goind I don't know anymore.
>
> |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
> I agree about the U.S. Supreme Court because this is not a federal issue yet. This is getting ridiculous but I do believe Gore won, too, and that he has a right to defend his beliefs. Many don't seem to see that the process was fouled up by many votes being thrown out-tens of thousands. The machines rejected them but a voting attempt was made. I wish they would just count the votes and let them take their time-we'll just ask Clinton to stay on and he won't mind :). The republicans are just trying to BARGE IN to the presidency. Gore won by hundreds of thousands of votes and that usually means that that person wins the electoral votes, too. I saw lots of reports on election day night and there were a lot of underhanded things being reported and one of them was that the Missouri polls were supposed to stay open longer because there was a problem and the republicans got them shut down! There also was a report from Florida where a lady said that there were incorrect votes entered. I think Gore is a much better person for the job. He actually wants to get a lot of things done and help a lot of people and do great things. I heard someone on tv. say that Bush just wants to "play president" but he doesn't want to do anything. It was a comedian. I don't know what Bush or Gore will do if either wins one of these years-that's for all to see.
Posted by R.Anne on December 10, 2000, at 21:02:43
In reply to Re: Gore has a chance for the moment-what's next? » R.Anne, posted by ksvt on December 10, 2000, at 12:20:36
I agree with what you had to say last time and thought you might also like this article I came accross:
Anger grows over vote fraud
Special to the World
TALLAHASSEE, Fla. – Busloads of union members, senior citizens, and other fighters for voting rights rolled into the Florida State Capitol Dec. 5 for a rally protesting the drive by the Bush-Cheney campaign to steal the presidential election by discarding tens of thousands of votes.
"This is America. Count every vote," declared a statement by the Florida AFL-CIO, initiator of the demonstration in the courtyard of the state capitol.
"In the presidential race, that means every vote in Florida deserves to be counted. And every counted vote must be included in the official tallies. But Gov. Jeb Bush and Republican operatives don’t want to wait for the wheels of democracy to determine the election outcome."
The labor federation warned that the Republican-majority Florida Legislature, and especially House Speaker Tom Feeney, are "mounting a partisan power play" to disregard the popular vote and select a slate of Bush-Cheney electors.
"That is an offense to every voter and a shame to our nation," the statement said. "For democracy’s sake, working families are calling for a fair and accurate count of Florida’s presidential votes."
Florida AFL-CIO President Marilyn Lenard welcomed the huge crowd. "This rally is a people’s rally," she said. "We have come here to raise our united voice and our message is simple: count every vote."
She pointed to a wall festooned with thousands of orange ribbons. "Those ribbons represent the thousands of people in the state of Florida whose votes were not counted.
Tony Hill, secretary treasurer of the Florida AFL-CIO and a former leader of the International Longshoremen’s Association in Jacksonville, told the World, "What is it going to take to win justice? Street activities. Not letting them put us to sleep with lawyers and endless court cases."
Hill, a former member of the Florida legislature, together with State Sen. Kendrick Meek, son of U.S. Rep. Carrie Meeks (D-Fla.), conducted a 26-hour sit-in at Jeb Bush’s offices last winter to protest his "One Florida" plan to decimate affirmative action.
"Our position is that affirmative action to overcome race and gender discrimination is a major issue in the presidential election," Hill said.
"You heard what George W. Bush said during the presidential debates: ‘affirmative access.’ Like his brother, George W. will try to destroy affirmative action."
The Tallahassee rally, one of 30 mass protests across the country called by the AFL-CIO, coincided with a hearing before the Florida Supreme Court in which attorneys for Democrat Al Gore asked the high court to reverse a ruling by Leon County Circuit Judge N. Sanders Sauls and order a full count of the Florida ballots including more than 10,000 Miami-Dade County ballots that have never been counted.
More than 1,000 protesters gathered in front of the Stephen P. Clark government building in Miami, Dec. 1 to protest the bully tactics of Republicans Nov. 22 in forcing the Miami-Dade canvassing board to reverse its unanimous decision to conduct a manual count of over 600,000 ballots in the heavily Democratic county. The rally was organized by the AFL-CIO, NAACP, Florida Council of Senior Citizens, members of the Democratic Party who have built a strong grassroots coalition against the GOP power grab here.
"They want to bury these ballots and Bush wants to confuse the issues," said Meek, one of two African-American women who represent Florida in the U.S. House of Representatives. The other is Rep. Corrine Brown of Jacksonville.
"Bush wants us to be good victims," Meek said. "He wants us to shut up and suffer quietly ‘for the good of the country.’ I say we’re not going to do it!"
The crowd chanted, "Count every vote!"
Meek denounced the widespread violations of the Voting Rights Act exposed in a Nov. 11 hearing by the NAACP in Miami. The Justice Department is now investigating charges contained in a nearly 500-page NAACP report on voting irregularities in predominantly African-American, Haitian and Puerto Rican precincts.
"The right to vote was a hard-fought victory for women and people of color," Meek said.
Gerald McEntee, president of the American Federation of State County and Municipal Employees, told the crowd, "Counting every vote should be – must be – beyond debate. The eyes of the country and the world are on us. What do they see? Those who have always looked to our country as the model of democracy now see a political party, the Republican Party, that will do anything, even ignore the votes of its citizens, to gain power."
Rep. Bennie Thompson (D-Miss.) denounced the Republican goon squad organized by House Majority Whip Tom DeLay. Republican staffers terrorized Florida elections officials and stopped the legal hand recount in Miami-Dade.
"Congressional staffers have to abide by some ethical standards," Thompson said. "The notion that you come here intentionally to disrupt the orderly process of an election really smacks of the ‘Old South’ where I am from."
Rep. Earl Hilliard (D-Ala.) called it a "conspiracy to just take the state of Florida" by any means possible. "What those congressional aides did, they came here not only with the intent to disrupt and close down the recounts, they used tactics of ... fear to achieve that purpose."
***********Very interesing, huh? I didn't get this from my local newspaper but rather from a coffee shop newspaper I haven't seen in eons.
Posted by Noa on December 11, 2000, at 16:55:03
In reply to News Article of Interest on Voter Fraud, posted by R.Anne on December 10, 2000, at 21:02:43
One of the things that gets accentuated for me during all of this controversy is how little MY own personal vote matters. Living in a state that was not a close call, my vote doesn't matter at all, because of the electoral college system. I don't like that. I also don't like that the potential weight of my vote is less than the weight of the vote of my counterpart in Idaho or Wyoming, because of the electoral college system. I would really like to see us pass an ammendment for one person one vote in this country. I know it is a long shot, but it seems worth the effort to me. First, however, we need ballot reform, and uniform systems of balloting for federal elections. You can be sure that will be on the congressional agenda in the years to come, even if getting rid of the electoral college system is seen as a dream.
Posted by R.Anne on December 12, 2000, at 12:26:10
In reply to Re: Election Ups and Downs, Back and Forth, posted by Noa on December 11, 2000, at 16:55:03
> One of the things that gets accentuated for me during all of this controversy is how little MY own personal vote matters. Living in a state that was not a close call, my vote doesn't matter at all, because of the electoral college system. I don't like that. I also don't like that the potential weight of my vote is less than the weight of the vote of my counterpart in Idaho or Wyoming, because of the electoral college system. I would really like to see us pass an ammendment for one person one vote in this country. I know it is a long shot, but it seems worth the effort to me. First, however, we need ballot reform, and uniform systems of balloting for federal elections. You can be sure that will be on the congressional agenda in the years to come, even if getting rid of the electoral college system is seen as a dream.
******
I feel much the same as you about this whole thing. My vote didn't even count in this state because it went to the Republicans. I think they should definitely do away with the Electoral College. I don't understand it anyway-to me it does not make sense for fairness and everyone's vote counting! It seems that with the Electoral College everyone's vote does not count. Maybe we have to get petitions going or something like that-contact our congress reps. or whoever is the person to contact.I think things look bleak for Gore now but, of course, I could be wrong. I don't know what the U.S. Supreme Court is going to do. But I am guessing from their last actions that it will not favor Gore.
No, the electoral college is not fair to all of our votes counting. I just don't see how.
Posted by Noa on December 12, 2000, at 15:28:28
In reply to Re: Election Ups and Downs, Back and Forth, posted by R.Anne on December 12, 2000, at 12:26:10
The electoral college had some merit, imho, in the context of the time it was designed, because the average voter, which, btw, was only limited to white men, did not have access to the information and knowledge that (at least according to one school of thought) was needed to make a good decision in voting. It was also a compromise, I believe between a centralized, federal government, and a federation of states with state powers. I think people were afraid to let go of state powers because they were coming from the model of oppressive centralized governemnts in Europe and Brittain, and wanted to ensure that local governments could retain power over what happens to them locally.
But in the over two hundred years since, the reality is that we are not a loose federation of states, there is more movement from state to state, there is truly more of a national culture and political reality. And, the average voter nowadays has access to more than enough information to make informed choices when they vote.
So, I am all for getting rid of the electoral college.
In order to do so, there has to be a 2/3 majority vote in congress (both houses) to add an ammendment to the constitution and then 75% of the states have to ratify it. This is a real long shot, if not impossible. I believe it is worth trying, and apparently not long ago, it was raised in the house of representatives.
What you would have to do, I think, is talk to your representative and senators, raise awareness of it and get people to write letters and postcards to their congress people. And, start lobbying state legislators as well, although they don't come into play until later on.
It is really hard to get an ammendment ratified. Look at ERA, for example.
Posted by R.Anne on December 12, 2000, at 16:13:45
In reply to Re: Election Ups and Downs, Back and Forth, posted by Noa on December 12, 2000, at 15:28:28
> The electoral college had some merit, imho, in the context of the time it was designed, because the average voter, which, btw, was only limited to white men, did not have access to the information and knowledge that (at least according to one school of thought) was needed to make a good decision in voting. It was also a compromise, I believe between a centralized, federal government, and a federation of states with state powers. I think people were afraid to let go of state powers because they were coming from the model of oppressive centralized governemnts in Europe and Brittain, and wanted to ensure that local governments could retain power over what happens to them locally.
>
> But in the over two hundred years since, the reality is that we are not a loose federation of states, there is more movement from state to state, there is truly more of a national culture and political reality. And, the average voter nowadays has access to more than enough information to make informed choices when they vote.
>
> So, I am all for getting rid of the electoral college.
>
> In order to do so, there has to be a 2/3 majority vote in congress (both houses) to add an ammendment to the constitution and then 75% of the states have to ratify it. This is a real long shot, if not impossible. I believe it is worth trying, and apparently not long ago, it was raised in the house of representatives.
>
> What you would have to do, I think, is talk to your representative and senators, raise awareness of it and get people to write letters and postcards to their congress people. And, start lobbying state legislators as well, although they don't come into play until later on.
>
> It is really hard to get an ammendment ratified. Look at ERA, for example.*****
Thanks for explaining. Seems this electoral college format needs updating. But there is an ERA now isn't there? It also took woman a very long time to get the right to vote but they have it now-if it counts with the electoral college baloney. If by any chance Gore would become president I wonder if he would look into doing away with the electoral college? :*)
Posted by Noa on December 12, 2000, at 16:21:48
In reply to Re: Election Ups and Downs, Back and Forth, posted by R.Anne on December 12, 2000, at 16:13:45
No, I may be wrong, but I don't think the ERA ever passed, did it?
Posted by R.Anne on December 12, 2000, at 18:06:57
In reply to Re: Election Ups and Downs, Back and Forth, posted by Noa on December 12, 2000, at 16:21:48
> No, I may be wrong, but I don't think the ERA ever passed, did it?
******
I just did a search on it and found a very organized and informative web site at http://www.gate.net/~liz/suffrage/eracom.htm (btw, there is much much more than this at the site)-it also mentions some ways some of women's rights have come to be in other ways:Women gained the vote in 1920 after 72 years
of the LARGEST civil rights movement
in the HISTORY of the world.
The Equal Rights Amendment
for full civil rights for women in the United States
was never passed.
Posted by Noa on December 12, 2000, at 19:25:09
In reply to Re: Election Ups and Downs, Back and Forth, posted by R.Anne on December 12, 2000, at 18:06:57
Thanks. I didn't think so.
BTW--the early women's movement for suffrage and other equal rights is fascinating. Have you ever read any of "The Feminist Papers"? It gives excerpts from many writers from very early activists to more recent.
Also, there is a biography of Sojourner Truth that is wonderful.
And PBS did a great story on Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Susan B. Anthony not long ago.
When you think about the times these women were living in, it is amazing that they did the activism they did.
Posted by Neal on December 31, 2000, at 13:49:30
In reply to Re: Election Ups and Downs, Back and Forth, posted by R.Anne on December 12, 2000, at 18:06:57
I'm ready for the Bush Presidency. Let's chop those trees down! And lets get going building those oil derricks on the Arctic Wildlife Preserve! Time's a'wasting! (oh, and let's cut the budget for mental illness research, too).
Posted by r.anne on January 1, 2001, at 0:06:28
In reply to Re: We got Bush!, posted by Neal on December 31, 2000, at 13:49:30
I don't know about his abilities to be president but he isn't bad looking. Or have I been isolated too long? :-)
This is the end of the thread.
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